DWRF/SF and joining ICs

[PhilB]

Hey Everyone,

 

Just a quick one regarding joining an Independent Character (in terminator armour) from say a CAD or as your Inner Circle slot in a Lion's Blade Strike Force to a squad of Deathwing from either a DWRF or a DWSF.

The Deathwing squad will either automatically come in on the turn you nominate (DWRF) or you can choose the auto pass the reserve roll (DWSF + RWAS) but does the joined Independent Character need to roll his reserve roll separately or will he come in using the rules above with the squad he's attached to?

 

Thanks!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

He will come with the squad since he shares the squad rules and Tda.

[Solrac]

Actually he may share TDA but would not get any rules granted by the DWRF or DWSF as he is not part of that Detachment/Formation.

 

As per BRB Page 786 under Independent Character, Special Rules: When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

 

This means that both the Character and the Unit he has joined must have the Deathwing Assault Formation rule when running the DWRF or have the Summoned to War Detachment rule when using the DWSF for the unit to deploy in the manner stated. As the units in the DWRF and DWSF MUST be deployed in that manner they cannot be joined by a Character without the rules whilst in reserves (i.e a Character from a different Detachment/Formation). This does not stop said Character to join the unit once it's on the battlefield as the special shenanigans no longer applies.

 

This is the same with any other Detachments and Formation that alter the way they deploy and that MUST deploy in the way the rule specifies (e.g Skyhammer Annihilation Force).

 

Some people argue that the Character becomes part of the squad and therefore would be able to deploy by those means however the BRB clearly states that rules are not conferred unless specified and since the Character does not have the rule he cannot deploy using those special rules.

[Quixus]

Unless the formation rule states that all models in the unit must have it to work, it is not a question having a rule or not but who benefits from the rule. If models benefit from the rule the IC that is not part of the formation does not benefit (e.g. Shield Wall from Arjac's Shieldbrothers). If however the formation rule does something to the units of the formation (Summoned to War, Take the Fight to the Enemy, Deathwing Assault) and attached IC benefits from the rule despite not having it. Since ICs can join units before deployment, this even affects rules that modify deployment.

 

Whether this is intended by GW is anyone's guess.

[shabbadoo]

I agree, but the IC rules are not the main thing, the Detachment/Formation rules are.  ANY unit taken from a particular Detachment/Formation NEVER gains the rules of a different Detachment/Faction unless specifically stated (which NONE of them do). Such rules are specific to the units bought as part of that Detachment /Formation; they are never passed along.  A TDA character that is not part of a DWSF/DWRF and that is held in Reserves can't even be joined to a Deepstriking Deathwing unit from either Formation as the IC uses different Deepstriking deployment rules (i.e. the IC's is random, the DW unit's is not), and so the IC must either join a unit that does use the same normal Deepstriking rules that he does or not join a unit at all.

[Quixus]

A TDA character that is not part of a DWSF/DWRF and that is held in Reserves can't even be joined to a Deepstriking Deathwing unit from either Formation as the IC uses different Deepstriking deployment rules (i.e. the IC's is random, the DW unit's is not), and so the IC must either join a unit that does use the same normal Deepstriking rules that he does or not join a unit at all.

Please show me that rule. ICs can join other units from the same faction or of a faction that is battle brothers with the IC. There is nothing in the formation rules that changes that to my knowledge.

[shandwen]

If a rule states "unit" and a character joins that unit he falls under their rule, but if the rule states "model" then you are hosed. That is at least how I play the rules as it seems it is the most cut and dry way to view it, especially as a character joining a unit actually joins the unit.

You nevee roll separately for characters in a unit to come in from reserves as they are part of that squad, and nowhere in the rules does it say that the squad looses that rule if another character has joined (or that characters cannot join).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Here are the rules of the DWSF.

Summoned to war: All units in this detachment must begin the game in reserve DS. The IC from a  CAD can also be in reserve deepstrike if he has a TDA suit, so no problem here. If there is a bla, bla,bla RW you can choose to pass or fail reserve rolls for units in this detachemnt. Since the IC is partof the unit before there is a DS, he can also pass or fail the roll with his unit.

First Knight of Caliban. Not DS related.

Take the Fight to the enemy. Not DS related but the IC can comply if he joins a unit of the detachment.

 

Rules of the DWRF

 

Deathwing assault: All units in this formation must be placed in DS Reserve. The IC in TDA can also because he has TDA. Bla, bla,bla, All units in this formation automatically arrive by deepstrike atthe start of the chosen turn. Since the IC is attached to a unit ofthe formation, he is for all purpose alsoa unit of the formation thus eligible to start when the others start by virtue of being attached.

 

Take the Fight to the enemy: Not DS relevant.

 

So IMHO, a DA leader not from the detachment/formation could indeed hitch a ride as long as he has the TDA that allows him to behave as the units in the Formation. A simple power armour character couldn't because he is not elegible to be placed in DS reserve.

 

That's my logic behind it. I admit thought, to assume a 100% safe stance I would not attach a CAD character to a formation.

[SnakeChisler]

Hey guys just been looking over this whole area with the Ravenwing strike force

 

The Ravenwing squads in the formation don't roll for coming in from reserve (they auto pass) this is not a special rule just for them it's all covered in the BRB on reserves and IC's and how they interact is covered too

 

The Deathwing SF gets similar + a bonus of run then shoot which isn't covered and is an additional rule so your IC can't do that, if your going down within 12" of a bike squad then that's covered in the BRB as long as the 1St model down has the Benefit then everyone is deployed round him

 

If you look at these on a case by case basis it sort of hangs together

[CovertToaster]

It's the definition of "All units in this detachment/formation"

 

Is the IC considered to be a unit?

 

Is the IC a unit from a detachment/formation with said rule?

 

Personally I don't think I'd allow it as I can't understand why you would buy an IC with one detachment to be used in another and GW probably never considered this outcome either.

[Quixus]

Is the IC considered to be a unit?

Only if he is not joined to another unit.

 

Is the IC a unit from a detachment/formation with said rule?

No, but he is one model in a unit from that formation with that rule, as long as he is joined to such a unit.

 

Personally I don't think I'd allow it as I can't understand why you would buy an IC with one detachment to be used in another and GW probably never considered this outcome either.

Because you want the units of that detachment to benefit from the IC (librarian, chaplain etc.) or you want the IC to benefit from the rules of a unit in the detachment.

Haven't you considered the Lion's Blade Detachment with a battle demi-company and an inner circle? Does the Company Master/Chaplain form the Inner Circle have to walk around alone? By now attaching an IC from one detachment to a unit from another detachment is pretty standard.

[SnakeChisler]

Of course they considered it

 

You get an IC from a demi-company & they can join any unit in your army

 

The demi + auxiliary & Strike Forces are just ways to organise your force as is a CAD the blurb is all on p95 of our codex

[PhilB]

Hmm, lots of different views on this.

Might just be best to go over this with my opponent and let him decide, then he can't come back on it later.

 

Thanks for all your opinions everyone.

[Solrac]

The debate has nothing to do whether the IC can or should join another unit in another detachment. As Quixus said this part is pretty standard and has been done many times before.

 

Both Summoned to War and Deathwing Assault Special Rules from the relative Detachment/Formation alter the way you would normally deploy reserves, both rules say it only applies to units in the detachment/formation. By definition this means models taken as part of that unit/detachment. As the IC from a different Detachment/Formation and does not have this Special Rule they do not confer (as per the BRB) and therefore can't deploy in that altered manner. This is the same as Infiltrate. Even though the BRB clearly defines Infiltrating in it's own paragraph/sub section it is still treated the same. The IC may have Deep Strike being in TDA but does not have the altered deployment conditions granted by the Special Rule.

 

This is also the same as people putting an IC with a Jump Pack in with the Assault Squad of a Skyhammer. The Special Rules regarding their deployment (Deep Striking in T1 or T2 automatically) and then assaulting the turn they come in do not confer to the IC even though he is part of the squad. If the IC does not have the Special Rule he cannot deploy in that manner. The question in both cases isn't that the IC cannot join the unit but rather the IC cannot deploy in the way granted by the Special Rule. The bottom line is if the IC cannot deploy with his unit then the IC cannot join the unit.

 

All Tournaments around here treat this in this manner even though it is not that clearly defined but use the solid basis of how Special Rules in the BRB work to treat it this way.

 

Personally I would love it for Characters from other Detachments/Formations to do this as you could come up with even more variety of combos.

[Interrogator Stobz]

As much as I'd like to apply Chaplain Lucifer's interpretation, I think that the formation rules apply to units in this detachment and not to units attached to units in the detachment/formation (unless specified). To me the rule applies when you build your list and not when you deploy, I'm not a fan of order of operations but I think in this case it holds.

 

Once attached the ICs are in the detachment by association, but I am hesitant to apply the special rules to the ICs because it is only an association and the BRB is clear about sharing rules. How strong that is should be made clearer in some instances.

[Quixus]

@Solrac & Brother Stobz: Let me break it down for you once more. An IC that joins a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes. An IC can join a unit before deployment. So he counts as part of the unit before deployment. The unit (but not the IC) has a special rule. That special rule applies to the unit. The IC is part of the unit, so the special rule applies to him, whether he has it or not. It does not get much clearer with GW rules.

[Solrac]

@Solrac & Brother Stobz: Let me break it down for you once more. An IC that joins a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes. An IC can join a unit before deployment. So he counts as part of the unit before deployment. The unit (but not the IC) has a special rule. That special rule applies to the unit. The IC is part of the unit, so the special rule applies to him, whether he has it or not. It does not get much clearer with GW rules.

I would agree with you if there wasn't a whole section on how Special Rules work with IC's and the units they join and a clear example with Infiltrating units outlining this exact example where the IC and the unit both have to have Infiltrate in order to deploy in that way before the game starts.

 

An IC may count as part of the unit for all rules purposes (with the exception of special rules) but that does not mean the IC is not there or no longer exists.

 

By your logic above an IC with TDA joining a Tactical Squad would still be able to Sweeping Advance but we all know that is not the case as the IC's TDA would prevent the unit from doing so. Different Special Rules between the IC and the unit would still effect how the unit would operate even if they are all one unit.

 

Below is a clarification on this matter taken from the Australia and New Zealand 40k FAQ that most TO's use in their Tournaments here in Australia:

Any Special Rule that is gained by a unit due to a command benefit, formation special rule or any other means prior to the commencement of the game is treated the same as a Special Rule listed in a unit entry. As such any Independent Character joining this unit does not benefit from this Special Rule unless specifically stated in the Special Rule (eg. Stubborn) and vice versa.

 

Sorry mate but this is not as clear cut as you make it sound when you have some other rules in the rulebook contradicting it whether you choose to see it or not.

[shabbadoo]

 

A TDA character that is not part of a DWSF/DWRF and that is held in Reserves can't even be joined to a Deepstriking Deathwing unit from either Formation as the IC uses different Deepstriking deployment rules (i.e. the IC's is random, the DW unit's is not), and so the IC must either join a unit that does use the same normal Deepstriking rules that he does or not join a unit at all.

Please show me that rule. ICs can join other units from the same faction or of a faction that is battle brothers with the IC. There is nothing in the formation rules that changes that to my knowledge.

 

I'll throw your statement back at you - please show me the rule which tells us how to not roll/ roll Reserves for a combined unit that automatically/does not automatically show up from Reserves on a particular Turn.  You won't find one obviously. The deployment rules for these units are *DIFFERENT*.  A TDA IC that is not taken as part of a DWSF/DWRF only has the Deepstrike rule.  DWSF/DWRF units have a *MODIIFED* Deepstrike rule, meaning they have *DIFFERENT* deployment rules.   You don't get to deploy units with different deployment rules in exactly the same way.  Exactly how is this some sort of outlandish concept?

[Quixus]

 

@Solrac & Brother Stobz: Let me break it down for you once more. An IC that joins a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes. An IC can join a unit before deployment. So he counts as part of the unit before deployment. The unit (but not the IC) has a special rule. That special rule applies to the unit. The IC is part of the unit, so the special rule applies to him, whether he has it or not. It does not get much clearer with GW rules.

I would agree with you if there wasn't a whole section on how Special Rules work with IC's and the units they join and a clear example with Infiltrating units outlining this exact example where the IC and the unit both have to have Infiltrate in order to deploy in that way before the game starts.

 

Infiltrate explicitly states that ICs may not join units with that rule unless the ICs have the rule as well.

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

That is not the case for the Deathwing Assault or Summoned to War.

 

An IC may count as part of the unit for all rules purposes (with the exception of special rules) but that does not mean the IC is not there or no longer exists.

Who said or even implied that? Of vourse the IC is still there but unless explicitly stated he has no ability to remove or disable rules from the unit he has joined. If the rule benefits units he benefits as well (despite not having the rule himself), if the rule benefits models, he does not. If the rule requires all models to have the rule to work, the unit including the IC does not benefit.

 

By your logic above an IC with TDA joining a Tactical Squad would still be able to Sweeping Advance but we all know that is not the case as the IC's TDA would prevent the unit from doing so. Different Special Rules between the IC and the unit would still effect how the unit would operate even if they are all one unit.

Again there is an explicit exception:

 

Some units, as detailed in their special rules, are not permitted to make Sweeping Advances – when a victorious unit contains one or more models that are not allowed to make a Sweeping Advance, the enemy always manages to disengage safely – there is no need to roll.

 

 

Below is a clarification on this matter taken from the Australia and New Zealand 40k FAQ that most TO's use in their Tournaments here in Australia:

Any Special Rule that is gained by a unit due to a command benefit, formation special rule or any other means prior to the commencement of the game is treated the same as a Special Rule listed in a unit entry. As such any Independent Character joining this unit does not benefit from this Special Rule unless specifically stated in the Special Rule (eg. Stubborn) and vice versa.

Houserules, no matter how popular, have no bearing on the RAW.

 

 

 

 

A TDA character that is not part of a DWSF/DWRF and that is held in Reserves can't even be joined to a Deepstriking Deathwing unit from either Formation as the IC uses different Deepstriking deployment rules (i.e. the IC's is random, the DW unit's is not), and so the IC must either join a unit that does use the same normal Deepstriking rules that he does or not join a unit at all.

Please show me that rule. ICs can join other units from the same faction or of a faction that is battle brothers with the IC. There is nothing in the formation rules that changes that to my knowledge.

 

I'll throw your statement back at you - please show me the rule which tells us how to not roll/ roll Reserves for a combined unit that automatically/does not automatically show up from Reserves on a particular Turn.  You won't find one obviously. The deployment rules for these units are *DIFFERENT*.  A TDA IC that is not taken as part of a DWSF/DWRF only has the Deepstrike rule.  DWSF/DWRF units have a *MODIIFED* Deepstrike rule, meaning they have *DIFFERENT* deployment rules.   You don't get to deploy units with different deployment rules in exactly the same way.  Exactly how is this some sort of outlandish concept?

They may have different deployment rules, but the IC joins before deployment. There is no rule against an IC joining a unit with different rules. Don't you agree?

 

Once he has joined he is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes with the exception that rules are not conferred among the IC and the other models in the unit. There is no general rule that models in a unit that do not have a rule cannot benefit from it. It depends on the wording of the rule.

 

Now deployment begins. The unit has the modified deep strike rule, so it deploys according to that rule. This is because that rule applies to the unit, not all models in the unit that have it. The rule does not have a statement that it does not work at all unless all models in the unit have it either. So the IC deploys with them as he is part of that unit for all rules purposes

[shabbadoo]

ICs do become a part of a unit they join for all rules purposes, *except for the following*:

 

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e245/btmcrae/ICsSRs.png

 

Pretty dang explicit explanation, isn't it.  We don't get to ignore that whole bit "just because." The TDA IC does NOT get to use any DWSF/DWRF unit's Summoned to War/Deathwing Assault rules *because those rules do not specifically state they transfer to any ICs joining the unit* (in fact, the wording of both rules has them only applying to units from the Detachment/Formation, meaning units that are included as part of a DWSF/DWRF, which the TDA IC was not).  If either rule did transfer, they would have been written in the format, "If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule,...", but neither do, so your TDA IC - *which was bought from outside the Detachment/Formation and also does not share the unit's special rules* - will be left sitting on the Battle Barge with his thumb up his bum, waiting for the teleporter generator to power up...whenever...to make use of *his* special rule, which is just plain ol' Deepstrike.  The DWSF/DWRF units on the other hand will be arriving exactly when you want them to.

 

Furthermore, as to being unable to join the unit, the precedent we have is Infiltrate. When a unit deploys in a particular way, and an IC which could join the unit cannot also deploy in that particular way, either the deployment ability cannot be used or the IC cannot join the unit at all to begin with.  In the case of the DWSF's/DEWRF's deployment special rules, they MUST be used (i.e. we do not have the option to simply not use them, as is the case with Infiltrate), so any IC that cannot also use these rules cannot join the unit to begin with.  We don't get to block/ignore mandatory rules "just because," nor do we get to pass them along "just because."  Literally everything in the rules points to not being able to do what you say can be done, and you can point to not a single thing in the rules that backs up your point of view.