question regarding ultramarines

[Deekthegreat]

hey guys so i'm building an ultra marines army and i also have a massive love for gun lines of any sort and just artillery in general there is already an iron warriors army in our group so i'm trying to avoid going to them as an option.   my google-fu is terribad and i cant find any info regarding the ultramarines and the gun line tactics of let the enemy come to me while i blast them to hell and back.  any thoughts?  

[Balthamal]

The Ultramarines were the Legion that typified "Jack of all trades, master of none" they had every base covered and their Legion Astartes rules support this interlocking fire and disciplined bolter volleys so you're very much on solid ground

[Soldier of Dorn]

Didn't something like this happen in Betrayer, on Armatura when the WE are charging the Ultramarines? I seem to remember a gunline and Vindicators. Could be me misremembering, though.

[blackoption]

Ultramarines have their own variant of Seige Tyrant Terminators.  Additionally, rules wise, the Interlocking tactics supports a gun line style army fairly well, as does one of their rites of war (the Locos I believe it is called).

[Combat_Vet]

@ Psycho - yea, Khârn's blood speckled "our turn" quote to the Smurf's shield wall was one of the most memorable lines in the book.

 

The Ultra's placed their artillery behind their shield wall and forced the World Eaters to charge through the "steel rain" in order to come to grips. The also placed to initial volleys behind the WE effectively driving them forward into the grinder of the UM line.

 

It's basic combined arms tactics taken into a sci-fi setting. The Queen of battle (Infantry is mobile and powerful and protects the King) and the King of Battle (Artillery is slow and devastating but requires protection). Chess leads to war and war leads to 40K :)

[Deekthegreat]

I like that. Im trying to figure out how to incorporate the cool szuerins in my list but my elites are probably gonna be clogged with quad mortars

[noigrim]

Ultramarines are most OP legion, with guilliman+sicarans for the shooting and locutarus/invictarii for assaults. But hey what did you expect for GW's 40k flagship?

[blackoption]

Ultramarines are most OP legion, with guilliman+sicarans for the shooting and locutarus/invictarii for assaults. But hey what did you expect for GW's 40k flagship?

 

I fail to see how you call the legion OP.  We have some effective combos, but no better than Raven Guard, Sons of Horus, or Alpha Legion.  Our only real stand out special unit is the Invictarius Suzerians, but even as a stand out they are no auto-win.  The Locutarus are out performed by Dark Furies (and arguable Night Raptors) and they are not as well rounded as the Reavers of the SoH.  Our special terminators are comparable to Siege Tyrants, but would be mauled by Fire Drakes, Death Shroud, or Justerian in an assault.  Our legion's strength is that we can be flexible in how we fight. 

 

Additionally, each legion can be OP when you play exclusively to their strengths.  Your comment, at this stage, seems to be little more than just regurgitated ultra hate that is just as old now as it was 5 years ago.

[Balthamal]

^^This

[noigrim]

ultras have the only unit AP 2 at initiative and the locutarus cost practically the same than a vanilla assault squad

[Reyner]

ultras have the only unit AP 2 at initiative and the locutarus cost practically the same than a vanilla assault squad

Only 5 Locutarus in a starting squad so they are kind of double the price of a vanilla assault squad... sort of.

[blackoption]

ultras have the only unit AP 2 at initiative and the locutarus cost practically the same than a vanilla assault squad

 

Umm... no.  EC's Phoenix guard spears are AP2 on the charge (at initative) that more characters can have.  Coupled with Talent for Murder, NL chainglaives rend on a 5+ that more characters can have.  White scars special weapon can be AP2 (at initiative) or AP3 depending on the profile use.  The Blood Angels have an AP2 sword that does double wounds. Death Guard's scythes are now AP2 at -1 initiative (better than unwieldy).  So if your complaint is that the Ultra's are special because of the axe, well then you aren't looking very hard at the other special weapons out there.

 

Additionally, general consensus remains that more bodies (especially in HH) is better than fewer bodies.  We get 5 Locutarus at that price, compared to ten asssault.  Regarding quality over quantity, that squad only gets power swords (AP3) with options of AP2 on the sergeant.  Meanwhile, the Dark Fury and Night Lords both get rending weapons, Palatine Blades can all get AP2 spears, and Reavers can get Banestrike Bolters or (or everyone's favorite) volkite weapons.  The only special skill the Locutarus has is that it can double tap on the turn it deep strikes.  So if your complaint is that our elite assault squad is OP'd, you might want to check at what some of the other legions can do with comparable units.

[Balthamal]

 

ultras have the only unit AP 2 at initiative and the locutarus cost practically the same than a vanilla assault squad

 

 Coupled with Talent for Murder, NL chainglaives rend on a 5+ that more characters can have.  

 

Not sure where you're pulling that from but +1 to wound doesn't mean rending occurs on 5+. It simply means that whatever score is required to wound is lowered by 1. No mention of any exception to the regular rending rule in the text for A Talent for Murder

 

As for Locutarus, they're not a patch on the Invictarii and even they aren't OP in comparison to some of the dedicated assault units out there. That isn't to say UM can't be effective in assaults, they can, stupidly so in some cases, but stating they're OP based on the perceived strengths of 2 assault units in an edition that significantly favors shooting is a joke. The UM's best unit are the Fulmentarus Terminators, who are instantly handicapped by not being as good as Iron Tyrants without an extra 3/4 bodies at 40 odd points a pop.

[noigrim]

 

ultras have the only unit AP 2 at initiative and the locutarus cost practically the same than a vanilla assault squad

 

Umm... no.  EC's Phoenix guard spears are AP2 on the charge (at initative) that more characters can have.  Coupled with Talent for Murder, NL chainglaives rend on a 5+ that more characters can have.  White scars special weapon can be AP2 (at initiative) or AP3 depending on the profile use.  The Blood Angels have an AP2 sword that does double wounds. Death Guard's scythes are now AP2 at -1 initiative (better than unwieldy).  So if your complaint is that the Ultra's are special because of the axe, well then you aren't looking very hard at the other special weapons out there.

 

Additionally, general consensus remains that more bodies (especially in HH) is better than fewer bodies.  We get 5 Locutarus at that price, compared to ten asssault.  Regarding quality over quantity, that squad only gets power swords (AP3) with options of AP2 on the sergeant.  Meanwhile, the Dark Fury and Night Lords both get rending weapons, Palatine Blades can all get AP2 spears, and Reavers can get Banestrike Bolters or (or everyone's favorite) volkite weapons.  The only special skill the Locutarus has is that it can double tap on the turn it deep strikes.  So if your complaint is that our elite assault squad is OP'd, you might want to check at what some of the other legions can do with comparable units.

 

on the charge? unreliable, stormeagle suzerains'll chop them to pieces anytime

[blackoption]

Storm Eagle Suzerians also cost a lot more.  Additionally, most assault terminators would chop up a 3+ armor unit on the charge.  I fail to see you the point in your statement.  My point still stands that AP2 at initiative is not exclusive to the Ultramarines. So forgive me when I ask, what further complaint do you have that suggests the Ultras are an OP legion?  The Ultra special units are strong, but none of them are overwhelming in their respective fields.  Our Legion special weapon is an axe that is limited to independent characters and Suzerians.  Yet other legions have AP2 options that are at or near initiative.  A few of those have those options down to the character level.  The only thing that hasn't been argued is our legion special rules.  Yet I would have a hard time believing that, as the top tier legions in the power gaming circles are RG, AL, SoH, and Daemon allied WBs.  Each legion thus far can have a strong build (though Dark Angels may have harder times with this). 

 

noigrim,  it seems like you are expressing a personal bias as an accepted fact.  While I acknowledge that the XIIIth has their detractors, hating on another legion for perceived issues of favoritism strikes me as immature.

 

The original post was about the Ultramarine Legion's merits as a gun line army.  Now, Guilliman and Sicarians is an effective combo.  But to be fair, Guilliman is a force multiplier for most builds.  To the OP.  If you want to explore potential static gunline builds, I'd suggest looking at the Logos Rite.  Otherwise, most static gunlines will include mortars, gun tracks, vindicators, and dedreo dreadnaughts with infantry support. 

 

Regarding the Suzerians,  remember that they can also be a HQ choice for a Legion Praetor.  So if you can use them without taking an elite's choice.

[noigrim]

ultras are the only legion with AP 2 at initiative always, every turn, so don't fool yourself, and guilliman provides better buffs than his brothers, also the special assault units are underpriced for what they do, locutarus specially. Hell you could field guilliman+2 suzerains and pass from pricy tacticals.

 

Basically their legion rules aren't Op their special stuff is

[Balthamal]

ultras are the only legion with AP 2 at initiative always, every turn, so don't fool yourself, and guilliman provides better buffs than his brothers, also the special assault units are underpriced for what they do, locutarus specially. Hell you could field guilliman+2 suzerains and pass from pricy tacticals.

 

Basically their legion rules aren't Op their special stuff is

 

You're wrong, Blood Angels can have it and any Praetor totting a Paragon Blade has it. If you're talking unit wide that's a different kettle of fish.

 

You're vastly overstating the effectiveness of the Legion special units however. Suzerains are a very good assault unit but against Fire Drakes/Gal Vorbak/Justaerin they'll die. Painfully. Fulmentarus are good, more so from the Legions Astartes special rule, to have them as good as Iron Tyrants they need 8+ models which comes with a hefty points outlay. Is it worth it? IMO yes but then that's points that could be going elsewhere and typhons/leviathans will delete them all the same. Locutarus are decent but 5 man base squads and the almost mandatory points tax to bump them to 10 takes the sheen off, plus I don't care how good they deep strike, they'll be blown off the board the turn afterwards regardless. Overall they're good units but hardly over powered and certainly not for their points costs.

 

As for Gulliman, he isn't the best single buffing Primarch, it's debatable whether the UM have the best overall package with a primarch in play (personally I'd say Alpharius led Alpha Legion or Perturabo and the IV at least for now) and most of that comes from their base Legiones Astartes rules. Curze and Horus do more individually for their Legions (when using Terror Assault in the case of Curze) than Gulliman too. 

 

To reiterate: The UMs are solidly upper mid tier in terms of the so called "power rankings" (I detest describing them like that because it implies a level of competition that is almost against what 30K stands for to my eyes) but they're hardly unbeatable, especially the Invictari who are comfortably the best unit the XIII can field

[Raktra]

1. ultras are the only legion with AP 2 at initiative always, every turn,

2. guilliman provides better buffs than his brothers

1. No they're not. White Scars and Blood Angels, who are better assaulters anyway.

2. *cough cough* Ferrus, Alpharius and Horus *cough*

[blackoption]

ultras are the only legion with AP 2 at initiative always,

I will reiterate my point.  UM axe, WS spear, and BA Sword are AP2 at initiative for Independent Characters. Additionally, Deathshroud Power Scythes are no longer unwieldy.  They now have reaping blow (-1 Init) which is still faster than a power axe or power fist. Bonus, those Scythes can go to ANY character that has access to a powerfist. As for the rest, I'll defer to Balthamal's answer as he already covered it.

[Slips]

Alright, guys, lets move this along and get back on topic.

[Ishagu]

An artillery based list could be powerful but it's a static way to play, and not something I'd personally enjoy.

 

Are you looking for a balanced army or just a focus on Artillery?

 

As for the Ultras in CC, we're one of the best Legions in that regard.

[Deekthegreat]

Im not looking for 100% gun line but thats where alot of focus would be. Im looking at kind of a vanguard army artillery blasting away javelins flying down the board suzerins slaughter in combat the special terminators kill things leviathan dreads coming down and blasting :cuss to shreds. You know spear tip style but less infantry

[Lord Blackwood]

So heres what you do friend , you buy a leviathan talon  ( THREE OF EM ) 

Some Mortars 

Some suzerians and the primarch in a raider 

A master of Signal and a Siege Breaker 

Two Sicarians 

Some more Rapiers 

and you uh ...  you listen to whatever Ishagu says cause I  dont know how to play ultramarines 

 

[noigrim]

if you want that you're gonna need at least a typhon since it ignores jink saves

[Raktra]

Standard Sicarans do too with the accelerator, they'll rip them to shreds.