Alexis Polux joining unit deep striking via Void Commander?

[Bob Hunk]

Hi all, my question is as follows.

Alexis Polux has the 'Void Commander' rule that states (among other things):

In addition, one Infantry type unit with the Legiones Astartes (Imperial Fists) special rule in an army containing Alexis Polux may gain the Deep Strike special rule

So could Polux and a Consol join a unit of Breachers in reserve before the game starts, then grant the Breachers Deep Strike, which would then also extend to himself and the Consol, as they are part of the unit when the rule is granted to the unit?

I appreciate that if Polux joined a unit that naturally had Deep Strike anyway then he then wouldn't gain it too as it doesn't transfer, but since he's already part of the unit in the above example when the rule is given, I believe he gets it too...?

Ignoring the question of whether or not this is a sound tactic, is it a legal one? I think it is, but can anyone enlighten me on any rules nuance I may have missed that prevents this? Thanks in advance for any help.

[Caillum]

Deep Strike doesn't confer from units/models to other units/models.

 

Page 162 of BRB, second paragraph: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule..."

[apologist]

'Polux and any unit he has joined may opt to pass or fail any Morale checks or Pinning tests they are required to make. In addition, one Infantry type unit with the Legiones Astartes (Imperial Fists) special rule in an army containing Alexis Polux may gain the Deep Strike special rule (noted as being via Teleportation where this is a factor in the type of game being played).'

 

I think the critical thing is if Polux becomes part of the unit. As Caillum says,

 

'In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.'

 

However, I think it's a bit vague as to whether ICs joining a unit become part of it, as Polux's rules gives the unit Deep Strike. If he joins and becomes part ofhte unit, he would then have the Deep Strike rule too.

 

Other relevant bits:

 

'Joining and Leaving a Unit

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit [...] in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.[...]
If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start
of the following phase. While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.'

 

Which implies the character does become part of the unit (i.e. 'joining' is equal to 'being part of').

 

'Combined Reserve Units

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. [...] when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.'

 

Which implies they're separate, and introduces the idea of a combined unit :\

 

Given the rules are vague, I'd err on the side of the background, which makes Polux out to be a hero that leads from the front, and suggest that the option is open to him (and any other independent characters) to joins a unit in reserve and become part of it. He can then apply the Deep Strike special rule to the unit including himself (and other ICs), as part of the unit.

[Kastor Krieg]

Wait, what? How are you reading "in an army, one unit containing Alexis Polux, may gain [...]" out of that?

 

It's fairly obvious that it's "one unit, in an army containing Alexis Polux, may gain [...]". Ergo, if your army has Polux, pick a unit that doesn't have DS, slap it on them, done. That's it. Has nothing to do with Polux joining a unit.

[MakoBoy88]

I wouldn't say Polux gets it. He gives it to another unit.

 

Although you could give it to him, and join him to a terminator squad that can DS and boom.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I read it Polux and a unit can deep strike together including the SG RoW .

[Kastor Krieg]

I wouldn't say Polux gets it. He gives it to another unit.

 

Although you could give it to him, and join him to a terminator squad that can DS and boom.

Yes, exactly. Polux-as-a-unit can get it. Which would be fitting since his armour is made from scrapped TDA anyway.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think a lot of people are missing the main gist of the question, which is really order of operations. The questions is this: can you attach Polux to a squad during deployment and then give it Deepstrike, or do you have to give a unit deepstrike first?

 

The rule doesn't set out specific criteria for giving Deepstrike, so yes, he can 

[Kastor Krieg]

I think a lot of people are missing the main gist of the question, which is really order of operations. The questions is this: can you attach Polux to a squad during deployment and then give it Deepstrike, or do you have to give a unit deepstrike first?

 

The rule doesn't set out specific criteria for giving Deepstrike, so yes, he can 

Not really. One, there is nothing like an order of operations in the rules anymore. Forget about that term, please.

 

Two, the rule speaks about the army - I would read this as "at list creation". Not deployment. You pay for Polux, this gives one unit of your choice Deep Strike.

 

Then, at the table, you deploy Polux wherever, but DS is not conferred. The only way for him to have it, is in previous step to pick him as "the unit".

[MakoBoy88]

And he certainly can't do it with Stone Gauntlet. Which is annoying.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

It's the exact same with some people believing that Dynat could join a unit he bestows DS upon via Hammerstrike Assault.

Nope.

Same thing with Polux really.

DS doesn't confer from unit to unit, and both units would need to have the DS USR on them before they could DS together.

 

There's no ... 'But I am reading it that way .... lalala'

 

Funny though this question arises once a week or so. Like ... beating a dead (space-) horse ... 

[Bob Hunk]

Haha, I seemed to have caused a lot of confusion here, sorry about that! Apologist and SkimaskMohawk seem to get where I'm coming from.

Just to reiterate, I totally and 100% understand and agree that if Polux joined a unit that already had Deep Strike then he would not get it too, because it doesn't transfer. That's totally clear. :)

But let me describe again what I think happens:

1. I write and army list that includes Polux and the Breachers.
2. During deployment I leave the Breachers and Polux in reserve.
3. Polux joins the Breachers in reserve. They are now counted as a single unit for rules (and reserves) purposes.
4. Polux grants the Breacher unit Deep Strike. As he's an Independent Character that has joined the Breacher unit then he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes (as per the quote in Apologist's answer above). Polux is not gaining Deep Strike from the Breachers, he's receiving it simultaneously when they receive it as he's explicitly part of the unit at the same time.
5. The Breacher unit (including Polux) now enters Deep Strike reserve.

So, that's what I think happens. Am I wrong? If so, why? :)

Not really. One, there is nothing like an order of operations in the rules anymore. Forget about that term, please.

Ok. :)

Two, the rule speaks about the army - I would read this as "at list creation". Not deployment. You pay for Polux, this gives one unit of your choice Deep Strike.

Then, at the table, you deploy Polux wherever, but DS is not conferred. The only way for him to have it, is in previous step to pick him as "the unit".

But isn't what you've just described essentially an inferred order of operations? ;)

Really this is no different from a Warlord Trait granting 'Outflank' or whatever, and that happens during deployment, not during list building.

Funny though this question arises once a week or so. Like ... beating a dead (space-) horse ...

Apologies if this is a reoccurring topic. I searched this forum but couldn't find anything relevant to the terms 'Polux' or 'Void Commander'. If you can please link me to any of the threads from the last few weeks I'd be interested to see what conclusion was reached there. :)

[Caillum]

This should settle the debate...

 

Page 166 or BRB, Independent Characters

Special Rules

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit are only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them." Emphasis mine.

 

Like I quoted earlier, all models in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule. This is unlike Acute Senses, where "If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule...", i.e. the whole unit has the Acute Senses rule.

 

Polux can grant a unit Deep Strike. But if he joins the nominated unit in Reserves, he (and the unit) won't then be able to Deep Strike, because Polux doesn't have the Deep Strike rule; they'll have to walk on from the board edge.

 

This is an old discussion from the 40k rules forums, which is why you haven't found anything in the 30k forums. :)

[apologist]

The critical point is that Polux grants the rule to the unit at an indeterminate point; so whether he's part of the unit at the point he grants it is what matters; as suggested by point 4 of Bob_Hunk's answer above.

 

My opinion is simply that the wording's too vague to give a definitive answer; but my personal inclination would be that Polux can grant the rule to a unit to he joins prior to deployment. I've no justification for that beyond it seems more heroic and cool :)

[Unknown Legionnaire]

There's not even any one good argument why the rule would the transferred.

 

It's bloody RAW, the DS USR does not confer from one unit to another, regardless of when in space and time they decide to team up.

 

What's so difficult about it ?

 

Lol, matter of factly this is the very reason I don't go to 40k tournaments any more .... senseless rules interpreting and wishlisting all day long.

[Lord Blackwood]

you  sound upset would you like a hug  ? 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Yes please !! Two !

[Adra'Melek]

The transfer to IC is irrelevant in the question. In the same way the unit and IC would be effected by a psykic blessing, this would apply to the entire unit, including the character IF he had already joined them. However, as I doesn't say "during deployment" I would say it's pre game. So no, it wouldn't apply to him and a unit. Think of it as him calling in reinforcements rather than coming in himself.

 

The outflank thing is a bad example as you do Warlord trait before deployment, not during it, and outflank transfers to the IC/unit.

[Bob Hunk]

This should settle the debate...

Page 166 or BRB, Independent Characters

Special Rules

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit are only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them." Emphasis mine.

Like I quoted earlier, all models in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule. This is unlike Acute Senses, where "If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule...", i.e. the whole unit has the Acute Senses rule.

Polux can grant a unit Deep Strike. But if he joins the nominated unit in Reserves, he (and the unit) won't then be able to Deep Strike, because Polux doesn't have the Deep Strike rule; they'll have to walk on from the board edge.

This is an old discussion from the 40k rules forums, which is why you haven't found anything in the 30k forums.

Thanks Caillum, but this is what other people have also said, and it's dealing with a character who's joining a unit who already have special rules, not with a character who is part of a unit when special rules are granted. :)

Perhaps this section of the rules is a bit more relevant, just a few paragraphs down from the section you quoted.

Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects

Sometimes, a unit that an Independent Character has joined will be the target of a

beneficial or harmful effect, such as those bestowed by the Blind special rule, for

example. If the character leaves the unit, both he and the unit continue to be affected by

the effect, so you’ll need to mark the character accordingly.

So in the example given the unit suddenly gains a rule and the character gets it too...

The transfer to IC is irrelevant in the question. In the same way the unit and IC would be effected by a psykic blessing, this would apply to the entire unit, including the character IF he had already joined them. However, as I doesn't say "during deployment" I would say it's pre game.

Yes, that's a fair point Adra'Melek, maybe he does have to grant the rule before he gets a chance to join the unit! Although, as ever, the timing isn't explicitly stated. Still the best counter argument so far.

Ok, well I'm not 100% convinced that it's not allowed, but I'll err on the side of caution and go with the general consensus that Polux can't join in with the Deep Strike. :) To be honest I was just looking to solve a transport capacity problem in one upcoming game and after that it'll probably be irrelevant anyway. :) Thanks for all the input!

[Terminus]

The closest thing to compare is Dynat, who grants a unit deep strike. No one lets him join either, but the timing is super clear with it being a warlord trait.

 

Regarding Pollux, the timing is a little more vague, but still happens before the game. You must declare a unit will be deep striking when you put them in reserve. This happens at deployment, which is before the game starts.  If Pollux granted the deep strike rule to a unit after the game has already started, they can't actually deep strike even if they are in reserves, because they must have declared the intention to deep strike upon being placed in reserves.

 

So now the question is if Alexis can include himself in the nomination by joining said unit during deployment. Since a character can only join a unit by deploying in coherence with them or being declared to join them in reserves (so effectively must be deployed after the unit he is joining), this doesn't really work. There are two options:

 

Alexis grants the rule before he is deployed, therefore he is not part of the unit at the time that they gain Deep Strike. He can't join the unit in Reserve since they have already declared that they are Deep Striking and he doesn't have this ability.

Alexis grants the rule after he is deployed, at which point it is too late to join the unit as they must deploy after him and declare that they are going into Deep Strike Reserves.

 

You could always use it to grant himself teleporation and accompany a terminator squad.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think a lot of people are missing the main gist of the question, which is really order of operations. The questions is this: can you attach Polux to a squad during deployment and then give it Deepstrike, or do you have to give a unit deepstrike first?

The rule doesn't set out specific criteria for giving Deepstrike, so yes, he can

Not really. One, there is nothing like an order of operations in the rules anymore. Forget about that term, please.

Two, the rule speaks about the army - I would read this as "at list creation". Not deployment. You pay for Polux, this gives one unit of your choice Deep Strike.

Then, at the table, you deploy Polux wherever, but DS is not conferred. The only way for him to have it, is in previous step to pick him as "the unit".

There is certainly orders of operations in the game. When you read a rule that specifies a certain point in a turn/game, that creates an order of operation that prevents some results from occurring, like attaching ICs to infiltrating units. Claiming they don't exist and to forget about the term is embarrassing when your example uses them.

In fact, Terminus does a great job going through the mechanics of joining and reserves, using order of operations to come the end results. But maybe he should just forget all about that right?

The closest thing to compare is Dynat, who grants a unit deep strike. No one lets him join either, but the timing is super clear with it being a warlord trait.

Regarding Pollux, the timing is a little more vague, but still happens before the game. You must declare a unit will be deep striking when you put them in reserve. This happens at deployment, which is before the game starts. If Pollux granted the deep strike rule to a unit after the game has already started, they can't actually deep strike even if they are in reserves, because they must have declared the intention to deep strike upon being placed in reserves.

So now the question is if Alexis can include himself in the nomination by joining said unit during deployment. Since a character can only join a unit by deploying in coherence with them or being declared to join them in reserves (so effectively must be deployed after the unit he is joining), this doesn't really work. There are two options:

Alexis grants the rule before he is deployed, therefore he is not part of the unit at the time that they gain Deep Strike. He can't join the unit in Reserve since they have already declared that they are Deep Striking and he doesn't have this ability.

Alexis grants the rule after he is deployed, at which point it is too late to join the unit as they must deploy after him and declare that they are going into Deep Strike Reserves.

You could always use it to grant himself teleporation and accompany a terminator squad.

[Kastor Krieg]

 

There is certainly orders of operations in the game. When you read a rule that specifies a certain point in a turn/game, that creates an order of operation that prevents some results from occurring, like attaching ICs to infiltrating units. Claiming they don't exist and to forget about the term is embarrassing when your example uses them.

 

 

Page and paragraph please.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's not a rule....its how to determine which rules are resolved first using the timing specified in the rules, or sometimes sentence structure. It's a concept that you yourself used in that quote.

[Kastor Krieg]

There's no sequence in army list creation. You can't possibly argue that I said there is one because I said that first you create a list and then there's Deployment.
 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, there is; you have to take certain rites of war or characters before certain configurations are allowed. This necessitates some kind of order in list creation.

 

However, you literally said there was no such thing as order of operations in how the 40k rules work, period. That's what I was arguing against.