Non dark angel characters joining our units

[Harleqvin]

Plasma guns state after "Rapid Fire" that it's  "Gets Hot".

The rest of the rule you half quoted continued with "a unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army"

Where does it say in the rulebook that an IC looses it's faction when it joins up in another unit? Yes, it says that an IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes but it doesn't say it looses the Faction. Which can be read as that it is also affected by things that affect the unit it's joined to.
The only thing we get that has a limiter on Faction is when you are making your list (in the same paragraph you only partially quoted,) and that's a unit being put into a formation/detachment can't be of two factions.
It says no where in the BRB that the other faction is dropped when an IC joins a BB unit.

[BlackTriton]

It is not about the IC loosing anything. It is about the unit not gaining anything either.

Part one is:

The unit do not fufile the ''must be DA faction'' restriction by having an IC joined in.

Part 2 is:

A joined in character does not gain the benefit of rule that aplies to unit if the unit is not elligeble, he is no longer his own unit.

 

For a IC to gain the Shrouded special rule from the Darkshroud (and then confering it to the unit) the rule would need to state: any MODEL with the DA faction within(...).

Then the IC would be elligible even if the unit he joined is not.

 

You are sticking to a part of the rules that does not matter in this case.

Simply put, you cannot single out a model from a unit and apply to him Special rule that target a unit. He is part of the unit and you must look at the unit for rule interaction.

 

The rule are clear that some things aplly to model ans some to units ans they are not interchangable.

 

*Writen from my phone*

[Harleqvin]

Faction is not a "Special Rule" It doesn't say either way that the Faction is gained or lost is the problem.

edit -  in addition to that if he is considered to be part of the unit and all rules apply how they can be applied, and the IC is faction DA then it is viable thought that the unit is now also of that Faction. It's just now a mixed faction. Is one way that it can be read and there isn't enough to make a good ruling for as intended for either.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

It doesn't say if the Faction is gained or lost because it doesn't need to. Faction is faction, it's not a special rule. What we are trying to point is that the unit as a whole will have it's faction taken from what the unit's faction actually is.

[Harleqvin]

But the issue is there isn't anything that actually says you don't use both factions, or only one of them. Not enough to properly say it's intended that the other faction isn't considered. That I added in with an edit before I saw your post, Chaplain Lucifer.

[BlackTriton]

But the issue is there isn't anything that actually says you don't use both factions, or only one of them. Not enough to properly say it's intended that the other faction isn't considered. That I added in with an edit before I saw your post, Chaplain Lucifer.

At this point, there is nothing that will convince you.

The rules sais to use the unit rules, which implies you disregard the IC rules and that includes faction

If you are not convinced, it is up to you and your gaming group to make a decision for themselves.

 

Good day brother.

 

P.S.: the rules always state what you must/ can do, never what you cant do.

so no, there isn't anything that actually says you don't use both factions, the rules are not wrinten that way.

[Harleqvin]

It doesn't say that outright. That's an interpretation.
I am not saying 100% it's that they are both. I am more inclined to think it's considered both.
There isn't enough given to get a proper thought of intended rule here.
That is the problem.

I can see how it can be viewed either way.

[Jazzhands]

Wow. All kicked off while I was at work.

 

I am inclined to agree with triton especially as pointed out we play with a permissive rule set.

 

That said I can see how it could be interpreted the other way.

[Liberame]

What he meant is plasma guns are not rapid fire only, they are rapid fire gets hot, but chose to stop reading after rapid fire

[shabbadoo]

Hmmm.  Chapter Tactics are canceled out completely when units from different Chapter join up as one unit, so it seems reasonable that similar Faction-dependent rules are likewise canceled out.  I'm not a fan of this sort of rules loss, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.  I'd rather they stated, "Faction-dependent rules are NEVER shared with any unit from a different Faction that is joined, but are retained by each unit independently.", but even that leaves open a can of worms.  This is about as close a precedent as we are going to get.
 

[BlackTriton]

Hmmm. Chapter Tactics are canceled out completely when units from different Chapter join up as one unit, so it seems reasonable that similar Faction-dependent rules are likewise canceled out. I'm not a fan of this sort of rules loss, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. I'd rather they stated, "Faction-dependent rules are NEVER shared with any unit from a different Faction that is joined, but are retained by each unit independently.", but even that leaves open a can of worms. This is about as close a precedent as we are going to get.

 

Even your proposed wording would not applies to IC that have joined other unit as they are no longer a unit.

It would need to read "are retained by each MODEL independently"

As far as I know, faction does not applies to a model by model basis. Only to a unit.

[SnakeChisler]

I don't believe you do loose your faction when you bundle together

 

As to how specific faction rules interact the net result of this thread is that's it's unclear

 

on 1 side they don't dissappear on the other they don't pass

 

You also don't need every model in a unit to have a rule or faction based rule

 

GW's best bet would be to post demo games on how these things work, given the size of the company and the volume of rules thier putting out its not much to ask for.

[shabbadoo]

Hmmm. Chapter Tactics are canceled out completely when units from different Chapter join up as one unit, so it seems reasonable that similar Faction-dependent rules are likewise canceled out. I'm not a fan of this sort of rules loss, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. I'd rather they stated, "Faction-dependent rules are NEVER shared with any unit from a different Faction that is joined, but are retained by each unit independently.", but even that leaves open a can of worms. This is about as close a precedent as we are going to get.

Even your proposed wording would not applies to IC that have joined other unit as they are no longer a unit.

It would need to read "are retained by each MODEL independently"

As far as I know, faction does not applies to a model by model basis. Only to a unit.

That's why I stated, "even that leaves open a can of worms."

I don't believe you do loose your faction when you bundle together

I don't think Faction is lost either, just some rules may be. The "All units belong to one of the many factions..." bit from the BRB is talking only about when you buy a unit from a codex, it is of that Faction. It is in no way stating more than that, such as "When units join together, they only ever have ONE Faction." The mention of that sort of thing would be in the Independent Characters section (i.e. the relevant section, and it is not mentioned there), not in the most basic, general description section telling us what a Faction even is. As to Faction-specific rules, there will often not be a good solution, other than to use the main "parent" unit to designate some rules, and otherwise go model-by model for others, because that is going to be an issue with all of the tournament style jack-arsery of "I joined Grimnar to Mephiston, who is joined to Marneus, who is joined to Azrael, who is joined to Vulkan, who is joined to Lysander, who is joined to three Librarians and one Chaplain from different Chapters, and I just want to know how the three standards I am fielding, all of which have different Faction-specific rules, will affect my completely B.S. unit?"

The answer here is: "This is not covered in the rules AT ALL. Please submit your questions on the GW Facebook page."

[BlackTriton]

I don’t know why you would think the model would lose its faction. It obviously would not ever lose it.

The rules are in fact covered in the independent character page quite clearly.

 

BRB P166 – independent character:

“while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.”

 

Trying to find an all-inclusive answer will not do so I will take a few specific example and demonstrate how to apply this rule:

 

 

DA codex, P151 - Chapter banner : 

"Friendly units with the DA faction within 12" of a model equipped with the banner [benefit #1] in addition all friendly models with the dark angel’s faction in the same unit as the banner have [benefit #2]"

 

Given a unit of DA command squad joined by Azrael and a C:SM captain.

 

The unit is DA command squad.

The unit is DA faction and have the benefit #1.

Azrael and the C:SM captain. Have the benefit #1 because they are part of a DA faction unit.

The command squad models and Azrael are all DA faction, so they have benefit #2.

C:SM captain is not a model with the DA faction and does not have benefit #2.

If the C:SM captain leaves the unit, and stay 12” of the banner, he loses the benefit #1 as he is no longer part of a DA unit.

 

 

Given a cheese-player want to give his blood claw some extra punch/protection by including Ezekiel and Azrael, he claims his unit benefit from the Book of salvation, the lion helm and the courage of the first legion Warlord trait.

 

DA Codex P105 – Book of salvation:

“all friendly models with the DA faction within 6” of Azrael […] have +1 attack until the end of the phase.”

 

DA codex P139- Lion helm

“The lion helm confers a 4+ invulnerable save to Azrael, all models in his unit and any vehicle he is embarked in”

 

DA codex P148 – courage of the first Legion warlord trait:

“Your warlord, and all friendly units with the DA faction within 12” of him, have the fearless special rule.”

 

-The unit is one of Blood Claw, they are not model with the DA faction and they do not gain a +1 attack from the book of salvation. However, Azrael and Ezekiel are model with the DA faction, so they benefit from the +1 attack.

-The unit does gain a 4+ invulnerable save from having Azrael joined in.

-The unit of Blood Claw is not eligible to the fearless special rule conferred by the courage of the first legion warlord trait. However, the warlord (in this case Azrael) does gain the fearless special rule, and since Fearless is a conferrable special rule the unit is fearless.

-if Azrael leaves the unit, and Ezequiel does not, the unit of Blood Claw will lose the fearless special rule. Even if Ezekiel is still with them, and he is a model with DA faction, the unit he is a part of is not DA faction and this do not qualify for the Courage of the first legion. (they are still fearless because deathwing rule gives fearless to Ezekiel, and from there it is conferred to the unit, but this is beyond the point)

 

Faction is never lost, nor is it gained by a model.

Rules that target UNIT from a faction does not target MODEL from the faction when he counts as part of a unit from another faction.

 

 

Please do not confuse MODEL with UNIT, it is the very first thing you learn in the BRB, the very basest rule.

[Harleqvin]

The only thing that changes for an IC is that it ceases to be a unit of 1.
Even in the IC rules when it talks about an IC joined with a unit and that unit is wiped say in Assault phase it returns to a unit of 1 at the start of the next phase.
It never ceases to be what it is. Only that when it joins another unit it ceases to be a unit of 1.

[shabbadoo]

I don’t know why you would think the model would lose its faction. It obviously would not ever lose it.

The rules are in fact covered in the independent character page quite clearly.

 

BRB P166 – independent character:

“while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.”

 

Trying to find an all-inclusive answer will not do so I will take a few specific example and demonstrate how to apply this rule:

 

 

DA codex, P151 - Chapter banner : 

"Friendly units with the DA faction within 12" of a model equipped with the banner [benefit #1] in addition all friendly models with the dark angel’s faction in the same unit as the banner have [benefit #2]"

 

Given a unit of DA command squad joined by Azrael and a C:SM captain.

 

The unit is DA command squad.

The unit is DA faction and have the benefit #1.

Azrael and the C:SM captain. Have the benefit #1 because they are part of a DA faction unit.

The command squad models and Azrael are all DA faction, so they have benefit #2.

C:SM captain is not a model with the DA faction and does not have benefit #2.

If the C:SM captain leaves the unit, and stay 12” of the banner, he loses the benefit #1 as he is no longer part of a DA unit.

 

 

Given a cheese-player want to give his blood claw some extra punch/protection by including Ezekiel and Azrael, he claims his unit benefit from the Book of salvation, the lion helm and the courage of the first legion Warlord trait.

 

DA Codex P105 – Book of salvation:

“all friendly models with the DA faction within 6” of Azrael […] have +1 attack until the end of the phase.”

 

DA codex P139- Lion helm

“The lion helm confers a 4+ invulnerable save to Azrael, all models in his unit and any vehicle he is embarked in”

 

DA codex P148 – courage of the first Legion warlord trait:

“Your warlord, and all friendly units with the DA faction within 12” of him, have the fearless special rule.”

 

-The unit is one of Blood Claw, they are not model with the DA faction and they do not gain a +1 attack from the book of salvation. However, Azrael and Ezekiel are model with the DA faction, so they benefit from the +1 attack.

-The unit does gain a 4+ invulnerable save from having Azrael joined in.

-The unit of Blood Claw is not eligible to the fearless special rule conferred by the courage of the first legion warlord trait. However, the warlord (in this case Azrael) does gain the fearless special rule, and since Fearless is a conferrable special rule the unit is fearless.

-if Azrael leaves the unit, and Ezequiel does not, the unit of Blood Claw will lose the fearless special rule. Even if Ezekiel is still with them, and he is a model with DA faction, the unit he is a part of is not DA faction and this do not qualify for the Courage of the first legion. (they are still fearless because deathwing rule gives fearless to Ezekiel, and from there it is conferred to the unit, but this is beyond the point)

 

Faction is never lost, nor is it gained by a model.

Rules that target UNIT from a faction does not target MODEL from the faction when he counts as part of a unit from another faction.

 

 

Please do not confuse MODEL with UNIT, it is the very first thing you learn in the BRB, the very basest rule.

I confuse nothing, and I don't think that anything loses its Faction, just some of the rules related to such.  You just don't understand the point I am making, and that is likely my fault. I'm not simply drawing from my own addled perception of things, but from the most current and very concrete example of what happens when units from different Factions join together and form a single unit.

All models drawn from a given Chapter benefit from that Chapter’s Chapter Tactics rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter. If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic.

For example, ‘an Ultramarines unit’ refers to ‘a unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter.’ If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit.

 

...in conjunction with...

 

Friendly units within 12" of a model equipped with the company standard, and drawn from the same Chapter, re-roll failed Morale checks, Pinning tests and Fear tests.

 

--- Codex: Space Marines 7E

Sorry, that is just a bit of cloth for that combined unit, not matter who is in it. Sucks to be you. Oh, and various Warlord Traits will fail to target various units in a combined unit too. Oh, and any other *Chapter* specific rule.  Oh, you can call yourself an Ultramarine, or an Imperial Fist , or whatever, and you surely do belong to Faction- you just don't get any Faction-specific rules at all, because you really are effectively Factionless so far as the rules are concerned.

 

Those are the most recent rules written on this subject, and the only reason it even mentions that the combined units counts as NO *Chapter* is for the purposes of being affected by things that affect such units, such as special rules and Faction-specific rules.  All units in a combine unit are effectively neutered with regard to their identity, and regarding any identity-specific rules. Written years *after* the BRB rules, what is obvious is that the BRB does not cover these situations, so you unfortunately can not base your arguments on the very much not all-knowing BRB rules, because they outright do not deal with any of this in a proper manner any longer.  You really can't use C:DA either, because the above rules are written to replace "Faction" with "Chapter", which is what should be done with ALL similar DA rules in a further  C: DA FAQ (because the rules circumstances are EXACTLY the same), but that hasn't happened yet.  That doesn't mean we ignore it when figuring out rules for the "the grand scheme of things," but that is the path you are on.

 

I do not single out the DA specifically because, being the forerunner (and GW not being forward thinking enough to co-develop the core rules of similar armies all at the same time), DA don't actually have Chapter Tactics, ergo why I do not single them out...yet make a point of including them in a unit with the others to further overflow the can of worms; all to the point of illustrating how one has no recourse to the BRB to point out a definitive answer, because the BRB is not up-to-date with everything to begin with.  You see, C:DA uses different language than C: SM, which furthers my point that the rules in C: DA are not to be used as "the rule" for figuring out HOW ALL THINGS work, because C: DA is  very much NOT "the rule", and is very much "the exception" now.  If you want to pose an argument for what the all-inclusive solution looks like, you need to be include ALL of the rules that exist beyond just those in C: DA when coming to a conclusion that affects not just C: DA, but literally everything.

 

Considering all of this, combined units get NO Chapter/Faction specific benefits...EVAR!!!  I am really not a fan of that, but there it is.

[BlackTriton]

I see your point now. I did miss it first time around.

One i do get a chance to read the Codex : Space marine again I will find more on the subject.

 

Still, I always saw Two different chapter tactic unit as being C:SM faction, and the chapter tactic as a special rule.

The text you use to declare "combined units get no faction specific benefits", only applies to chapter tactics and units who have it, and rule that interact with it.

it cannot be use outside the context in which it exist. 

Chapter tactics of different chapter cancelled each others out, but they are and always where C:SM faction for all other interaction.

Different chapter inside the C:SM are not different faction, or did i miss where they specifically state that?

 

furthermore, the rule for my DA unit are in the DA codex and the BRB, It simply cannot be expected to take another codex ruling and applies its rule to my codex.

 

If you consider DA to be a chapter tactics, do you consider DA as allowed to take unit from the C:SM codex and applies Grim resolve to them? do you consider them as able to use C:SM faction formation? 

As far as I can see in all the rules I have read, DA is another faction, they are as Alien to C:SM rules than Eldar or chaos can be.

[Solrac]

This thread is why I don't take allies and why we can't have nice things.

[Jazzhands]

Lol yeah I wasn't big on the idea of allies but I want to take a librarian formation and all bikes plus one model footslogging just looks naff.

 

I didn't start this thread to start an argument and generally if a rule is unclear or debatable I will always play it to my disadvantage. That way if it ever gets an faq in my favour i can be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

[Ptolemy]

If you consider DA to be a chapter tactics, do you consider DA as allowed to take unit from the C:SM codex and applies Grim resolve to them? do you consider them as able to use C:SM faction formation? 

As far as I can see in all the rules I have read, DA is another faction, they are as Alien to C:SM rules than Eldar or chaos can be.

 

It's widely accepted that Grim Resolve is not a Chapter Tactic, because it is not listed as "Chapter Tactics (Dark Angels)" in the unit entry.

 

This decision annoys me.

 

But this is how every tournament that I'm aware of plays it - it's why you get so many armies with White Scars and Space Wolves death stars, because neither loses it's Chapter Tactics. Where as if you had White Scars and Iron Hands, you do.

 

It's stupid, but that's how people read it.

[Harleqvin]

 

If you consider DA to be a chapter tactics, do you consider DA as allowed to take unit from the C:SM codex and applies Grim resolve to them? do you consider them as able to use C:SM faction formation? 

As far as I can see in all the rules I have read, DA is another faction, they are as Alien to C:SM rules than Eldar or chaos can be.

 

It's widely accepted that Grim Resolve is not a Chapter Tactic, because it is not listed as "Chapter Tactics (Dark Angels)" in the unit entry.

 

This decision annoys me.

 

But this is how every tournament that I'm aware of plays it - it's why you get so many armies with White Scars and Space Wolves death stars, because neither loses it's Chapter Tactics. Where as if you had White Scars and Iron Hands, you do.

 

It's stupid, but that's how people read it.

 

It's why it's a bit weird with the new Imperial Space Marine. Any Adeptus Astartus faction that has model labeled space marine in it's unit can use it ( Tacticals and Devastator units have the models listed in it as space marine.) The model's rules don't say it's a C:SM faction only, just that it replaces a normal space marine model (so no replacing an assault marine. lqtm.) But the model in it's rules calls out Chapter Tactics and Combat Patrol and says to seek info in C:SM for those two items...

[shabbadoo]

Lol yeah I wasn't big on the idea of allies but I want to take a librarian formation and all bikes plus one model footslogging just looks naff.

 

I didn't start this thread to start an argument and generally if a rule is unclear or debatable I will always play it to my disadvantage. That way if it ever gets an faq in my favour i can be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

Don't worry about starting an argument, as I don' think of it as that, and hopefully nobody else does either.  Invariably when a question thread gets posted, somebody will either know the answer to it, or it will cause many of us delve into the rules and figure out what is there, and what is not, when the answer is not so obvious.

 

The main point that has been discovered here is, at least for Space Marines, the term "Faction" is no longer being used to govern special rules transfer between allied units, but solely for the purposes of what units can be included in individual Detachments/Formations.  DA and the other non-C: SM Chapters are the anomaly now, so people will no doubt rules lawyer the hell out it by saying, "It doesn't say "Chapter Tactics"; it says "Faction", so the rules work!", when the latest codex makes it utterly obvious how it all works. And so we'll just have to listen to it until GW never publishes an FAQ on it...er...I mean...until GW publishes new editions of the extraneous codexes that match the format of C: SM.  Until then we have about as definitive an answer as we will get.

[Jazzhands]

Thanks.

 

I know that this has mainly been a rules debate (and we all know fluff rarely matches RAW) but do non C:SM chapters really have so little regard for the codex astaries that they disregard all its teachings?

 

Ah maybe that is a debate for another day and another thread.

[SnakeChisler]

They published the SM dex a week before the DA one so as has been said the language within codex Space Marines is internal to itself

 

The decision has obviously been made for Dex's like Wolves & DA to be kept seperate

 

Anyways another gnarly one came up at the weekend, the Chaplain on a bike is Obj-sec does that pass to the unit? Or does he loose it?

 

On a more fluff based note reading the 40k books you can see where doctrines came from and how they've really tried to combine this with chapter based bonuses.

 

Shame all this can get railroaded by people cheesing the system, the Angels of Death is going to cause some real angst.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, I think that will happen.  The codex language is indeed internal.  I just think GW screwed up by not using the same language for similar rules, as then it would be obvious not only how everything works, but how everything works (or not) when combined.  Remember that different people work on different codexes, and apparently the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, and vice-versa. And so we have this cluster-%#$!.  GW really has been doing a better job with uniformity of rules and rules language across the BRB and codexes, but they definitely dropped the ball here.

 

Wow. OBSEC. Never had that situation pop up.  Nothing says OBSEC is lost, and nothing says it is passed on to a joined unit either.  So, there is no answer (that I could find at least).  I would say that the model (s) with OBSEC retains it, but it must be the one (s) within range of the objective to control the objective. That seems very fair to me.