Redemption Force v/s Strikeforce

[Berzul]

Considering costs, and unit restrictions, both this formations can put very similar armies on the table, with both granting shoot&run or run&shoot on the landing, what makes you go for one or the other?

 

So, the DWRF gets Preferred Enemy (CSM), and can choose the turn they land in, with the drop pod for the Dreadnought arriving along the Terminators.

 

The downside is, once you choose a turn to arrive in, you are stuck with it. No way to alter that, as the game progresses. Also, the structure of the formation is a bit more restrictive than the DWSF.

 

The DWSF gets to reroll Warlord Traits (if its the primary detachment) and you can choose to fail or pass any reserve rolls (if a RWAS or a RWSF is in your list).

 

This means that the army can arrive as you see fit, which gives you a better tactical position, as you can judge the situation of the game and decide when to arrive for maximum... death-ness (but, if you bring dreads, since the rules for drop pods apply as normal, they will be arriving by drop pod assault anyway).

 

As I read and read lists on this forum, I notice not many people play Deathwing with tons of knights, or dreads. Which gives me the impression that the composition restrictions of the DWRF is not a big deal for the most part.

 

So, what makes you go for one over the other? Seeing as the difference seems to boil down to, choosing Preferred Enemy or the ability to arrive exactly when you want to.

[CovertToaster]

DWRF still auto loses turn 1 if they have no models on the table so you need to run it in conjunction with another formation. Since the other formation you want is probably an RW one of some description the DWSF/RWSF combo satisfies this while giving the RW formation a nice boost with free jinking and no downside.

 

If you think PE is a lot better than Hatred then maybe you want to try to work another formation in with it. You can use the RWSF with it but DWA effectively cancels out Summon the Death wing which is better to avoid IMO.

 

Both the DWRF and DWSF can only take 0-1 ven dreads and the inertial guidance system kinda alleviates needing locator beacons for them so DPA turn one is no big deal. Incidentally the DWRF rules override DPA so that may interest you but I kinda like a long range dread supporting the RW turn 1.

[PhilB]

I like taking DWRF because I usually take it in a Lion's Blade and you can be quite aggressive with your placement knowing they'll get full BS overwatch.

You need to trim quite a bit of fat to get a Demi-Co, a DWRF & a RWAS or 2 into a regular size game but it's often a pretty fun & aggressive way to play.

[Syphid]

IMO DWRF is for shooting with Belial and a Lion's Blade, DWSF is for melee with a generic HQ combined with Ravenwing.  DWRF Benefits from full BS Overwatch and PE on Shooting, and DWSF allows you to take DWK, Command Squad, and a Venerable Dreadnought without having to take two Deathwing squads as a tax.

[GruntAngel]

Twin link on plasma cannons + movement  after deep striking is pretty sweet. Forcing your opponent to spread his force might save you quite a few attacks from a charge on you terminators if you use the terrain and position your units well.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I chose DWSF because of several reasons:

 

- I can have 3 Librarians if I so wish. RF corners me into one of each HQ

- I can have any number of venerable dreads. If I play it as a stand alone army, having 3 Ven dreads ensures some will survive.

- Last but not least, When played as stand alone, the SF allows you to drop Dreads on turn 1, thus not auto losing the game for not having models on the table.

[Interrogator Stobz]

It doesn't hurt to put them in Lucius Pods either, for only 15 points more.  Don't disembark and the enemy has AV12 and 5+ Cover to beat before they get to hurting your Dreads.

[CovertToaster]

DWSF allows you to take DWK, Command Squad, and a Venerable Dreadnought without having to take two Deathwing squads as a tax.

This is a great reason!

 

I chose DWSF because of several reasons:

- I can have any number of venerable dreads. If I play it as a stand alone army, having 3 Ven dreads ensures some will survive.

 

Ooops missed that. One HQ and at least 2 elites is all you need so you have more freedom to choose! I will be fielding more dreads in future!

[Master Avoghai]

For me, DWRF just get a point vs SF when it comes to include termis in a gladius because you gain full BS overwatch with the other formation's bonuses..

 

Other than that, for all the reason given by Syphid or Lucifer, I prefer the Strike Force

[Harleqvin]

DWRF still auto loses turn 1 if they have no models on the table so you need to run it in conjunction with another formation. Since the other formation you want is probably an RW one of some description the DWSF/RWSF combo satisfies this while giving the RW formation a nice boost with free jinking and no downside.

 

If you think PE is a lot better than Hatred then maybe you want to try to work another formation in with it. You can use the RWSF with it but DWA effectively cancels out Summon the Death wing which is better to avoid IMO.

 

Both the DWRF and DWSF can only take 0-1 ven dreads and the inertial guidance system kinda alleviates needing locator beacons for them so DPA turn one is no big deal. Incidentally the DWRF rules override DPA so that may interest you but I kinda like a long range dread supporting the RW turn 1.

You can take more than one unit of Ven Dread with the DWSF. It's shows Elites Choices not specific units like the DWRF. Or are you meaning the fact a unit of Ven Dreads is limited to only 1 Ven Dread per unit of Ven Dreads? Edit - Also saw someone else mentioned this kind of. My bad for double stating in a way.

 

 

Edit - for the person that said Lucius patterns.

Can you take Dread Pods for the Ven Dreads in the DWSF? It kinda seemed like it only called out the one in C:DA. I was tinkering with this idea but I don't really know how legal it is.

[Syphid]

It doesn't hurt to put them in Lucius Pods either, for only 15 points more.  Don't disembark and the enemy has AV12 and 5+ Cover to beat before they get to hurting your Dreads.

 

And your other DW units can run behind the Lucius Pod after shooting for an improved cover save!

[Syphid]

 

DWRF still auto loses turn 1 if they have no models on the table so you need to run it in conjunction with another formation. Since the other formation you want is probably an RW one of some description the DWSF/RWSF combo satisfies this while giving the RW formation a nice boost with free jinking and no downside.

 

If you think PE is a lot better than Hatred then maybe you want to try to work another formation in with it. You can use the RWSF with it but DWA effectively cancels out Summon the Death wing which is better to avoid IMO.

 

Both the DWRF and DWSF can only take 0-1 ven dreads and the inertial guidance system kinda alleviates needing locator beacons for them so DPA turn one is no big deal. Incidentally the DWRF rules override DPA so that may interest you but I kinda like a long range dread supporting the RW turn 1.

You can take more than one unit of Ven Dread with the DWSF. It's shows Elites Choices not specific units like the DWRF. Or are you meaning the fact a unit of Ven Dreads is limited to only 1 Ven Dread per unit of Ven Dreads? Edit - Also saw someone else mentioned this kind of. My bad for double stating in a way.

 

 

Edit - for the person that said Lucius patterns.

Can you take Dread Pods for the Ven Dreads in the DWSF? It kinda seemed like it only called out the one in C:DA. I was tinkering with this idea but I don't really know how legal it is.

 

 

I don't see why not.  The Codex says that DWSF models must have the Deathwing rule or be dedicated transports, and as per IA2v2 the Lucius is a dedicated transport for any kind of dreadnought in Codex: Dark Angels.

[Berzul]

I expressed myself wrongly, about the Dreads. Sorry.

 

As for the reasons given, seems like the Strikeforce is the way to go on most cases. Unless you do a Lions Blade, which, by the way, I've come to realize is pretty hard, when you also try to get in a RWAS for that 12 inch no-scatter rule.

[Harleqvin]

 

 

DWRF still auto loses turn 1 if they have no models on the table so you need to run it in conjunction with another formation. Since the other formation you want is probably an RW one of some description the DWSF/RWSF combo satisfies this while giving the RW formation a nice boost with free jinking and no downside.

 

If you think PE is a lot better than Hatred then maybe you want to try to work another formation in with it. You can use the RWSF with it but DWA effectively cancels out Summon the Death wing which is better to avoid IMO.

 

Both the DWRF and DWSF can only take 0-1 ven dreads and the inertial guidance system kinda alleviates needing locator beacons for them so DPA turn one is no big deal. Incidentally the DWRF rules override DPA so that may interest you but I kinda like a long range dread supporting the RW turn 1.

You can take more than one unit of Ven Dread with the DWSF. It's shows Elites Choices not specific units like the DWRF. Or are you meaning the fact a unit of Ven Dreads is limited to only 1 Ven Dread per unit of Ven Dreads? Edit - Also saw someone else mentioned this kind of. My bad for double stating in a way.

 

 

Edit - for the person that said Lucius patterns.

Can you take Dread Pods for the Ven Dreads in the DWSF? It kinda seemed like it only called out the one in C:DA. I was tinkering with this idea but I don't really know how legal it is.

 

 

I don't see why not.  The Codex says that DWSF models must have the Deathwing rule or be dedicated transports, and as per IA2v2 the Lucius is a dedicated transport for any kind of dreadnought in Codex: Dark Angels.

 

It might just be me looking at the rules too hard is why I am personally having the not sure thoughts.

The DA codex could just be stating it needs a drop pod like the one on page 122 and not meaning the one on page 122 only.

I do really want to take Dread Drop Pods from IA Vol 2 (2nd ed".) in the DWSF/DWRF ={D>

[BlackTriton]

The rules does not consider FW model in any capacity. If FW models are accepted where you are, there is no reason to believe it would break the ''dread need a pod'' restriction.

As always FW models are a bit of a grey area in ruling.

[march10k]

DWSF+RWAS for the win...because your termies come in where you want, when you want.   The RWAS's 12" bubble also helps the bikes' survivability, they can tuck in behind some LOS-blocking terrain and/or stay farther from the enemy and still get the termies on target.

[Harleqvin]

The rules does not consider FW model in any capacity. If FW models are accepted where you are, there is no reason to believe it would break the ''dread need a pod'' restriction.

As always FW models are a bit of a grey area in ruling.

They do though. Some rules make it so you can't use Forge World items in a particular instance. Like I can't use a Vindicator Laser Destroyer in a C:DA Lion's Blade Detachment, or a Contemptor unit in C:DA specific Formations/Detachments. However I can in a CAD for C:DA.

Forge World items stated for 40k are legal to use for 40k. It's why they have it stated that they are perfectly legal to use in 40k in those FW books (some places are just sour pusses.) You just have to follow your detachments/formations usages/allowances.

 

The issue is it calls out "Units of Venerable Dreadnoughts in this Formation may only include one model, which must be given a Drop Pod (page 122) as a dedicated transport." in the restrictions in the second sentence, not just a dedicated transport. There is enough of an issue here with wording that it seems leery of it being legal (Even though I really want it to be legal.) It seems that the Codex Specific Formations and Detachments are worded against use of Forge World units inside of the Codex Specific Formations and Detachments.

And I prefer to go by the rules rather than house rules.

 

However, I realize this is spiraling off topic of the OP. My apologies.

 

 

On topic as I realize I never really stated my thoughts upon the OP.

I actually prefer to use DWSF (by itself with a few Ven Dreads or) with a RWAS(s) or RWSF. For me it's the option of being able to attempt to land DW squads as I go along the turns and having broader choice in the DW units I can use instead of being forced with a specific number each of a particular unit. Plus I like being able to use as many ofmy quite a bit over 80 TDA models when I can (even though they mostly aren't painted yet. I play a lot of games with grey/metal Angels .... ={(>  .)

 

I don't have enough Power Armored marines put together yet to do a Lion's Blade Detachment...

[Syphid]

 

The rules does not consider FW model in any capacity. If FW models are accepted where you are, there is no reason to believe it would break the ''dread need a pod'' restriction.

As always FW models are a bit of a grey area in ruling.

They do though. Some rules make it so you can't use Forge World items in a particular instance. Like I can't use a Vindicator Laser Destroyer in a C:DA Lion's Blade Detachment, or a Contemptor unit in C:DA specific Formations/Detachments. However I can in a CAD for C:DA.

Forge World items stated for 40k are legal to use for 40k. It's why they have it stated that they are perfectly legal to use in 40k in those FW books (some places are just sour pusses.) You just have to follow your detachments/formations usages/allowances.

 

The issue is it calls out "Units of Venerable Dreadnoughts in this Formation may only include one model, which must be given a Drop Pod (page 122) as a dedicated transport." in the restrictions in the second sentence, not just a dedicated transport. There is enough of an issue here with wording that it seems leery of it being legal (Even though I really want it to be legal.) It seems that the Codex Specific Formations and Detachments are worded against use of Forge World units inside of the Codex Specific Formations and Detachments.

And I prefer to go by the rules rather than house rules.

 

However, I realize this is spiraling off topic of the OP. My apologies.

 

 

On topic as I realize I never really stated my thoughts upon the OP.

I actually prefer to use DWSF (by itself with a few Ven Dreads or) with a RWAS(s) or RWSF. For me it's the option of being able to attempt to land DW squads as I go along the turns and having broader choice in the DW units I can use instead of being forced with a specific number each of a particular unit. Plus I like being able to use as many ofmy quite a bit over 80 TDA models when I can (even though they mostly aren't painted yet. I play a lot of games with grey/metal Angels .... ={(>  .)

 

I don't have enough Power Armored marines put together yet to do a Lion's Blade Detachment...

 

 

Ah, I see the issue.  I have the iPad version of the Codex and there is no mention of page reference in the text.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Ahah, I see your point Brother H; it's too pedantic a rule call for me and my group though, going to keep using Lucius Pods