Red Marines

[Canadian_F_H]

Be careful... black templars had their own codex once...

[Blindhamster]

Black Templars had less reason to have their own Codex - I know it seems harsh, but the logical approach would be either:

 

Space marine codex with rules for all 9 first founding chapters

 

Or

 

space marine codex with suppliment for each first founding chapter and some extra rules for the more divergent second or later founding chapters

 

Or

 

Space marine codex

 

Second full sized book compiling the 9 first founding and their more divergent later founding chapters.

 

 

Chaos space marines should have then mirrored the above.

[SlangWhanger]

I am against our inclusion in Codex: Space Marines. I'm also against all their Grav-cannon, centurions, thunderfire etc. nonsense that people want to see in our 'dex. For me all we need is:

Updated Scouts, termis, dreads etc.

Vehicle squadrons

A decurion thing would be nice, but I don't mind NOT having one

Maybe a little buff to our 'Chapter Tactics' i.e. Permanent Red Thirst? Or similar

 

I personally think we would loose a lot more than we would gain by joining C:SM, heavy flamer tacs being the first that comes to mind.

 

If i had to compromise i would accept a supplement to the standard codex that gave us all our characters, our own Chapter tactics, and the flavoury stuff like fast vehicles and special units, but I would not like to become part of C:SM proper.

 

Oh, and I want deepstriking Land Raiders back...

[SM1981]

If we're talking legacy I started playing Blood Angels because my cousins favourite colour was yellow, and my brothers favourite colour was blue. This left me with the red models in space crusade which happened to be Blood Angles. When we graduated to 40K / Rogue Trader tje allegiancies stuck. Back then there were no chapter specific rules, and it wasnt until the mid / late 90's when these things started appearing. Sure there was a 40K compendium some time around 93 / 94 that introduced the original Russ model (and with it a Viking / Norse feel to the space wolves), but really that was it...

 

The point I'm making is that Blood Angels will always be a derivative of the space marine tree (just as all oher chapters are), and whilst the fluff has evolved and the model / troop choices evolved with it, there are a lot of inconsistencies that could be ironed out if people just remembered that ultimately we are space marines at heart, and there is no reason why a Blood Angel should be any less capable of picking up a Grav Canon than a Ultramarine (for example).

 

This said I do concede that making certain troops unavailable / weaker / more expensive in our codex points players in a different direction when building their lists, and this in turn could be a tool that GW use to make BA players play more like BA. The issue is that none of the inconsistencies we moan about achieve that goal. They're just inconsistencies that could be solved if the rule book said "see Codex Space Marines".

[Servant of Dante]

If we're talking legacy I started playing Blood Angels because my cousins favourite colour was yellow, and my brothers favourite colour was blue. This left me with the red models in space crusade which happened to be Blood Angles. When we graduated to 40K / Rogue Trader tje allegiancies stuck. Back then there were no chapter specific rules, and it wasnt until the mid / late 90's when these things started appearing. Sure there was a 40K compendium some time around 93 / 94 that introduced the original Russ model (and with it a Viking / Norse feel to the space wolves), but really that was it...

 

The point I'm making is that Blood Angels will always be a derivative of the space marine tree (just as all oher chapters are), and whilst the fluff has evolved and the model / troop choices evolved with it, there are a lot of inconsistencies that could be ironed out if people just remembered that ultimately we are space marines at heart, and there is no reason why a Blood Angel should be any less capable of picking up a Grav Canon than a Ultramarine (for example).

 

This said I do concede that making certain troops unavailable / weaker / more expensive in our codex points players in a different direction when building their lists, and this in turn could be a tool that GW use to make BA players play more like BA. The issue is that none of the inconsistencies we moan about achieve that goal. They're just inconsistencies that could be solved if the rule book said "see Codex Space Marines".

Right. I've gotten into 3rd edition in the past months, and so I have the BA supplement. I would be OK if they went back to that format. We would still essentially have our own codex, but instead of a page for tactical squad it qould say "TACTICAL SQUAD - SEE CODEX: SPACE MARINES"

Furious Charge and fast vehicles could be rolled into Chapter Tactics, and we get all/most of the cool toys the vanilla marines get, along with the consistency in profiles a single core book provides. 

 

And we GET to pay $58 for the main book, and another $33 (hopefully) for the supplement. *sarcasm*

 

Of course, I am only in favor of this if we aren't losing a single unit or unique option (and I'm not sure I trust GW to do that).

 

I do NOT want to be Black Templared and rolled fully into C:SM, because there's no way we wouldn't lose something in the transition.

 

Edit: Wait, does this mean our forum would be rolled into the SM forum on the B&C? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. I'm out.

[Rafen IX]

Furious charge and descent of angels back as chapter tactics. While I prefer this new iteration to the d6 roll of previous I still see no point in taking away our only other 'chapter tactic' and making it a warlord trait. I believe every single other chapter has at least two rules in there chapter tactics.

And I'd prefer staying unique to codex marines.

[Canadian_F_H]

I'm nope in favor of any dumbing down or homogenizing.

 

I've played black templars since the dawn of third edition, as my brother was playing blood angels... ba were way more codex compliant compared to templars back then (post armageddon codex).

 

While I malign what happened to bt. I praise that ba have long since become more unique than they were in third.

 

Gw needs to keep its house in order for sure. But reducing ba to a chapter in c:sm while possible wouldn't be right.

[Blindhamster]

I owned both armageddon (the only 3rd ed black templar rules and they were not very early in the edition) and blood angels suppliment. Black Templars had significantly less differences from marines than blood angels, the key one was the crusade squads.*

 

Blood angels had:

Reclusiarch, sanguinary priests, honour guard (long before marines had the concept), death company, veteran assault marines, Furioso dreadnoughts, baal predators and our own version of scout squads. We then also had over charged engines and unique wargear plus a bunch of characters.

 

Black Templars got their first codex as stand alone in 4th ed... when blood angels were stuck with a crummy pdf.

 

*from a rules standpoint

[Servant of Dante]

I'm nope in favor of any dumbing down or homogenizing.

 

I've played black templars since the dawn of third edition, as my brother was playing blood angels... ba were way more codex compliant compared to templars back then (post armageddon codex).

 

While I malign what happened to bt. I praise that ba have long since become more unique than they were in third.

 

Gw needs to keep its house in order for sure. But reducing ba to a chapter in c:sm while possible wouldn't be right.

Just to be clear, I do agree with you. I think it MIGHT be possible to make BA a supplement while not getting rid of anything, but it is probably better to remain as a stand alone codex.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I am against our inclusion in Codex: Space Marines. I'm also against all their Grav-cannon, centurions, thunderfire etc. nonsense that people want to see in our 'dex. For me all we need is:

Updated Scouts, termis, dreads etc.

Vehicle squadrons

A decurion thing would be nice, but I don't mind NOT having one

Maybe a little buff to our 'Chapter Tactics' i.e. Permanent Red Thirst? Or similar

 

I personally think we would loose a lot more than we would gain by joining C:SM, heavy flamer tacs being the first that comes to mind.

 

If i had to compromise i would accept a supplement to the standard codex that gave us all our characters, our own Chapter tactics, and the flavoury stuff like fast vehicles and special units, but I would not like to become part of C:SM proper.

 

Oh, and I want deepstriking Land Raiders back...

 

This, 1000 times this. Maybe I it's because I don't do much competitive gaming, and the tournament I do go to pretty effectively removes the strongest formations by its comp system, but who cares about all the Decurions and other shiny formations? I don't play BA for their top tier formations, I play Blood Angels for their nobility, for their courageous struggle against the Flaw, for Sanguinary Guard, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Librarian Dreadnoughts, Death Company, Heavy Flamers in Tac Squads, Sanguinary Priests, Dante, Lemartes, and Furious Charge. Heck, I also play BA for what they don't have like Centurion nonsense, and the other stuff you mention.

[Quixus]

And what does that have to do with what book the BA are in?

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

And what does that have to do with what book the BA are in?

If we got folded into the vanilla marine codex we would almost certainly not keep so much unique stuff. We'd lose something. Even if it was sanguinary guard getting turned into jump pack honour guard (no death masks, no angelus bolters, no master crafting) that's not a trade I like.

 

OR some of our unique stuff would become useable by the rest of the codex and thus no longer unique. I could see CC or Librarian dreads going that way IF they still existed after such a merger.

 

That's what it has to do with what 'des we're in.

[Quixus]

 

And what does that have to do with what book the BA are in?

If we got folded into the vanilla marine codex we would almost certainly not keep so much unique stuff. We'd lose something. Even if it was sanguinary guard getting turned into jump pack honour guard (no death masks, no angelus bolters, no master crafting) that's not a trade I like.

 

Not necessarily. C:SM already has plenty of units only usable with a certain CT. They just happen to mostly be units containing only one model. There is no reason not to do it for squads beyond the crusader squads.

 

OR some of our unique stuff would become useable by the rest of the codex and thus no longer unique. I could see CC or Librarian dreads going that way IF they still existed after such a merger.

That has already happened without being in the same book. The LRC was for Black Templars only initially. Only the GK and BA used to get the Stormraven.

 

That's what it has to do with what 'des we're in.

So both your issues don't directly relate to the number of books the marines are in. If those changes were made I also would oppose the single codex for all marines, but they are not inevitable if such merger was done.

[Charlo]

I think there are a lot of mixed messages here...

 

• I think 1/3 of this is "Let's just be put INTO the C:SM"
• 1/3 is "Let's be a supplement, keep all of our stuff to save reprints"
• 1/3 is "If we do either of those MY BA WILL BE DEAD AND GONNNNEEEE!"

 

Personally, I'm okay with the second one - our codex would be functionally identical to how it is now, but we'd gain a few vanilla units/ formations. Hell I don't even mind if they had a blurb saying "detatchments with chapter tactics: Blood Angels cannot take the following units. This may prevent them for utilizing certain formations contained within Codex: Space Marines."

 

Where we have different options (Grav Cannon/ Heavy flamer Tacs for example) they can just do a datasheet that is "Blood Angel Tactical Squad" and we'd use that instead.

 

Same with Vanguard Veterans so they have hand hand flamer access etc.

 

Really though - anything I want to ally in as Red Marines is pretty much vehicles or a formation build around a certain chapter (or the Stormwing if I got some Talons) and these (beyond the fast upgrade) don't really need to be ported over asap.

 

Like Blindhamster has said elsewhere, apparently the BA Dreads Attacks are getting FAQd according to facebook - so that is a step in the right direction.

[Arkaniss]

I've long wanted a Thunderfire Cannon in the Blood Angel codex. Otherwise I'm quite content with how things stand - we don't have some codex units yet have some units they don't have in compensation. As such I'd prefer we keep our own codex - though I do remember when we shared a book with the Dark Angels back in the day and that wasn't so bad

[Charlo]

Forge world offer Quad Mortars for us - which are fundamentally the same!

 

But they also get shatter shells I think!

[Arkaniss]

Ah, cool! Thanks very much Charlo! I will look into getting one (or two!) when I can spare the money.

I amend my previous statement - I am entirely happy with the Blood Angels codex being separate as it stands now

[Charlo]

Ah, cool! Thanks very much Charlo! I will look into getting one (or two!) when I can spare the money.

I amend my previous statement - I am entirely happy with the Blood Angels codex being separate as it stands now

No problem - the only facet is that they are obviously forge world and experimental rules (my bet is until the next IA that has lots of 30k stuff being ported over to ink on pages like the Kharybdis and Leviathan) so some people may get antsy.

That and they cost £30 per mortar and 2 crew, which is a little much IMO.

Easily converted from Kataphron Servitors or just using the actual TFC models though :D

[Arkangilos]

People keep bringing up the Storm Raven and saying, "Well, only the BA and GK used to get that and now look!" But we were NEVER supposed to be the only one able to use it. The thing is, they released it with us, AFTER they released the Space Marine codex. I remember hearing all the way back from the release it was supposed to be for all space marines, not just for us. That one doesn't really count.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

 

 

And what does that have to do with what book the BA are in?

If we got folded into the vanilla marine codex we would almost certainly not keep so much unique stuff. We'd lose something. Even if it was sanguinary guard getting turned into jump pack honour guard (no death masks, no angelus bolters, no master crafting) that's not a trade I like.

 

Not necessarily. C:SM already has plenty of units only usable with a certain CT. They just happen to mostly be units containing only one model. There is no reason not to do it for squads beyond the crusader squads.

 

OR some of our unique stuff would become useable by the rest of the codex and thus no longer unique. I could see CC or Librarian dreads going that way IF they still existed after such a merger.

That has already happened without being in the same book. The LRC was for Black Templars only initially. Only the GK and BA used to get the Stormraven.

 

That's what it has to do with what 'des we're in.

So both your issues don't directly relate to the number of books the marines are in. If those changes were made I also would oppose the single codex for all marines, but they are not inevitable if such merger was done.

 

 

Well, I don't know about Chaos so I I'll take your word for it on them.

 

However, I don't think we could assume that GW would give us a "have your cake and eat it too" situation if they decided to merge our codex into the vanilla dex. My thoughts on this are informed by my experience with Imperial Guard and Inquisition. In both cases, any time that codices have been merged, it has resulted in fewer overall options and several options that used to be unique to an army now being available to everyone within that codex. For example, Armageddon Steel Legion got folded into IG and now everyone can take chimeras for platoon troops whereas before that was unique to Steel Legion.

 

Granted, Imperial Guard is a bit of a different creature than Space Marines, but still, I've seen the codex merger many times in that milieu and the results are what I've opined they would be if we were merged into vanilla marines.

[sockwithaticket]

Given how much they charge for codices/supplements/anywhere they decide to stick rules now I would most definitelty not be ok with a supplement that said 'see codex space marines' for any entries. Nor would I be accepting of being folded.

Own codex or death. Bring back Sanguinary High Priests!

Ah, cool! Thanks very much Charlo! I will look into getting one (or two!) when I can spare the money.

I amend my previous statement - I am entirely happy with the Blood Angels codex being separate as it stands now

No problem - the only facet is that they are obviously forge world and experimental rules (my bet is until the next IA that has lots of 30k stuff being ported over to ink on pages like the Kharybdis and Leviathan) so some people may get antsy.

That and they cost £30 per mortar and 2 crew, which is a little much IMO.

Easily converted from Kataphron Servitors or just using the actual TFC models though

Last I checked Thunderfire cannons were £36 each, didn't come with awesome Mk. IV crew and were made of finecast. I'd go with the official quad mortar (in fact, I have 2 to construct at some point for my siege vanguard company...).

[RedemptionNL]

I think there are a lot of mixed messages here...

• I think 1/3 of this is "Let's just be put INTO the C:SM"
• 1/3 is "Let's be a supplement, keep all of our stuff to save reprints"
• 1/3 is "If we do either of those MY BA WILL BE DEAD AND GONNNNEEEE!"

I believe the people in the third category fail to release GW could just as easily gut the soul and fluff from BA with a new stand-alone codex - they pulled a similar feat on the GK if you ask me. GW's time-proven ability to miss the expected mark and let down their customers in new and surprising ways has little to do in which format they do it.

 

So for me, when GW comes around to updating BA again, I don't care if it's a supplement, rolled into the next SM codex or a stand-alone book; as long as they do it well and they don't let us wait years for it.

[Quixus]

Well, I don't know about Chaos so I I'll take your word for it on them.

Did I even mention Chaos in that post?

 

However, I don't think we could assume that GW would give us a "have your cake and eat it too" situation if they decided to merge our codex into the vanilla dex. My thoughts on this are informed by my experience with Imperial Guard and Inquisition. In both cases, any time that codices have been merged, it has resulted in fewer overall options and several options that used to be unique to an army now being available to everyone within that codex. For example, Armageddon Steel Legion got folded into IG and now everyone can take chimeras for platoon troops whereas before that was unique to Steel Legion.

 

Granted, Imperial Guard is a bit of a different creature than Space Marines, but still, I've seen the codex merger many times in that milieu and the results are what I've opined they would be if we were merged into vanilla marines.

That might be what previously has happened, but that need not happen again. I don't mind if other marine codices get our shinies much less vice versa. The different chapters just should be balanced against each other and offer different play styles. Making one chapter marines +1 is just as bad as making another marines -1.

The different options on assault squads (meltaguns are BA only) and tactical squads (heavy flamers are BA only) as well as other wargear choices (no multimelta on terminators, no options for TDA Sgts etc. )are just weird.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Did I even mention Chaos in that post?

 

 

Looking back I see that I misread C:SM as CSM (without the colon, making it Chaos Space Marines in my mind).

 

 

 

That might be what previously has happened, but that need not happen again. I don't mind if other marine codices get our shinies much less vice versa. The different chapters just should be balanced against each other and offer different play styles. Making one chapter marines +1 is just as bad as making another marines -1.

The different options on assault squads (meltaguns are BA only) and tactical squads (heavy flamers are BA only) as well as other wargear choices (no multimelta on terminators, no options for TDA Sgts etc. )are just weird.

 

 

It's true that past experience doesn't mean that it WILL happen again, however, I tend to think that past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour, hence my reticence about merging BA into a broader general Space Marine Codex.

 

And in terms of other marine codices "getting our shinies", in my view, if that happens, the "offering of different play styles" is greatly diminished as is our uniqueness as a chapter. So that's why I don't like it. If you don't care, that's fine, I'm just trying to explain my point. And as for the "weird" option varieties, I personally like the variety.

[Charlo]

Okay guys well most of the results are in for the book. The only SUPER thing is the new Iron Hands detachment in my opinion.

 

Purely because you can get a 2+/3++/2+++ Chapter Master on a bike with a command squad that have 3++/3+++, then if you are lucky some psykers can make them T6.

 

Pretty much NO new formations - the salamanders one (laughably) turned out to be a: Single Land Raider Redeemer. No extra rules.

 

The Salamander Relics are pretty good too - Powerfist with S:D / Eternal Warrior cloak to name the best.

 

=====

 

All in all... The Psychic powers are actually the best thing here! And WE GOT EM.

 

Oh and for anyone wondering, we CANT use the 30th anniversary mini, it needs to be normal marines (he has chapter tactics).

 

He has a combi weapon, but with unlimited shots that is 18" S5 AP2 Instant Death, Gets Hot, Rapid Fire rifle (that can also be shot as a bolter, if you're insane) and a Pistol that is the same but 9". He is a FREE exchange for one marine in the army.