Jump Pack Assault Marines

[Charlo]

HAND FLAMERS BABY YEAHHHHH

 

I really don't know why they get a bad rep. They're S3 to balance them IMO.

[Tenma13]

Think it's a tough question as I think to think about the army as a whole and the role you want them to play in it. I play Flesh tearers so I get 6 FA slots. I like bikes and assault marines as my army is generally very fast and my meta is always maelstrom with eldar, Tau and necron. I usually run 2x melta guns and PF on srgt. I think 2x flamers and a hand flamer could be nice too. Or just stock and grab out of the way objectives. 

[Quixus]

 

 

Nope, you actually place both templates one after each other adding up hits as they are the same type of weapons.

 

And I'd argue comparing to a normal flamer isn't right, as that is not a Pistol or a straight up swap of weapon.

You add up all flamer templates and all hand flamer templates separately. Any models that are removed by the flamers cannot be covered by the hand flamer templates.

 

BRB p.52 MULTIPLE TEMPLATES:

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Resolve these, and the rest of the unit's shots, as normal."

 

So if you're firing multiple templates, you work out how many each template hits before you roll wounds.

 

Edit: correction

 

This does not override the procedure of first choosing one weapon. Once you have chosen a weapon you are only firing this type of weapon, you are not firing any other type. So the rule only tells us to add up the models under multiple templates from this weapon type before rolling to wound.

 

HAND FLAMERS BABY YEAHHHHH

 

I really don't know why they get a bad rep. They're S3 to balance them IMO.

Three times the cost for lower strength is hardly balanced.

[Fahlnor]

 

 

 

Nope, you actually place both templates one after each other adding up hits as they are the same type of weapons.

 

And I'd argue comparing to a normal flamer isn't right, as that is not a Pistol or a straight up swap of weapon.

You add up all flamer templates and all hand flamer templates separately. Any models that are removed by the flamers cannot be covered by the hand flamer templates.

 

BRB p.52 MULTIPLE TEMPLATES:

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Resolve these, and the rest of the unit's shots, as normal."

 

So if you're firing multiple templates, you work out how many each template hits before you roll wounds.

 

Edit: correction

 

This does not override the procedure of first choosing one weapon. Once you have chosen a weapon you are only firing this type of weapon, you are not firing any other type. So the rule only tells us to add up the models under multiple templates from this weapon type before rolling to wound. 

I completely disagree with you, but I understand that it can be read in different ways. I'm sure someone somewhere provided more clear-cut support for using all templates together, but at the moment I forget who it was and where they found the information.

 

*Shrugs*

 

One of those to dice-off for, I guess.

 

:)

[Boudan]

 

 

Putting a power sword (or power fist depending on circumstance) and storm shield on assault Sargeants can been fun for challenging other MEQ squad leaders. For the special weapons I typically take flamers (or hand flamers) or just stock CC weapons if I'm trying to be cheap. Granted, my meta is very predictable and I'm a novice at this stuff.

Storm Shields are gone since the last codex. Are hand flamers really worth it? At S3 they don't cause that many wounds.

I meant combat shield, sorry for any confusion that actually caused.

 

Hand flamers seem okay to me!

[Fahlnor]

Found the thread here.

 

Also realised I was quoting the rule from 6th ed., which I agree was somewhat more open to interpretation. The rule in 7th ed. is somewhat more clear:

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal."

 

So, yeah. The new-look rule specifically states that you record the number of hits "from all templates" before you roll To Wound.

 

Flamers and hand flamers and heavy flamers abound!

[SM1981]

So I'm now leaning towards the idea of 2 flamers, 2 chainsword and bolt pistol, and a sarg with powersword, hand flamer, and melta bomb.

 

The thinking being it lays out a decent number of templates, still feels quite close combat focused / choppy, and the sarg gets to keep multiple attacks by not having anything "unwieldy", but still has decent AP via the melta bomb (although only one per turn).

 

Thoughts?

[SM1981]

And yes this means the melta bomb / high AP / high strength can't be used in chalenges / regular hand to hand, but it still kills tanks etc.

[Quixus]

Found the thread here.

 

Also realised I was quoting the rule from 6th ed., which I agree was somewhat more open to interpretation. The rule in 7th ed. is somewhat more clear:

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal."

 

So, yeah. The new-look rule specifically states that you record the number of hits "from all templates" before you roll To Wound.

In 7th edition you always select a weapon before firing it, so you never ever different weapons at the same time. The template rule just means that you sum up the hits from multiple hand flamer or flamer templates before rolling to wound.

 

3. Select a Weapon.

Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

 

and

 

When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named weapons (see Select Another Weapon, below).

Emphasis mine

 

The template rule does not contradict those rules and thus does not override them. If the unit has two or more template weapons with the same name or one template weapon that fires more than one shot (frag cannon) it is already "firing more than one shot with the Template type" so the rule triggers. The rule does not in any form override the weapon selection process.

[Helias_Tancred]

I run two assault squads of 5 men each.

 

Squad 1 has 2 meltaguns, and the sergeant is an inferno pistol gunslinger.

Squad 2 has 2 meltaguns, and the sergeant is a veteran and carries an inferno pistol and a power sword.

 

So far, nice. But to repeat what a previous post stated, they are still best used for board presence and board control.

And they are jump pack equipped.

[Jønke]

Same as helias nearly. 

 

Run 1 or 2 5 man squads just with 2 meltaguns. Use them to pop tanks and steal objectives. If i've got points for it i bling out the sergent.

[Tyriks]

 

HAND FLAMERS BABY YEAHHHHH

 

I really don't know why they get a bad rep. They're S3 to balance them IMO.

Three times the cost for lower strength is hardly balanced.

Where are you getting three times the cost?  I'm not disagreeing, I just don't actually know what cost you are comparing the hand flamer to.

[Quixus]

To the regular flamer. Woops, my bad. The flamer costs one meltabomb, the hand flamer two. So it is in fact only twice the cost.

[Charlo]

Toooootally worth it :P

[Jønke]

Thoooooastally worth it

Fixed ;P

[Tyriks]

Ah, gotcha.  Thanks for clarifying.  As far as that goes, it is a pistol, so it is weaker on its own but stronger in CC.  It seems pretty even to me, in that regard.

[LutherMax]

As an aside I think Quixus is correct with the Multiple Templates rule interpretation. I thought it was the other way too at first but the key bit is:

 

"... firing more than one shot with the Template type..."

 

Not:

 

"... firing more than one weapon with the Template type..."

 

If you've got two hand flamers they both shoot together and the hits are added up. Then if you've got two flamers they shoot after (or before depending on your preference!), etc

[Tyriks]

It ultimately doesn't matter, though, does it?  Since the hand flamers both go off at the same time, which was the original point (for the gunslinger). 

 

EDIT: I get it.  If all templates happened at once (and you had both flamers and hand flamers) you would cause way more damage than the way it is now because the models which would be killed by my flamer would still take hits from my hand flamer which could potentially kill the models that survived the first flamer, instead of the hand flamer only killing models hit by the hand flamer.  

[LutherMax]

Exactly ;)

[Fahlnor]

 

Found the thread here.

 

Also realised I was quoting the rule from 6th ed., which I agree was somewhat more open to interpretation. The rule in 7th ed. is somewhat more clear:

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal."

 

So, yeah. The new-look rule specifically states that you record the number of hits "from all templates" before you roll To Wound.

In 7th edition you always select a weapon before firing it, so you never ever different weapons at the same time. The template rule just means that you sum up the hits from multiple hand flamer or flamer templates before rolling to wound.

 

3. Select a Weapon.

Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

 

and

 

When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named weapons (see Select Another Weapon, below).

Emphasis mine

 

The template rule does not contradict those rules and thus does not override them. If the unit has two or more template weapons with the same name or one template weapon that fires more than one shot (frag cannon) it is already "firing more than one shot with the Template type" so the rule triggers. The rule does not in any form override the weapon selection process.

 

Well, again, I beg to differ, but that's less a reflection on either of us and more a reflection on GW's inability to write a tight set of rules for people to play with!

 

I could understand someone disagreeing with me in a game. I'd propose my interpretation regardless of whether I was firing or being fired upon and if my opponent disagreed, I'd propose we roll a dice for it.

[Quixus]

EDIT: I get it.  If all templates happened at once (and you had both flamers and hand flamers) you would cause way more damage than the way it is now because the models which would be killed by my flamer would still take hits from my hand flamer which could potentially kill the models that survived the first flamer, instead of the hand flamer only killing models hit by the hand flamer.  

Exactly.