Frater Cornelius Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Here's a topic that has been bugging me for a while. Each time I am trying to create an army list for my next game with EC, be it 30k or 40k SM (I play them as loyalists that survived the HH and moved on), I struggle to find something that really represents the EC. I always end up with slight variations of what other Legions/Chapters used during their time, but nothing that really identifies the army as EC (like bikes for WS or JP for BA and RG or massed infiltration for RG and AL and so forth). At this point it is somewhat demoralizing that I keep copying another identity as opposed to having one of my own outside of some names and a distinct paint scheme. Any ideas how to deal with that issue? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 The Emperor's Children were generalists, much like the Ultramarines. They strove to be competent in all manners of warfare, not neglecting any tactical doctrine but excelling at all of them equally. A good representation for that doctrine on the table would be a balanced army, a good selection of basic/tactical units with a few Assault units and some Heavy Support units. Though the forces of the Emperor's Children (or Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists, or Word Bearers, etc.) don't have to be all balanced, all the time. They would have had special task forces for special missions. Especially since you are generally not playing a full Space Marine campaign force, but just a smaller detachment. So it would be ok to play an assault force or a heavy siege force. It just woulnd't be the "typical" representative army for that particular Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4365213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic63 Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 The Emperor's Children are all about precision and speed. Book One outlines their battle doctrines prior to their descent into treachery fairly well, and it describes them as being fans of precise weapons such as Lascannons over more indiscriminate blast weapons and missiles. Their favoured heavy support squads are fully equipped with Lascannons and are called "Sunkillers". Tartaros pattern Terminator armour and recent Mark IV plate are very common as the legion was quite progressive and willing to adopt the most recent developments to further contribute to their pursuit of perfection. As a legion they are adverse to attrition, mainly because they began so small (nearly being wiped out due to gene seed corruption) so they can't afford large scale losses. Fulgrim was known to favour Jetbikes and had one of his own that he rode to battle on occasion, leading to them being a common sight in the legion. After they became Noise Marines however, things changed completely and they morphed into sound crazed lunatics who sought out battle for the thrill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4365248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Echoing what Legatus said, the EC were similar to the Ultramarines in striving to be all rounders. In memory serves, however, HH Betrayal says they did place an emphasis on fast moving units such as Jetbikes, Land Speeders etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4365249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 Oh, I like the bit about preferring specision weapons as opposed to wanting to maximize casualties per shot like IW would want to. Interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4365306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Eidolon Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I'd probably go down the line of 'fast attack' Ultramarines, as they are very much meant to be a flexible force, competent in all areas of warfare; however there is mention that they seek to master their chosen area, be it a driver, gunner or infantryman. There would of course be heavy tank columns, siege breakers and artillery in dedicated companies. I'd try and draw on the surgical strike aspect of them, by considering a bike/jet bike heavy force, styled on knights of old. Storm Raven gunships could also be an idea -- I am trying to make mine an 'Airborne' company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4365586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Once & Future Git Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Oh, I like the bit about preferring specision weapons as opposed to wanting to maximize casualties per shot like IW would want to. Interesting. That's some precise spelling there! (sorry, had to!) In a nut shell their doctrine is to be perfect. Do what the others do but do it better! Additionally, what we've got is that they specialise in set-piece warfare, where they plan for every possible eventuality and then pretty much play a game of move the pieces around. This has known to backfire... It's also very similar to what 40k Tau do, but with more choppiness and less willingness to fall back. They also do like precision weaponry which you can see with their preference for spears and swords (Eidolon's hammer being a bit of a stand out) as well as lasers (see the "sunkillers" above, I've taken a bit of a spin on this with my "Starkiller" Laser Destroyer Rapiers, still need a name for the laser Vindicator!). They also have a preference for speed, especially flying stuff like the Jetbikes example above, I also think Javelins would be favourite too.. Everything they do, they do with speed, elegance and flair, they prefer the individual (complete opposite to the Alspha's) and spar very hard. This is all really difficult to get a feel for on the table, they don't have a specific theme like the White Scars, World Eaters, Iron Warriors or Night Lords do, they're more like Ultras or Sons of Horus. They're pretty flexible and you can really do want you want. That said, I'd try to stay away from blunt instruments like Thunder hammers, Demolisher cannons, quad mortars and the like. I could also see Armoured Breakthrough being a good RoW if you want a hard hitting army as it makes all the vehicles faster and you could still take things like Jetbikes & JP Palantines for your combat options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 In a nut shell their doctrine is to be perfect. Do what the others do but do it better! http://i.imgur.com/r7X3A7t.png Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 What everyone else has said is pretty spot on (combined arms, manoeuvrability etc.). I'd just add that the Emperor's Children were a fairly 'elite' Legion in that they were known for the unusually high number of individual awards for courage an excellence won by individual warriors and units. Due to the 'geneseed crisis' the Emperor's Children couldn't compete with the more 'successful' Legions (Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Dark Angels... etc.) on the number of victories won and territories conquered, but on the individual and squad level they were right up there with the best of the best. Because of this if I was to pick one unit to represent the III Legion, it would have to be a Legion Veteran Tactical squad. Tactically flexible and elite. That's how I see the Emperor's Children :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic63 Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 I know that playing as Emperor's Children you can take "anything you want" because they aren't themed as specifically as say White Scars (bikes), Iron Warriors (Artillery & Heavy Support), or Raven Guard (Infiltrators & Snipers) but to me running a generalist playstyle is boring and ineffective. It's ineffective to run a generalist army because you have no capabilities or assets your opponent isn't used to dealing with, and its boring because your game becomes stale and predictable. If every legion army has a Paragon Praetor, 2 big Tactical Squads, Terminators in a Spartan, Quad Guns, a Kheres Contemptor, and an assortment of Sicarans/Scorpius/Laser Vindicators/Deredos the game devolves into just tossing dice at each other until someone gets unlucky and dies. Forgive me for talking so much about myself, but when I choose a legion I commit to maximizing my army's board performance based on the specialization that legion provides up to and including special characters, wargear, a primarch, and a RoW. I want them to both match the fluff, and be a potent force on the battlefield - like having your cake and getting to eat it too. Using this frame of mind, running Emperor's Children to me comes down to two major builds: 1) 3rd Company Traitors: Kakophoni form the core of the list and are the solid anchor the rest is built around - At least one unit of Terminators/Veterans is important to bolster scoring and anti-heavy vehicle and they must be mobile - A unit of Palatine Blades with Eidolon/Chaplain could lay down serious damage coming out of a Drop Pod/Land Raider - Cortus Contemptors would make solid backup for dropping Terminators/Palatine Blades - Fast Attack choices that can deal major damage on the turn they arrive from reserve can be pretty deadly (Javelins, Outriders, Lightnings come to mind) - This build can also be easily turned into a gunline, but that approach seems somewhat wasteful 2) Maru Skara Loyalists: Assault Squads as Troops (if they get cheaper, otherwise Tacticals) joined by attached characters - The only real way to justify this build on the table is if you are committed to running Loyalists - Outflanking Terminators/Veterans or Bikes - Fast Attack choices that can deal major damage on the turn they arrive from reserve can be pretty deadly (Javelins, Outriders, Lightnings come to mind) and in this list are super reliable and key to the performance of the list Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted April 15, 2016 Author Share Posted April 15, 2016 Well, you just had to bring up that point again, right? It is comments like that that make me want to re-sell my EC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Pick a RoW and then tailor your force to do that Perfectly Don't be let down, play what you want to play and hold your head arrogantly high as you slaughter the imperfect peons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted April 15, 2016 Author Share Posted April 15, 2016 Life as an Astartes of the Emperor's Children is about purity of Purpose, not superiority ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 No, in the case of the EC, its very much about being superior since they were going for absolute perfection in whatever they applied themselves to. To be perfect is to be above those who are not. Thus, the Emperors Children are about being Superior through Perfection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted April 16, 2016 Author Share Posted April 16, 2016 No, in the case of the EC, its very much about being superior since they were going for absolute perfection in whatever they applied themselves to. To be perfect is to be above those who are not. Thus, the Emperors Children are about being Superior through Perfection. If you'd read some of the loyalist EC fluff like Tarvitz you'd knew what I meant... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Life as an Astartes of the Emperor's Children is about purity of Purpose, not superiority Then brother you must find your purpose and seek purity in it, and you will be following the true path of the III Legion Astartes. Follow Tarvitz's example and trust in the Emperor and you'll have a lovely force Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4366861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Once & Future Git Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Maybe part of the problem you're having is that you want to play loyalists... all the special things that really make EC special snowflakes are on the traitor side of things. Without things like Kakophoni, sonic shriekers, 3rd Co Elite, (Eidolon & Fulgrim), all you've got is a generic legion with some pretty cool special rules for Initiative bonuses, some sub-par characters in Tarvits & Rylannor, and the Maru Skara RoW. At least you still have Palantine Blades & Phoenix Termies! That said, EC can still have a really cool army, it's just a little bit more up to you rather than the rules (thinking White Scars here). I'd probably recommend either Pride, the Delagatus RoW to get Veterans troops, Orphans of Betrayal would also be a really cool & fitting RoW for you too. Alternatively, you could go something more extreme with the Skyhunter RoW. I also really think the Armoured Breakthrough would be really good RoW, similar to the 3rd Co, subbing Kakophoni for predators, then adding in probably a Jetbike Praetor with command squad, some JP Palantines and whatever else you want. I think that would make a really good, solid EC army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4367890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted April 18, 2016 Author Share Posted April 18, 2016 Well, technically rules are not very representative. I could very well say that today I play a traitor force on the table all while being a loyalist. I just call those Kakophoni some specialized Sun Killer squad and write some awesome fluff for them. All it would require is not to take Rylanor in the same army as 3rd Company, Eidolon and Fulgrim, which it wouldn't even require as I have two different styles in mind. This was more about finding a niche that fits them and finding out what the blazes they did in the first place ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 I thought sonic shriekers were available to the loyalists too, or was I incorrect? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted April 18, 2016 Author Share Posted April 18, 2016 Yes, but 3rd can put them on any PA unit. Without it, only Palatines, Phoenix Guard and Independent Characters can get it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Personally I don't use sonic shriekers on my Loyalists, it just doesn't feel right. I also steer clear of the Phoenix Guard for the same reason. I feel guilty enough for arming some of my characters and Palatine Blades with Phoenix Power Spears. I'll eventually get around to painting some Phoenix Guard and Fulgrim, just for fun and to use if I play a Great Crusade game against a Xenos army, but it would feel wrong to use them in an Age of Darkness Loyalist Emperor's Children army. I definitely wouldn't use Kakophoni (rules or minis) in a Loyalist army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Immer means loyalist purely from a modelling perspective. His rules will say Traitor but that's just because it'll be a tough time convincing the real loyalists that they have good intentions :P Sonic Shriekers? How about superior parrying? Kakaphoni? Experimental Volkite off-shoot weaponry Eidolon? Some more awesome but loyalist commander Fulgrim? ....Well Fulgrim but without the Laer Blade I imagine :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Once & Future Git Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Well, technically rules are not very representative. I could very well say that today I play a traitor force on the table all while being a loyalist. I just call those Kakophoni some specialized Sun Killer squad and write some awesome fluff for them. All it would require is not to take Rylanor in the same army as 3rd Company, Eidolon and Fulgrim, which it wouldn't even require as I have two different styles in mind. This was more about finding a niche that fits them and finding out what the blazes they did in the first place I'm not really sure the EC had a niche, not like the IW were siege warriors/garrison troops, the Wolves were the executioners (supposedly), Night Lords terror troops and so on, To me, they're more like the Dark Angels & Ultramarines in that they have companies that can do anything you want them to. Does that make them boring? No, I don't think so, it gives a lot of freedom to build your force to how you like it. Their uniqueness comes from their background more than rules. In terms of battle doctrine, they like precision, dueling circles and individual achievement, favour of manoeuverability and speed over brute strength and so on. But really you could do whatever you wanted. I think it'd be almost cool to have a White Scars army that uses lots of Heavy support squads for example... Can you share your ideas for what you want for your army? I remember you saying you were going to have a play around with some Skyhunter RoW lists... Immer means loyalist purely from a modelling perspective. His rules will say Traitor but that's just because it'll be a tough time convincing the real loyalists that they have good intentions Sonic Shriekers? How about superior parrying? Kakaphoni? Experimental Volkite off-shoot weaponry Eidolon? Some more awesome but loyalist commander Fulgrim? ....Well Fulgrim but without the Laer Blade I imagine This is kinda what I want to do for my army. They're not going to be loyalists or traitors but going it alone. I'll try to write up some fluff and post, but what I'm thinking at the moment is a embittered survivor of the original 200 marines who rises up to take command of an independent millennial that arrived too late to the Istvaan system, seeing the betrayal they revoke their oaths to both Fulgrim & the Emperor & return to Chemos which they find under attack by Traitor millennial. Destroying them they recover the exotic sound-based weaponry they use, claim all the gene-seed stockpiles as well as the surviving population of Chemos & flee to the edge of the galaxy to start their own mini empire to ensure humanity's survival. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but there is an EC RoW where the Traitors sent out hunting parties to hunt down Istvaan survivors and cause general destructiveness. The key component of the RoW was its maneuverability and as a result, bikes and jetbikes were supposed to be the primary units. It's only one aspect of the larger Legion, but it does seem highlight their penchant for rapid, well-organized attacks meant to achieve tactical superiority and annihilate the enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but there is an EC RoW where the Traitors sent out hunting parties to hunt down Istvaan survivors and cause general destructiveness. The key component of the RoW was its maneuverability and as a result, bikes and jetbikes were supposed to be the primary units. It's only one aspect of the larger Legion, but it does seem highlight their penchant for rapid, well-organized attacks meant to achieve tactical superiority and annihilate the enemy. Nothing about Jetbikes in the Rite of war at all. It's shattered legions, so opponents permission only and is focused around recon squads, seeker squads and getting extra victory points for killing units with sweeping advance, but you can't score from objectives lol. It's super awesome fun, but not something to build your collection around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321459-emperors-children-combat-doctrine/#findComment-4368862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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