Helias_Tancred Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 I have the Antor Delassio model, and I gave him a plasma pistol instead of his hand flamer, and I got him with the intention of being an assault squad sergeant or a vanguard veteran squad sergeant. What uses can we get from a nice 5 man vanguard veteran squad? or does the DC and SG overshadow so much that V.V.s don't have a place or role with us? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 It depends on how you play, I guess. I play more narratively, so I actually have a roster of marines. When I deploy my troops into simultaneous battles, they can each only be in the combat they were deployed to. As they die, they get marked off the roster. So I may deploy my SG with my SP in one battle, and my Vanguard Vets in another for that campaign round. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Vanguard Veterans are more flexible than either Sanguinary Guard or Death Company. They don't excel at either of the roles the other two squads do, but with access to melta-bombs, pistols for days, and Storm Shields, they can be very easily be equipped to do a specific job. What that job is, and whether you need them to do that job is entirely dependent on your list, meta, and playing style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebs_evo7 Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 I really only play them in the flesh tearers formation blood rain strike force and only play that because it's fun. I generally stick with death company because i enjoy them a lot more. I think what they have going for them is hidden power weapons, storm shields and melta bombs. Actually i think they main thing they have going for them is building and painting a cool model Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoridon Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 I've been pondering the same thing, having bought a set to build as a 5-man VV escort for a Captain with relic blade. Problem is I've spent weeks now considering the options and still being unsure, especially in relation to our other codex units. Here's my thinking: SG have the 2+ against massed shooting and with the chapter banner add a nice +1 attack to Dante as his escort. With his hit & run, a priest added for FnP and mostly swords they can keep charging back in for WS5 S5 I5 master crafted AP3 hits. They lack an invul but that's a lot of charging prowess. However, take out Dante and the squad loses a lot of that utility, being an expensive unit that can get tied up in combat. DC do something a lot better than our other combat units, generating an insane number of attacks. On their own they can tear through things, add Astaroth and even the basic chainsword becomes mighty. You can gear the DC against a lot of different targets depending on points budget and if you compare the different squads on their own, without special characters added, DC beat our other assaulters. They also have the added versatility of relentless for charging after bolter fire. VV at a baseline level aren't as strong as they above two units. They lack the attacks of the DC, have no baseline FnP and basic weapons. You can give each a power sword and they're still weaker than SG (no 2+, no master-crafted) despite now being more expensive, and don't offer that chapter banner attack. In terms of damage output they lose out to the others but they bring one thing to the table: storm shields. You can gear these up as flying hammernators (TH/SS), which is expensive but would look awesome. The possibly more sensible approach is to give 3 models a storm shield to act as tanks for AP2-3 damage and aim to add durability to a protected model tucked in behind. That then brought me to comparing VV and a Command Squad, as both can have storm shields. The CS brings FnP but the champion has that annoying 'must challenge' rule and only 3 models have optional loadouts. If you use all 3 as shield-wearing 'tanks' you can't stick a stronger weapon on someone to sit behind them. You lose a lot of flexibility in order to bring that FnP, and jump packs cost a lot more for them. The VV can be geared however you want them, any number of shields / ablative wounds / upgraded weapons. For me it came down to how I wanted to use the squad, and that's as a bodyguard for a relic blade captain with jump pack who's going monster hunting. He's likely to face a lot of T6 MCs, many with Str 8+ damage so armour saves would be irrelevant and the FnP from a command squad wouldn't be used in that situation. If he takes a single wound he dies so he'd need to survive as long as possible. A unit of VV allows me to put 3 shields on guys to tank MC damage, put a second relic blade on the sergeant to act as the second damage dealer and the final model to either add another damaging weapon, another shield or leave bare as an ablative wound. Plus you can add extra models for extra flexibility. They wouldn't have close to the damage output of the SG or DC but they could keep the captain alive longer to do his thing. There's then the option of simply switching out the VV Serg and 5th model for an apothecary (novitiate) and champion to use them as a command squad instead for a bit less damage but gaining FnP in addition to the shields. So that all ended up in this conclusion: - SG go into play if I use Dante, giving him an extra attack from the banner and using his hit & run.- DC are the go-to unit for an assault focused squad acting on their own, and even better with Astaroth or Lemartes thrown in. - VV shine as a more defensively focused squad to potect ICs lacking eternal warrior, bringing storm shields to the table. - If likely to be mostly facing damage at 7 Str or lower, can easily change VV to a CS to gain FnP. So yeah, a long ramble but that was my thinking on the issue. I probably wouldn't use VVs on their own (unless trying a flying hammernator approach) but in this case I think they're the ideal option to protect my captain while he flies around hitting things. They'd bring the 3++ with their shields to try to hold off wounds that would otherwise cause instant death when fighting high strength MCs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Pretty much as above, they offer a jump pack unit entirely equipped with storm shields. The advantage over command squads is number of bodies available. Also, don't forget the pistols - you can take 1-2 grav pistols in the unit to assist with powerfists (you might want to consider that, Thoridon, if you use hem for monster hunting). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 This. This is what they offer: http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah177/nevscorner/20151115_163759_zpsumqrfkx7.jpg They're also great MC Hunters. A small squad with a grav pistol or two and powrfists/ thunder hammers and Shields can dish out and take the hurt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paikis Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 You really should paint that squad Charlo. It'll look absolutely tits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 You really should paint that squad Charlo. It'll look absolutely tits. That's what the ETL is for :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted April 29, 2016 Author Share Posted April 29, 2016 So I count 9 hand flamer templates from that gang. LOL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 That's exactly right, Helias. That's exactly right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted April 29, 2016 Author Share Posted April 29, 2016 That would be nice to see in a game from one squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 That would be nice to see in a game from one squad. And it is exactly what I shall do once they are painted. If we get a formation that lets us charge from deep strike with those I'll honestly cry with happiness/ maniacal laughter. The dream is I get a librarian that knows Misfortune so I can give them rending. Yup. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4379427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 When I first saw charlo's hand flamed vv I knew mine needed to have dual plasma pistols. Can't post the pic from mobile, but the image is in one of my galleries. They look so cool. I don't know exactly what it is, but I love plasma weapons. It's probably the gets hot rule to be honest. BUT TEN PLASMA PISTOLS IN ONE SAUAD! It's a terrible and wonderful idea all at the same time. That being said, I will be vowing for the sisters in this, my first ETL (and first time painting minis). All right, now that I've said all that off topic stuff, I never really run my vv because i modeled them with 2lc and th/ss. I guess unless you really need the shields just use dc. The problem is that the shield is still just a 3+, and if you aren't up against a lot of ap3 it can be a waste of points. Plus that time that daemon prince made them hallucinate and hammer each other, twice . . . Well those are my thoughts. How sever, they can be really nice if you can get them into cc. Still points intensive though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4380401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTaW Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 ^ I have faced that and it's surprisingly effective. Just roll your shots separately for the purpose of Gets Hot and wound allocation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4380469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Librarian with divination. Win! My gut thought would be combi Sternguard are just better, but the VV have some advantages. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4380499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 The one thing I really think Vanguard have over SG or DC is access to storm shields. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4380612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share Posted May 1, 2016 When I first saw charlo's hand flamed vv I knew mine needed to have dual plasma pistols. Can't post the pic from mobile, but the image is in one of my galleries. They look so cool. I don't know exactly what it is, but I love plasma weapons. It's probably the gets hot rule to be honest. BUT TEN PLASMA PISTOLS IN ONE SAUAD! It's a terrible and wonderful idea all at the same time. That being said, I will be vowing for the sisters in this, my first ETL (and first time painting minis). All right, now that I've said all that off topic stuff, I never really run my vv because i modeled them with 2lc and th/ss. I guess unless you really need the shields just use dc. The problem is that the shield is still just a 3+, and if you aren't up against a lot of ap3 it can be a waste of points. Plus that time that daemon prince made them hallucinate and hammer each other, twice . . . Well those are my thoughts. How sever, they can be really nice if you can get them into cc. Still points intensive though. Storm shields saved a little of my bacon today, when I went up against a very shooty Dark Eldar warband, which many of their weapons were the S8 AP2 variety :( ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4380908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoridon Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Also, don't forget the pistols - you can take 1-2 grav pistols in the unit to assist with powerfists (you might want to consider that, Thoridon, if you use hem for monster hunting). Good point, I forget about those as they didn't exist last time I played. My plan was a plasma pistol on the Captain for an extra chance of an AP2 wound before the charge, and then him and the Sergeant with relic blades for Str 7 attacks at initiative. With the other VVs having chainswords they wouldn't score many wounds each but all together should be enough to take down something like a Carnifex before it could strike back. That way they'd get the kill without suffering any losses, whereas fists / hammers would be striking the same time as the MC if it was reduced to 1 initiative and likely lose a couple of models. I've been aiming to gear my 'MC hunters' to strike at initiative where possible, with the exception of some TH/SS Terminators which would go for the heaviest targets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4381134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I wish the kit came with as many power swords as it does thunder hammers, because I would rather have them all with shields and swords than shields and hammers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4382375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Thoridon, have you considered a Grav pistol for the MC hunters? Most MCs are 3+, and only a few are 4+, so you'll be wounding fairly reliably, and it'll knock them all down to initiative 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4382661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoridon Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Thoridon, have you considered a Grav pistol for the MC hunters? Most MCs are 3+, and only a few are 4+, so you'll be wounding fairly reliably, and it'll knock them all down to initiative 1. Will have to see about swapping the Captain's plasma pistol for a grav pistol. Even if I stick with relic blades and power swords/lances for I6/5 attacks on the charge it'd help for those times the unit goes for something like a Hive Tyrant that has I5 itself. I'll pretty much be playing against Tyranids with a varied collection of MCs so yes, they're all T6 3+. A grav pistol wounding on 3+ would need the same rolls as the plasma pistol but gain concussive, I overlooked that. I'd just need to remodel the Captain a little as he's built from the SG kit with wrist mounted plasma pistol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4382719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 It's also useful when you're running the Captain in a unit with any kind of Unwieldy, because all his lads will get to hit, even if it is at the same time as the big Gribbly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4382722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted May 4, 2016 Author Share Posted May 4, 2016 Questions: For all questions the Vanguard Vet Sergeant is armed with a chain sword and a plasma pistol. That is the constant. I can't change him (Antor Delassio with a PP swapped out for the HF- love the model!) 1. How would you equip a Blood Angel 4 man vanguard vet squad for monster hunting and independent character/hero/warlord hunting? 2. For an anti-armor role? 3. To deal with MEQs? Thanks Brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4383873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Tomorrow i will have a 2000 Points casual game against Daemons and CSM. Testing 10 Vanguard with JP 5 SS and 1 Gravgun. Along with Sang Priest and Chaplain and PFist. Small Battle Report on friday incoming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321916-what-role-does-vanguard-vets-fill-for-ba/#findComment-4384024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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