Since the new Red Book, what new Legion ratings ?

[SkimaskMohawk]

If its just horus with no one to generate/soak up additional wounds, I think you mean he suffers 2-3 wounds

[Ishagu]

Top Tier:

 

-Sons of Horus

-Ultramarines

-Iron Hands

-Alpha Legion

-Imperial Fists

 

Upper Mid Tier:

 

-Salamanders

-Iron Warriors

-Emperor's Children

-Word Bearers (could be top with Deamon allies)

-Raven Guard

 

Mid Tier:

 

-World Eaters

-Death Guard

-Night Lords

 

Low Tier:

 

-Blood Angels

-Dark Angels (both will improve with unit and rules additions)

[Terminus]

I don't know about Night Lords being mid-tier, I would swap them and Iron Hands. Their 5+ cover in the open, bonuses to wounding and hitting, bonus to initiative in the dark that they can now guarantee, teleporting terminators like Fists, and a great rite in Terror Assault makes them quite vicious. Conversely, Iron Hands basically just have an advantage in small arms exchanges due to the -1S to enemy fire. Their Rites, Primarch, characters, and special units are unremarkable.

 

The Angels I hope will get a different set of special legion rules. The Dark Angels in particular have some atrocious Legion abilities. A brutal penalty and a minor combat benefit. They do have better equipment than Blood Angels, but the swords and repeaters you can't take on the models that would use them best (non-characters and terminators, respectively). I'm guessing their specialist terminator unit will lug the plasma repeaters, and they will also get some kind of Templar Brethren-esque knightly swordsmen unit with the calabanite blades. The bolter rounds and stasis shells are incredibly obnoxious, and combined with their two very potent rites, I may be already tempted to put them a hair away from mid-tier.  With some specialist units, characters, and maybe even an extra Legion rule or two, and they will easily be in the top tier.

 

World Eaters and Death Guard aren't really weak, they are just a tad one-dimensional as they play to their strengths as the fluff dictates: rampaging hordes of berserkers, or chem warfare.

 

So really, no bad choices. Except Space Wolves. Always a bad decision. :P

[Ishagu]

I based the tiers on the Legion rules, their Rites and their unique units.

 

Perhaps you're right about the Iron Hands, but having Squads that still get FNP from Str8 shooting is very good.

 

Overall the gap between the Legions isn't big. Any Legion can beat any other. I put Death Guard and World Eaters at the bottom because they aren't as flexible as the other forces, but as we know they can still be built up for any playstyle.

[GreyCrow]

@Ishagu : Out of curiosity, what made you put the UM on the top tier ?

[Ishagu]

Powerful Legion rules and extremely competitive unique units.

[Terminus]

Yeah, Fulmentarus are questionable due to cost (105 more than equally-geared Siege Tyrants), but both Suzerain and Invictarii are very excellent, and they get combat breachers too (although why not take more Suzerain? ). The Primarch is an absolute boss. Telemechrus is neat as a cheaper and better contemptor, but can't take a pod.

Their only "weaknesses" are neither Rite is particularly enticing, and their only non-Primarch HQ is kind of lame.

I would honestly swap them with Word Bearers (appropriately enough) and put them in upper mid-tier. You can cheese them out if you spam Suzerain with Big Papa, but it still compares nothing to the mountains of gouda Word Bearers can dish out with their Orbital Assault on Crack rite, or daemon allies.

So that's two loyalists I've replaced with traitors, haha.

My own ranks:

Upper Tier:

-Sons of Horus

-Word Bearers
-Alpha Legion

-Raven Guard (very generous legion rules, two excellent units, good rites, great force multiplier characters)

Upper Mid Tier:

-Imperial Fists (not sure if they deserve top billing)
-Night Lords (lots of bonuses, but many situational)
-Emperor's Children

-Ultramarines

Mid Tier:

-Salamanders (they ain't that hot... no pun intended )

-Iron Warriors (took a big hit losing Elite Tyrants)
-Iron Hands
-World Eaters
-Death Guard
-White Scars (we forgot about these blokes!)

Lower Mid Tier:

Stasis grenade and poison heavy bolter Angels (will likely be at least upper mid-tier if not upper tier when complete)

Lower Tier:

Assault Cannon Angels (will get most ridiculous Primarch model ever, so win on moral grounds)

Of course, all the loyalists will get an enormous boost from Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Finally, I would like to stress that while we are ranking them, these tiers are baby steps at most. The line separating the top and upper middle is a hair's breadth, and the rest are a half-step behind that. Only when facing something like optimized Sons of Horus or Word Bearers with a default Legion List (which is basically what Blood Angels are at this point) would you really feel the sting of inequality, and even then things like scenario, terrain, general experience and skill, and of course the all important dice will play a far bigger role in the final outcome than Legion selection.

I do like how the three arch-traitors (Horus the Warmaster, Lorgar the Vizier, Alpharius the Master of Whispers) are sitting squarely at the top, along with the sneakiest Loyalist Primarch. Deception is truly the most crucial element in war!

[Brofist]

White scars have some nice rules, but I've never really looked into them to say how they stack up against everyone else. They seem at least as good as EC.

 

As for the hands, they're not the top of the pile, but still up there somewhere. -1S to shooting isn't super hot, but HotG is really good, as is Orth, battle bros with admech, Ciber Familiars (4++ breachers sergents? 3++ consuls?), T6 bikes, and not loosing FNP makes them steadfast and reliable. A good legion for sure.

[Terminus]

The cyber familiar is nice, but you sure do pay for it.  Battle brothers with Ad Mech isn't a huge deal I feel, as you'll either be bringing automata with a Pravian or if you're investing more heavily, it will be Cybernetica (so not a lot of cross-faction joining of characters).  But sure, they could be upper-middle if you know your way around them, although then Salamanders would have to tag along.  Like I said, half step at most.  Iron Warriors won't feel particularly "mid"-tier when they are rolling your front line with a wall of phosphex.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Why are Salamanders considered so good? I would honestly put them near the bottom.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Firedrakes are pretty much the toughest terminators around with a +3 invul and 2w, plus with ws5 and thunder hammers they hit back very hard. Add onto that their preators can have eternal warrior, and you've got a very solid deathstar unit. That alone keeps them mid tier I'd say, plus their legion rules are not bad at all, more essentially get a weak version of a legion vexilia on all legion units. 

[Jimm]

Firedrakes are pretty much the toughest terminators around with a +3 invul and 2w, plus with ws5 and thunder hammers they hit back very hard. Add onto that their preators can have eternal warrior, and you've got a very solid deathstar unit. That alone keeps them mid tier I'd say, plus their legion rules are not bad at all, more essentially get a weak version of a legion vexilia on all legion units.

And vulkan, that man just wont die!

[God-Potato of Mankind]

@ Ishagu World Eaters low tier?

 

Their basic tacticals are the most effective CC unit in the game currently, when you consider points to effect ratio. 

 

Throw in the sexcellent Red Butchers and you have can have a hugely efficient army, releasing much greater flexibility to bring more expensive, scary units. 

Most Legion lists need at least 300 points in troops, minimum. They won't be contributing much, so they're mostly a tax. If you take World Eaters, you suddenly don't need to bring much anti-infantry capability as your basic troops fill it. You can fill your remaining points with high strength, high AP weapons. 

[Gorgoff]

@ Ishagu World Eaters low tier?

 

Their basic tacticals are the most effective CC unit in the game currently, when you consider points to effect ratio. 

 

Throw in the sexcellent Red Butchers and you have can have a hugely efficient army, releasing much greater flexibility to bring more expensive, scary units. 

 

Most Legion lists need at least 300 points in troops, minimum. They won't be contributing much, so they're mostly a tax. If you take World Eaters, you suddenly don't need to bring much anti-infantry capability as your basic troops fill it. You can fill your remaining points with high strength, high AP weapons.

 

Or Land Raiders for your troops. ;)

[Lord Asvaldir]

Really I think the point is that tiers don't even really mean much in 30k. Sure I'd undoubtedly put Sons of Horus and Raven Guard near the top, but if you put World Eaters at mid tier that doesn't really mean they are that far at all from the top tier legions, unlike in 40k where a mid tier army is far behind the top. The best thing to new book did as far as legion tiers go is now they are far more equal, really every legion has good abilities, units and Rites to use, with maybe the exception of some of the newest book 6 legions. 

[Ishagu]

I will admit the rage fuelled Tactical blob in World Eater armies is pretty crazy.

 

But yeah, the Tier gaps are miniscule in the 30k environment.

 

I would put Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum above the Legions, however...

[Terminus]

Demolisher Cannon Auxilia absolutely stomp the crap out of stuff, but the fleshy bits succumb to the Legionnaires despite their fancy toys. Mechanicum I feel is fairly balanced due to the high cost of their units despite their potency, but they are definitely a heavy hitter in all their three faces (I don't know if I'm more excited about Book VII or the IA Skitarii).

 

@ Ishagu World Eaters low tier?

 

Their basic tacticals are the most effective CC unit in the game currently, when you consider points to effect ratio. 

 

Throw in the sexcellent Red Butchers and you have can have a hugely efficient army, releasing much greater flexibility to bring more expensive, scary units. 

Most Legion lists need at least 300 points in troops, minimum. They won't be contributing much, so they're mostly a tax. If you take World Eaters, you suddenly don't need to bring much anti-infantry capability as your basic troops fill it. You can fill your remaining points with high strength, high AP weapons. 

Hmm, I don't know. Re-roll 1s to wound and Rage for strong charge, free chainaxes, and depending on Rite either get hatred outside their deployment or 6+ FNP while in yours. Pretty comparable to Sons of Horus who get BS5 bolt pistols, 3 attacks per guy when outnumbering, and Fleet/Crusader in Long March (or Rage in the other one). Or Emperor's Children who will attack before you when charging, including the AP2 sgt, and in the new default 3rd company list hit on 3+. Night Lords hit on 3+ and wound on 3+, plus have a cover save first turn.

 

If you add Fabius's boy for Inductii S5 and 6+++, they are definitely the scariest dudes around, but lose scoring.

[Ishagu]

Who's that World Eaters Primus Medicae who gives a squad 4+ FNP? He's pretty awesome...

[Slips]

Couple Corrections:

 

The Crimson Path is 6+ FNP or +1 to existing FNP and IWND or +1 to IWND for IC's.

 

Ghalan Surkal unlocks Inductii's but any WE Apothecary can trigger Exhortation of Butchery. He also has/gives a 4+ FNP thats boosted to a 3+ in a Crimson Path Army.

 

Its basically the defensive version of Berserker Assault.

[temneb]

Only in the opponants deployment zone though.

[Charlo]

Only in the opponants deployment zone though.

 

Where else would you be as a world eater? :P

[God-Potato of Mankind]

They were a dank Legion to start with, but book 6 pushed them through the stratosphere. 

 

Gahlan Surlak is probablty just OP, 110pts for a decent CC beatstick and ridiculous army buffs.

[Terminus]

It's not ridiculous. You lose SCORING.

[depthcharge12]

It's not ridiculous. You lose SCORING.

Everything is second to blood!

 

Kill! Maim! Burn!

[Terminus]

Khârn hasn't coined that yet, it's after a few more deaths. :P