Jump Pack Assault Marines

[SM1981]

Planning on building a squad of these, largely because I don't have one and want one.

 

My regular assault marines are fielded as "Meltacide" from a drop pod, and I want a group that is a little less kamikaze in my collection. With that in mind I was thinkimg about weapon load out and keep getting pulled back to classic death company build of 1 PS, and 1PF per five men. I just can't think of a better flexible combo to fight MEQ (your average) opponent. Anyone got an opinion on this?

 

And no 10 hand flames is not an option...

 

And yes I know DC do everything AM do better, but variety is a good thing too.

[Boudan]

Putting a power sword (or power fist depending on circumstance) and storm shield on assault Sargeants can been fun for challenging other MEQ squad leaders. For the special weapons I typically take flamers (or hand flamers) or just stock CC weapons if I'm trying to be cheap. Granted, my meta is very predictable and I'm a novice at this stuff.

[GreyCrow]

One thing you need to keep in mind is that Assault Marines aren't hunter killer soldiers, but line units. Points for points, they are closer to a Tactical Squad on wings than they are to a high damage unit.

 

Used this way, for board control and board presence, they are very efficient :)

[sebs_evo7]

I just built a 5 man squad with 2 hand flamers and a hand flamer and power mace on the sgt that's because we have two new ork players at my local. My other squad just has a melta gun and power fist on the sgt but i use them as bullet shields for my captain and priest. Actually when run like that they are a half decent unit

[Xenith]

With that in mind I was thinkimg about weapon load out and keep getting pulled back to classic death company build of 1 PS, and 1PF per five men. 

 

Bear in mind that assault marines cannot take special melee weapons, only the sergeant.

 

I have found melta works well, flamers are also good if you have sufficient anti tank elsewhere, but chainswords can deal with whatever the flamers would be killing, and melta helps with the things they cannot kill in combat.

 

I'm always tempted to make a 5 man 2plasma, combi plasma assault squad, for mobile death.

 

Sergeant loadout is personal preference. A powerfist adds a lot of cost to the squad, and after a couple of years running one, not sure it's worth it. An axe+melta bomb might be better.

[SM1981]

On a semi related note are the MKIV jump packs the same as the sang guard ones (they look to be). I figure if I'm going to do this I may as well add some flare to it. BaC marines to paint and all.

[Charlo]

They work well as a distraction and to buffer up an assault line or eat overwatch for the real combat units.

 

A block of ten with two flamers, hand flamer and power weapon on the sarge will give some good results and a lot of S4 and 5 hits from about turn 2 onwards.

 

Plus if they don't get shot up that's a fair chunk of damage. Don't be afraid to get them in buff city with a priest for FNP or dropping the Sanguinor and or a sang guard banner nearby for extra attacks.

 

People will shoot your black armoured mad men, but the red ones may be the sleeper attack ;)

 

That said a small unit of 5 with the above load out in an army with Dante cam bring some precision harassment via deep strike.

[Xenith]

As I'm building a company, I've found myself wondering whether 2x5 men are more efficient (better) than 1x10.

 

10 man, 2x melta 190pts

2x (5 man, 2 melta) 210pts.

 

a 10% increase in cost nets you 100% increased damage output vs tanks, 2+ saves etc, while maintaining the same attacks.

 

It uses up an additional FA slot, but with multiple CAD, this doesnt really seem an issue to me.

[RedemptionNL]

or a sang guard banner nearby for extra attacks.

Note that the extra attacks granted by the Chapter Banner the Sanguinary Guard can take is for their unit only. Only the re-rolling Morale and Pinning tests bonus is granted to nearby units.

[Jolemai]

 

or a sang guard banner nearby for extra attacks.

Note that the extra attacks granted by the Chapter Banner the Sanguinary Guard can take is for their unit only. Only the re-rolling Morale and Pinning tests bonus is granted to nearby units.

 

 

No offense to Charlo but this is one of those little things that's missed all the time.

[Charlo]

or a sang guard banner nearby for extra attacks.

Note that the extra attacks granted by the Chapter Banner the Sanguinary Guard can take is for their unit only. Only the re-rolling Morale and Pinning tests bonus is granted to nearby units.

No offense to Charlo but this is one of those little things that's missed all the time.

I'm SO offended right now

It's because the vanilla one does (I think....) and the 1D4chan article didn't actually have the banner under wargear. Just in the unit entry.

[RedemptionNL]

Nope, the Chapter Banner and Company Standard in Codex: Space Marines have exactly the same caveats. Well, technically theirs allow your units to re-roll failed Fear tests in addition to the Morale and Pinning tests we have. But seeing as we have ATSKNF or Fearless, we can't fail 'em anyway.

[Charlo]

Nope, the Chapter Banner and Company Standard in Codex: Space Marines have exactly the same caveats. Well, technically theirs allow your units to re-roll failed Fear tests in addition to the Morale and Pinning tests we have. But seeing as we have ATSKNF or Fearless, we can't fail 'em anyway.

 

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I won't lie, I've never used the banners so it was a semi-stab in the dark :P

[Boudan]

In support aof Xenith's point, I'm consistently finding that 2x5 vs 1x10 is just better. I don't do a lot of deep striking, and I suppose that *could* be an argument in favor of 1x10 squad(s) if you were confident of making your roll.

[Charlo]

I run meltacide 2x5 and they're very efficient. Especially with free pods and a deathwind launcher for maximum drop carnage.

[Quixus]

Putting a power sword (or power fist depending on circumstance) and storm shield on assault Sargeants can been fun for challenging other MEQ squad leaders. For the special weapons I typically take flamers (or hand flamers) or just stock CC weapons if I'm trying to be cheap. Granted, my meta is very predictable and I'm a novice at this stuff.

Storm Shields are gone since the last codex. Are hand flamers really worth it? At S3 they don't cause that many wounds.

[Charlo]

 

Putting a power sword (or power fist depending on circumstance) and storm shield on assault Sargeants can been fun for challenging other MEQ squad leaders. For the special weapons I typically take flamers (or hand flamers) or just stock CC weapons if I'm trying to be cheap. Granted, my meta is very predictable and I'm a novice at this stuff.

Storm Shields are gone since the last codex. Are hand flamers really worth it? At S3 they don't cause that many wounds.

 

 

100% Worth it.

 

They fit RULE OF COOL and are basically a volley of 100% accurate lasgun fire that also grants an additional attack in combat AND D3 hits on overwatch.

 

More dice, more wounds, more casualties. Plus against anything T3 it's just money.

 

Plus they're unique to us, so it's nice to use them :D

[Fahlnor]

 

Putting a power sword (or power fist depending on circumstance) and storm shield on assault Sargeants can been fun for challenging other MEQ squad leaders. For the special weapons I typically take flamers (or hand flamers) or just stock CC weapons if I'm trying to be cheap. Granted, my meta is very predictable and I'm a novice at this stuff.

Storm Shields are gone since the last codex. Are hand flamers really worth it? At S3 they don't cause that many wounds.

 

I'm thinking through what I'm going to say as I type, because this is something that has very recently started going through my head.

 

Hand flamers seem piddly at S3 and AP6, perhaps. But let's actually look at the numbers for them. The thing about flamers, for me, is that they never have to roll To Hit. So, sure, they're weaker, but they may make up for that in pure reliability. Let's find out:

 

 

Vs. Space Marines

 

Bolt pistol

 

One shot at BS4 = 2/3 of a hit = 2/3*1/2 = 2/6 = 1/3 wounds

 

Hand flamer

 

One model covered = 1 hit = 1*1/3 = 1/3 wounds

Two models covered = 2 hits = 2*1/3 = 2/3 wounds

Three models covered = 3 hits = 3*1/3 = 1 wounds

 

 

Well, that was unexpected. I anticipated that there would be a point - probably around two hits - where the hand flamer would catch up to the bolt pistol. But actually, even if you only hit one single model (MEQ, at any rate), we're seeing the hand flamer doing exactly as well as the bolt pistol.

 

Now consider that when we're firing Overwatch a hand flamer will average two hits (which equates to 2/3 wounds), while a bolt pistol will average 1/6 of a hit (which equates to 1/12 of a wound) and our humble hand flamer is beginning to look actually rather impressive.

 

There are a couple of issues here, of course. The first is that the hand flamer costs more points. The second is enemy models with 5+ armour saves. But writing out some extremely quick mathhammer has suggested to me at least that maybe I ought to reconsider my opinion on hand flamers....

 

Edit: formatting

[Charlo]

The reality is that you're going to hit a lot more than 3 models too. In terms of MEQ you technically need 9 hits to cause a wound, sure. But in practice it's always fluctuated between awesome and okay.

[Quixus]

Comparing it to bolt pistols is hardly fair, comparing it to the proper flamer would make more sense:

 

One model covered => 1 hit => 1*1/2 => 1/2 wounds => 1/6 MEQ dead

Two models covered => 2 hits => 2*1/2 => 1 wound => 1/3 MEQ dead

Three models covered => 3 hits => 3*1/2 => 3/2 wounds => 1/2 MEQ dead

 

The hand flamer dudes do get 1* 2/3 hits => 1/3 wounds => 1/9 MEQ dead more than the flamer dudes in CC.

 

Combining the gunslinger Sgt with two hand flamers has the problem of having two different template weapons. The one used fist will reduce the number of hits for the second if it removes models.

[Charlo]

Nope, you actually place both templates one after each other adding up hits as they are the same type of weapons.

 

And I'd argue comparing to a normal flamer isn't right, as that is not a Pistol or a straight up swap of weapon.

[Fahlnor]

Nope, you actually place both templates one after each other adding up hits as they are the same type of weapons.

 

And I'd argue comparing to a normal flamer isn't right, as that is not a Pistol or a straight up swap of weapon.

I can see arguments for both. So far as I'm aware, anyone with access to one has access to the other, apart from Death Company?

 

And yes, from what I understand, you total hits for all templates before you start rolling to wound.

[Quixus]

Nope, you actually place both templates one after each other adding up hits as they are the same type of weapons.

 

And I'd argue comparing to a normal flamer isn't right, as that is not a Pistol or a straight up swap of weapon.

You add up all flamer templates and all hand flamer templates separately. Any models that are removed by the flamers cannot be covered by the hand flamer templates.

[Fahlnor]

 

Nope, you actually place both templates one after each other adding up hits as they are the same type of weapons.

 

And I'd argue comparing to a normal flamer isn't right, as that is not a Pistol or a straight up swap of weapon.

You add up all flamer templates and all hand flamer templates separately. Any models that are removed by the flamers cannot be covered by the hand flamer templates.

 

BRB p.52 MULTIPLE TEMPLATES:

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Resolve these, and the rest of the unit's shots, as normal."

 

So if you're firing multiple templates, you work out how many each template hits before you roll wounds.

 

Edit: correction

[Xenith]

 

You add up all flamer templates and all hand flamer templates separately. Any models that are removed by the flamers cannot be covered by the hand flamer templates.

 

 

The 'multiple templates' part at the back of the rulebook states that a squad with multiple template weapons places all templates first, determines hits from all templates, then works out wounds. This is an exception to the normal procedure for order of firing weapons.

 

The hand flamer might be 3x better than the bolt pistol, but factor in the cost - 50 % cost increase for 200% damage increase. Oh wait. That sentence started out being against the hand flamer. Hmm.

 

EDIT:

 

Severely ninja'd