Since the new Red Book, what new Legion ratings ?

[GreyCrow]

One thing I want to add again, I don't want to pick the Legion that is considered the most powerful, I'm just curious as to which are considered above or below average.

 

I'm a bit surprised by some of the aggressive reactions, a few months ago people were happily saying that Emperors Children and Sons of Horus were subpar.

 

I have a few Legions I'm interested in, but I like I said I want to pick one that is among the below average crew or the one that has the least "wow" factor.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

The only legions that are below average are the new legions, because they are new and haven't been fully fleshed out. 

 

The Horus & Justaerin combo is glorious indeed, but an interceptor heavy or tactical support rocking plasma or melta will vaporise it for a fraction of the cost. There's a counter, non-Legion specific, to nearly everything. 

 

You're getting aggressive responses because it's just a poor question for a topic. There are tactica threads for every Legion, all rammed with info that allows you to make a decision. Asking which Legion's are good and bad is just making you out to be "That Guy". 

[Charlo]

I'm a bit surprised by some of the aggressive reactions, a few months ago people were happily saying that Emperors Children and Sons of Horus were subpar.

That's because by all accounts they were. The EC especially were so reliant some utilising sub par buffs just to compete that it put a lot off when they could just do something simple like massed IW guns or have an army in your opponents face with RG.

 

Book 6 bought much needed changes to the older legions that are both fluffy and poweful. Hence us all saying they're basically even now, with thier own strengths and weaknesses.

[GreyCrow]

Oh yeah, definitely ! What I meant was : why were some people being aggressive why they had no trouble ranking the Legions a few months back :p From what I got from the new book, the Legions are more on par with one another for sure.

[Robzilla]

Ultimately I do understand the agonising indecision when it comes to picking a legion.  I ended up committing to Alpha legion.  80% due to fluff, and my own personal idea for a background, 10% because im a sucker for generalist tactics, and 10% because they will be faily easy to be made backwards compatable to 40k.  As everyone has said, whilst there were gaps plain to see before, everything has been tightened up a lot between the legions (if not the core units) and as such the only real decisions should be based on either fluff/scheme preference, or play style.

 

If you cant decide, you should make a list of your top contenders, and promise yourself you will get around to doing all of them.  Just put them in priority.  If the list makes you disapointed, you will know you've got tthe order wrong, so juggle it around a bit.  If you are happy with it?  Win win!

 

That's what I'm doing, and why Alpha legion are my first (painfully slow) project.

Then Blood Angels...

Then night Lords...

Then Vlka Fenryka...

Then World Eaters...

Then a Divorce when my wife sees the bank balance...

Then Solar Auxillia and Mechanicum.

 

I think I have a problem.

[depthcharge12]

I kind of want to make a compendium of people's gaming experience on a legion by legion basis. Just their thoughts about the strengths and weaknesses they saw during a game.

[Robzilla]

That's a pretty good idea, however surely the rite of war options would hugely sway the way each legion plays.

 

Perhaps a chart to cross reference that? Legions going down and row going across?

[ElectricPaladin]

I think it's also important to remember that not every legion's playstyle matters as much. For example, Salamanders are very close to the basic legionaires. Their options make them better at close-range firefights with flamers and meltaguns, and they're a bit more stalwart, and there are a few things they can't do... but that's it. Contrast this with Alpha Legion, whose Mutable Tactics rule means that they can play radically different from the basic legions. This could complicate your results.

[Amon777]

How are people ranking my venerable Iron Hands these days? I remember when they were top dog due to the rules but that had been quite a while.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah, my Templar future has set me firmly in the IF camp, but that could've been a lot different (though still loyalist, unless pre-Heresy Emperor's Children).

[Terminus]

The only legions that are below average are the new legions, because they are new and haven't been fully fleshed out.

 

The Horus & Justaerin combo is glorious indeed, but an interceptor heavy or tactical support rocking plasma or melta will vaporise it for a fraction of the cost. There's a counter, non-Legion specific, to nearly everything.

 

You're getting aggressive responses because it's just a poor question for a topic. There are tactica threads for every Legion, all rammed with info that allows you to make a decision. Asking which Legion's are good and bad is just making you out to be "That Guy".

 

Justaerin have 2 wounds, 4++ and with FNP even a full seeker squad using marked for death on them will only kill 3. A full squad of plasma support marines intercepting kills 1 and wounds a second. And that's not counting any wounds Horus decides to tank. It's an awesome combo. And I think 1000 points of Primarch and Terminators should be awesome, especially given the Legion in question.

[Brofist]

Who cares about the power ratings? If that's your basis for choosing which Legion to play, you're choosing it for the wrong reasons. I'm also getting really tired of seeing these kinds of threads pop up because it's mostly opinions and no facts, and quickly turns into a downward spiral that gets locked.

I feel the question GreyCrow was fishing for isn't 'power ratings' as you say, but how the meta has changed up since the latest books have dropped. That's a good topic and I'm surprised we haven't had one sooner.

 

In my group things are still shaking out, but there are some clear winners. SoH, as everyone mentioned, finally got the love they deserved. EC are even more formidable than before and I think people overlook their strengths. Word Bearers continue to get love and have enjoyed being a top legion for some while. White Scars are also really looking strong and I expect to see more of them as players paint up armies. WE and DG got some perks, but they are situational and I'm not really sure they did enough for them. Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and Night Lords are all doing well (especially with the tweaks to NL). Fists got a bit of a nerf, but their primarch got a buff to make up for so they're basically the same as before- a strong legion. Iron Hands haven't changed at all, but they've been solid since book 2 so that's hardly a surprise. We have a dedicated BA player and I think they are a pretty good legion, provided the costs on assault squads come down drastically. Our league prices them much lower and this, combined with the BA assault ROW makes them fun, fluffy, and pretty good on the tabletop. In terms of non marine armies ordo reductor are the new kings of admech mountain thanks to solid rules and a great new FOC. SA and Militia remain very good allied choices with lots and lots of cool options.

 

When it comes to the losers, cybernetica was hit the hardest by the latest red book. Many of their units got points increases, all robots lost scoring, and there just aren't many reasons to take them in anything except an allied detachment. That's a shame, and a fall from being one of the best allied armies a few years ago. They have scoria though- and he's going to upset a lot of people when he gets time on the tabletop- but I don't think one model represents an entire army. Dark Angels, I feel your pain. Lots of head scratchers and disappointment there. Iron Warriors also got a nerf and nothing to really make up for it when everyone was hoping they'd streamline some of the rules. 

 

Despite that it's still a pretty close ballgame. 30k isn't a competitive game, yet we enjoy a tightness and attention to the rules not seen in the parent product. There are definitely some upsets and puzzling decisions, but overall things have trended to getting better. There are tons of fun fluffy viable lists which is just outstanding to see and speaks to the health of the game currently.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

The only legions that are below average are the new legions, because they are new and haven't been fully fleshed out.

 

The Horus & Justaerin combo is glorious indeed, but an interceptor heavy or tactical support rocking plasma or melta will vaporise it for a fraction of the cost. There's a counter, non-Legion specific, to nearly everything.

 

You're getting aggressive responses because it's just a poor question for a topic. There are tactica threads for every Legion, all rammed with info that allows you to make a decision. Asking which Legion's are good and bad is just making you out to be "That Guy".

Justaerin have 2 wounds, 4++ and with FNP even a full seeker squad using marked for death on them will only kill 3. A full squad of plasma support marines intercepting kills 1 and wounds a second. And that's not counting any wounds Horus decides to tank. It's an awesome combo. And I think 1000 points of Primarch and Terminators should be awesome, especially given the Legion in question.

 

 

Plasma cannons and lascannons then, or a few magna-meltas. 

But yeah in reality nothing is stopping the Horus deathblob. 

[PastelAvenger]

Justaerin don't have FnP if you're taking a Primus Medicare it just seems a bit of a points bloat.

[Charlo]

Justaerin don't have FnP if you're taking a Primus Medicare it just seems a bit of a points bloat.

 

I disagree, when you can shrug off 1/3 more plasma wounds than you normally would it will really show. Especially when you only have to survive normally one round of shooting.

[Terminus]

The Matrix of Ruin gets too much hype. Yes it's powerful, but no one plays with the alternate FOC organization charts, so it's mostly a non-factor.

 

Primus is totally worth it for a Horus blob of doom. I rather have him than two more Justaerin.

[Caustic63]

I think that in any army that features specialized templates such as legions where you can only pick one, its reasonable to have a discussion of how they compare to one another in terms of the additional capabilities they bring (and capabilities they take away). It is a very broad question to ask how they rank up against each other because you'd need to take into account the preferred playstyle of the individual asking it. Assuming that preferred playstyle is "the one that achieves the best results competitively in the hands of a highly skilled general" I would have to answer this by saying we don't know yet since there haven't been enough Horus Heresy tournaments using the current updated rules to effectively test them.

 

I can say the recent updates really pull up the pants of the weaker Book One legions that had been suffering from codex creep, and with the new legion specific Rites of War from Book 6 there are some really deadly builds that haven't been realized to their full potential yet. Sons of Horus are a current favourite because of their new Death Dealers rule and upgraded Justaerin, and combined with the Long March RoW Dreadclaw Plasmas/Meltas are simply devestating. Likewise, Emperor's Children (whom I play extensively) have completely changed. The 3rd Company Elite RoW with its Relentless, Troops Kakophoni that fire an additional shot offer devastating firepower in a slot normally thought of as a tax. 

[Jimm]

Surprised no mention of word bearers. Psykic shenanigans, daemons and now pods gallor make for a reasonably strong force.

[Theredknight]

As an EC player, I can tell you that's the list I took before the books was pretty much a legion list with eidolon in.

With their amendments I hardly use my tactical squads now in favour of at least 2 kakophoni units.

Sure they die sometimes to gets hot, but they have a lot more damage output than a unit of 15 tacticals.

In fact playing them more I can see why they left it in there as it can devastate a squad with the additional wounds.

 

They were bumping along the bottom along with SOH now both are elevated to about the same level as the others.

So really id say it has become more even. No one legion stands miles apart anymore, it depends how your generalship is, and how the dice rolls. Which is how 30k should be IMO, not about 'power levels' as such

[Charlo]

Every play style has strengths and weaknesses that mesh well with all the legions.

 

Yeah you could play an all infiltrate and deep strike RG army, but if your battle plan is built around that and my army is DG with augary scanner heavy support squads and Thrallax preventing infiltration within 24" then you're gunna have a bad time.

 

Similarly if you play an infiltrate list but I'm playing a heavy AV list with not many models I could be swamped quickly and have my tanks blown up with podded melta.

 

It's all swings and roundabouts. 

[Flint13]

 

 

The only legions that are below average are the new legions, because they are new and haven't been fully fleshed out.

The Horus & Justaerin combo is glorious indeed, but an interceptor heavy or tactical support rocking plasma or melta will vaporise it for a fraction of the cost. There's a counter, non-Legion specific, to nearly everything.

You're getting aggressive responses because it's just a poor question for a topic. There are tactica threads for every Legion, all rammed with info that allows you to make a decision. Asking which Legion's are good and bad is just making you out to be "That Guy".

 

Justaerin have 2 wounds, 4++ and with FNP even a full seeker squad using marked for death on them will only kill 3. A full squad of plasma support marines intercepting kills 1 and wounds a second. And that's not counting any wounds Horus decides to tank. It's an awesome combo. And I think 1000 points of Primarch and Terminators should be awesome, especially given the Legion in question.

 

Plasma cannons and lascannons then, or a few magna-meltas. 

 

But yeah in reality nothing is stopping the Horus deathblob.

Can't agree there.

 

The one time I played against it with my Solar Aux, Horus and Co. deep struck down, blew a Malcador up and then caught every single Str10AP2 template I had after every vehicle reversed out of their charge range. Which was about 8 templates, which worked decently to take the squad apart and knock a few wounds off the Warmaster. If I was going to do it again, I would shoot less at them and swamp them with the allied Warp Cult I use with pretty much every army now. Removing the Warmaster and his Justaerin from the game (and maybe even killing a few with lucky rends) is pretty much as good as killing them, short of the Kingslayer victory points.

 

The practical problem that pops up is that they're a bit unwieldy. Once they come down and kill something expensive, they don't have a lot of punch outside of combat and not a whole lot of mobility to get into combat. That issue is compounded when you spend a huge chunk of your army on the "death blob" and don't have enough left to force you opponent into choosing between two or more bad options.

 

TL:DR - Horus and Justaerin posse is super fun and fluffy, but far from unkilliable and even farther from undefeatable.

[Terminus]

That sounds like a combination of optimal match-up and poor play. No army can produce the same volume of demolisher cannons that Solar Auxilia. Reductor Mechanicum can come close. The Legions are pretty much SOL, since they can only take one artillery battery and these are usually taken with phosphex. Otherwise, I find Legion lists lean on mass plasma to deal with elite targets, which does nothing against Horus's crew.

 

Likewise, Horus can precision deep strike where driving out of his charge range and still being able to fire ordnance is not really an option. I'd also give this unit quite a few lightning claws for 4 attacks per guy, but a 50-strong fearless cult horde would indeed cramp this unit's style for way too long for Horus' liking.

[GreyCrow]

Interesting point Flint ! If anything it highlights the idea that even Legiones should invest heavily in big guns to counter the expensive melee units used as a main damage carry. Makes sense in a futuristic setting :p

[Flint13]

That sounds like a combination of optimal match-up and poor play. No army can produce the same volume of demolisher cannons that Solar Auxilia.

Can't argue that. It doesn't help that even without scatter, deep strike forces you to arrange your unit in a handy little concentric formation that fits very neatly under a 5" template.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a lot to be done there. Unless I'm asleep at the wheel, I'm not going to give my opponent a ton of juicy rear armor shots when I know he's got Horus and co. in reserve. If he deep strikes in close enough to unload all the combi-weapons, it's close enough for me to hose the unit with templates. If he deep strikes into a less forward position so as to be out of range of a lot of my shooting, he's going to have a long, slow trek across the board, which kinda defeats the purpose.

 

I think it's just a bit of an inherent drawback with terminator posses. Unless you're firing them out the front of a Spartan (which comes with its own series of downsides) they're not very mobile, which is a huge problem since they don't do a ton of damage outside of combat once they unload their combi-weapons.

 

Interesting point Flint ! If anything it highlights the idea that even Legiones should invest heavily in big guns to counter the expensive melee units used as a main damage carry. Makes sense in a futuristic setting :p

Demo cannons are a great leveler in more ways than one.

[Terminus]

It's just that you were able to drive out of melee range (which is 6"+2d6"), which tells me that he literally just landed in the middle of the table mostly out of range of stuff, and then just got blasted to pieces.  This seems silly to me, considering Horus can choose which turn he comes in from reserves, and can choose to Outflank or Deep Strike without scatter.  He has much better options than landing in front of half a dozen demolisher cannons in a nice demolisher-cannon-sized clump.

 

And just as a fun math exercise, Horus suffers one wound on average from 10 demolisher cannon hits. :D