Non dark angel characters joining our units

[Jazzhands]

Trying to find out if there is any rules to clarify this situation.

 

If a librarian from c:sm joins a unit of black knights next to a dark shroud can he be overwatched when charging?

 

If a unit is mixed faction how does this effect faction specific rules?

 

I have searched codex and brb but I am still unclear. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks

[Chaplain Lucifer]

In this particular case you mention, since the Character is with a DA unit, he can't be overwatched because the target is the unit and the unit is actually a DA unit with attached character... and the target of overwatch is a unit, they can't just target the character.because it's joined with the unit.

Mixed faction units you have to see case by case where they apply. If for instance the darkshroud gave furious charge to DA models, that would mean the DA models and no one else would get the FC.

 

So, you have to analyze case by case, what do the mixed factions gain from each others.

[Jazzhands]

Great reply thanks. Didn't want to be that guy

[DarkAngeal]

In this particular case you mention, since the Character is with a DA unit, he can't be overwatched because the target is the unit and the unit is actually a DA unit with attached character... and the target of overwatch is a unit, they can't just target the character.because it's joined with the unit.

Mixed faction units you have to see case by case where they apply. If for instance the darkshroud gave furious charge to DA models, that would mean the DA models and no one else would get the FC.

 

So, you have to analyze case by case, what do the mixed factions gain from each others.

How about the reverse case, a DA librarian joined up with, say, a white scars bike squad. Can they be overwatched?

[Isiah]

What do you think DarkAngel, and why?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If it was a DA Librarian joining a Ws unit I would say no because the wording and f the Darkshroud mentions he confers X,Y and Z powers to a unit with DA faction. in this case The unit doesn't have the DA faction

[DarkAngeal]

I mean, it's cheesy, but I would argue from a literal rule standpoint that a non-da unit joined by a da character is still defined as a DA unit.

I argue this because of how the rules for preferred enemy work. If any part of a unit has the faction "preferred" then you get the reroll against the whole unit. Seems like it would be the same idea here.

[BlackTriton]

I would interpret that same rule as going against you. The rules for P.E. imply that a unit with another faction IC joined in does not have the IC faction.

 

Meaning unless a rule as a special provision like PE, a WS bike squad joined by a DA HQ is not considered a DA faction unit, and a DA unit joined by a WS HQ is still a DA unit.

[Jazzhands]

I am inclined to agree with black triton, but at least I wasn't missing an explicit ruling in brb

[Isiah]

I mean, it's cheesy, but I would argue from a literal rule standpoint that a non-da unit joined by a da character is still defined as a DA unit.

I argue this because of how the rules for preferred enemy work. If any part of a unit has the faction "preferred" then you get the reroll against the whole unit. Seems like it would be the same idea here.

Where one earth are you getting that idea from? How can adding an IC of faction x turn a unit of faction y into faction x?

 

The ONLY time that would happen is if the IC, or the unit, had a special rule that specifically allowed it.

 

Seriously, you can't apply the mechanics of one rule to back up your reasoning for another. This is a common fault in rules discussions. Quite simply, 40K rules are not written that way and everything must be considered - by RAW - in isolation.

 

Cheers

I

[shabbadoo]

Right. Preferred Enemy would only apply to models of the particular Faction. So, if a Space Wolf had Preferred Enemy: Thousand Sons, and a Thousand Sons sorcerer was hiding in a Word Bearers squad, the Space Wolf couldn't pick him out with shooting because you can't pick models out of a unit in such a way (unless the model has a special rule that allows it to do so, like a Vindicare Assassin does). However, in close combat, in a challenge, the Space Wolf would Preferred Enemy an axe into the Thousand Sons sorcerer's head regardless of the unit the Thousand Sons sorcerer is in.

[SnakeChisler]

Independent Characters are units in their own Right  - Unit Type Infantry (Character)

 

Sammael for example is Ravenwing so Charging a unit with Sammael in would trigger off the Ravenshield Rule even if the rest don't have the Ravenwing Rule

 

If he's with some Grey Knight Terminators then if he's within 6" of the Shroud they can't overwatch because they are shooting at a Unit with the Faction Dark Angels.

 

It doesn't really matter that your mixed in with faction Grey Knights your opponent cannot differentiate between the 2 with his overwatch and choose just to not shoot Sam coz thats not how shooting works also Sam now causes fear and is charging.

 

So as an example without Battle Brothers you run a Ravenwing command squad with an In interrogator Chaplain does that mean the unit now looses the Ravenwing rule for the purposes of Ravenshield? I don't think anyone would suggest that this would be the case.

 

Anyways its not that the IC confers the ability to the squad its just that when an IC joins a unit he doesn't loose his special rules and if there is no way of splitting him off from a specific rule then your getting it as a squad by default.

 

Another example

Sam scouts forward 12" you have 1st turn and land a drop pod forward of him the men get out Sam moves to join them - Can they be Intercepted?

How about the other way round a Psyker conclave comes down in a pod they all join a Ravenwing Black Knight squad - Can they be Intercepted?

 

Again you have no way in either case of being able to split the fire onto just those who arrived

[Jazzhands]

I'm not sure about the interception case but you make a very good point about the da ic without the ravenwing rule and raven shield.

 

Such a can of worms. If only we could take the librarian formation without ezekial! Its only because I want lots of bike libbys with my ravenwing for a local GT that I ask.

 

Grateful for your answers

[Harleqvin]

Inteceptor would go off because one part of the unit did arrive from reserve. It's just now there are more models in the unit. It meets the criteria for the Interceptor special rule.

[BlackTriton]

I find this discussion interesting, so i will look into it. the goal is not to prove anyone right or wrong, just to see what I can find.

 

first what is a unit: p9 from BRB: 

a unit usually consist of several models {…} a single powerful model, such as a lone character {…} is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

Rule are clear on what is a unit. Now, how does independent character interact with other units?

 

BRB P166:

“independent character can join other unit” of course but then: “while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters”

 

This mean the character is no longer treated as a separate entity, but rather all interaction is made with the unit. You could argue that the character takes on the unit faction by this rule, since he counts as a part of the unit.

 

To clarify, we will go to BRB P118:

“All units belong to one of the many faction {…}”

 

This is also very clear, and we can deduct the following from there:

-A unit must have ONE faction

-An independent character that join a unit count as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

-Ergo the unit joined by a character keep its original faction and does not gain an additional faction.

 

Now rule interaction:

Dark shroud, DA codex, p127:

“Icon of old Caliban: Friendly units with the dark angels faction {…}”

A grey knight terminator unit joined by Belial is not a dark angel unit. Neither the terminator or Belial gain anything for standing within 6” of the dark shroud. If Belial leave the unit, he then gains full benefit for himself.

 

Ravenwing support squadron, DA codex, P143

“RavenShield: When an enemy unit declares a charge against a friendly unit with the RavenWing special rule {…}”

 

Does a unit of white scar bikers gain any benefit from raven shield if Sammael joins them?

BRB P 166:

“When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself {…} the specials rules are not conferred upon the unit.”

Even if Sammael does have ravenwing special rule, the unit does not and is not eligible to the ravenshield benefit. A white scar IC joining a RW biker would benefit from the rule, since the unit is considered having the ravenwing special rule. Note that in these example, sammael can still reroll jink save and the white scar character cannot.

 

This should explain beyond any doubt how Independent character, units and their respective faction and special rule function. Any proof otherwise is welcome, as much as I like to be right, I like learning more.

 

P.S.: the preferred enemy rule does not in fact state that you get the bonus if only one model in the enemy unit qualifies. It state that the special rules is conferred to the unit if one model in the unit has it. If you have preferred enemy: Dark angels and you fire at a White scar unit joined by sammael, you do not gain any bonus from the preferred enemy rule.

[Harleqvin]

same page 118 states that a unit's faction applies regardless of how you choose your army.
 

[BlackTriton]

same page 118 states that a unit's faction applies regardless of how you choose your army.

 

Yes. A DA unit  in unbound or in Battle-forged army will always be a DA unit. It does not affect the present case in the least, but it is correct.

 

Was that a counter argument? 

[Jazzhands]

Wow. I had read all of those rule on all of those pages but now you have laid it out together it seems to make perfect sense.

 

I might even take a copy of your post to explain it to others if the question comes up.

 

Thanks blacktriton

[SnakeChisler]

1St off stealth a nice easy one, it confers to the IC & then everyone gets it

2nd fear, pretty clear here Sam gets the Fear special rule but the unit does not

 

Overwatch blocking?

Ravenshield?

I'll have a good read round therefrences quoted

 

Faction wise the IC is till faction DA and doesn't loos it

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The problem here is not about losing the faction, but it's how the others don't gain it.

Like I said, we have to see case by case, the wording and how the effects can be triggered.

[SnakeChisler]

I've re-read the references quoted and to be honest both arguments have validity

 

A DA Librarian joining a Ravenwing Unit then getting RavenShield is as mixed as Sammael Joining another DA unit and then claiming RavenShield

 

Ravenwing isn't a unit special rule so were stuck really

 

 "the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

 

OK well I'm still no further forward, I thought it did work then I read BlackTriton's post I had doubts then I re-read all the references and it looks to me like it works in both the above cases or not at all

 

For blocking Overwatch it is as equally unclear as we now have Factions in the mix

[BlackTriton]

I've re-read the references quoted and to be honest both arguments have validity

 

A DA Librarian joining a Ravenwing Unit then getting RavenShield is as mixed as Sammael Joining another DA unit and then claiming RavenShield

 

Ravenwing isn't a unit special rule so were stuck really

 

 "the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

 

OK well I'm still no further forward, I thought it did work then I read BlackTriton's post I had doubts then I re-read all the references and it looks to me like it works in both the above cases or not at all

 

For blocking Overwatch it is as equally unclear as we now have Factions in the mix

My take on it was as follow:

unit #1=RW Bike

unit #2= DA librarian on a bike

 

Unit #1 has the ravenwing special rule, unit #2 does not.

Unit #2 joins unit #1 with his IC special rule. he is now a part of unit #1 for all rule interaction, unit #2 no longer exist.

Ravenshield requirement is that a unit must have ravenwing special rule.

Unit #1 does have this special rule.

Special rule applies.

 

The fact that one model in the unit does not have the rules does not counteract the fact that the unit has it. The rule is not that all models in the unit must have it, only the unit. the unit is RW bike squad and they do have the rule. Furthermore, any effect that “targets" a unit cannot be applied to a single model and not the rest of the unit. Sammael joins DA Tactical, they charge from under the Ravenshield bubble, Sammael does not gain fear since the unit does not met the requirement.

 

Samael does not gain benefit from ravenshield if he joined Azrael to form a single unit. They both get the ravenshield effect if Azrael joins Sammael to form a single unit.

 

I hope you now agree that when an IC joins a unit, all unit based interaction with said unit is made by the joined unit. You must ignore the IC presence, his faction and his special rule that does not “confer” itself to the unit.

 However, this mean that the IC can get some nice benefit by joining a unit that does get affected by these rule, like Azrael benefiting from Raven shield by joining a Black Knight squad under a Support squadron.

[BlackTriton]

second example:

Unit #1 GreyKnight terminator

Unit #2 Bellial

 

Unit #1 and #2 begin the game in reserve, as a single unit.

since the enemy Ugly mutant (Worgen) approaches the Loyal player DarkShroud, he DS his non-scattering TDA unit right in front of the DarkShroud.

The now obviously traitor enemy open fire with las cannon upon the unit, LoS is partially blocked, providing a 5+ cover.

our Loyal player want to make a 4+ cover using stealth from the DarkSroud.

-SpecialRule read "units with the DA faction"

-Grey Knight is not DA

-Bellial is DA

-rule for IC read: "counts as part of the (joined) unit for all rules purposes"

-The unit is not DA

-Unit does not get stealth and must make a 5+ cover or 5+ invulnerable save.

 

 

Jazzhands, on 20 Apr 2016 - 01:52 AM, said:

Wow. I had read all of those rule on all of those pages but now you have laid it out together it seems to make perfect sense.

I might even take a copy of your post to explain it to others if the question comes up.

Thanks blacktriton

 

 

 

 

Good! I do love me some research, always happy when it helps others!

 

[Harleqvin]

It wasn't exactly a counter argument.
It was more stating you only half read a rule.
It would be like me saying the BRB says plasma guns are rapid fire only because I stopped reading after rapid fire.

[BlackTriton]

It wasn't exactly a counter argument.

It was more stating you only half read a rule.

It would be like me saying the BRB says plasma guns are rapid fire only because I stopped reading after rapid fire.

 

I Read all the rule, I only quote the relevant part.

I fail to see how your input is relevant, if you disagree, please express yourself in a constructive manner.

Plasma gun ARE rapid fire only. They have only one profile, compared to Missile Launcher that have 3.

you seem to have a hard time expressing yourself brother.