Death from the Skies?

[rezin70]

Is it worth picking up as a BA player?  Do we finally get access to other flyers besides stormraven?  Cant find the info anywhere, thanks.

[Crimson Devil]

We get nothing new and lose skyfire on the Stormraven.

[Helias_Tancred]

Yeah if that supplement stays out of your immediate gaming group then lucky you.

[Brother_Angelus]

It makes mandatory changes to the way flyers work, and the dataslates supersede the ones in the codex. By all means you can 'house rule' at your local club to ignore it, but it's now part of the core game.

 

As for the benefits to BA? The flight patterns are the biggest thing, and allowing us to take multiple ravens outside of a standard force org chart can be beneficial too.

 

I'm personally very keen to give a flyer heavy BA list a try, considering the boons the 3/4 aircraft attack patterns offer for no additional costs. 4++, IWND & Interceptor on 4 ravens packed with DC, dreadnoughts and other BA goodies? Alright.

[Crimson Devil]

On the bright side, when your opponent's fighters shoot them down it saves you the trouble of getting your models out of the case.

[Quixus]

It makes mandatory changes to the way flyers work, and the dataslates supersede the ones in the codex.

Does the book say so? As far as I am concerned the book is just as optional as Stronghold Assault, Kill Team or Apocalypse (if that one still exists). The main rulebook states what publications can override its rules: codices and army list entries. Death From the Skies is neither.

 

So IMHO when you agree to use DftS you agree to no longer play (base) Warhammer 40k.

[Sir Ovbov]

IMO if it isn't an update to rule book itself, it isn't mandatory like stronghold assault so until it gets integrated into the main rulebook, I'm probably not going to get/ use it. 

[Charlo]

It's as optional as your group of friends/ tournament scene/ house-rules make it :)

 

No further clarification needed.

 

Personally getting up to 4 Ravens for one force org slot is awesome. Our now lack of decent anti-air isn't, but nothing stopping us grabbing a Stormeagle or two and painting it red if you are worried.

[Sir Ovbov]

I wouldn't mind it if we got at least the storm Talon so we had some sort of AA apart from FW or Flakk missiles. 

[Charlo]

Who knows what the next book will bring brother?

 

I honestly do think we'll see a unique flyer seeing as everyone else has one really, bar GK of course.

[NTaW]

We still have the ability to get Skyfire in the Dogfight phase on our Stormravens, but with the range of combat we're likely to never be within 12" of melta range barring the most fortuitous of situations. I've been seriously considering the typhoon missile launcher upgrade for my two Ravens to help mitigate those range issues. I often take the TLLC top turret anyway so no worries there.

 

Stormravens lost the ability to have Skyfire (barring Mysterious Objectives and maybe psychic powers) but they gained:

 

Objective Secured

Wing Leaders

a separate detachment helping to clear up our messy Heavy Support section (see also: make room for more Baals since I'm sure we collectively chirped about them moving in with SRs in the HS slot enough with the last book, eh?)

free and awesome rules for flying in Formation

Break Turns (even if it's only on a 1-2 is wasn't an option at all before)

Reserve manipulation if you have a Flier in Reserve, better manipulation if it's your Wing Leader (commander?) from an Air Superiority Detachment

Subtly faster flat out moves

 

Man that's a rough trade. Not to mention if you've already been toying with our Angel's Fury Spearhead those three Stormravens can form a Flier Wing and get all of the above bonuses without changing anything about your list, except since models can't belong to more than one Detachment you can't play them for the +/-2 Reserve manipulation. 

 

Not to mention you just know we'll get a new Flier when our book rolls around. Every other Marine book has a Fighter, we and GK are the only ones to be left out of the party. Hell, the DA Fighter is actually pretty boss for dogfights.

[Sir Ovbov]

If we do get a unique flyer, I want something that acts like the land speeder storm expect for Assault squads so we could give them a transport that they could assault out of, but only have like a single turret mounted weapon like a las cannon or heavy bolter etc. and cost less points than a storm raven.  

[Brother_Angelus]

 

 

It makes mandatory changes to the way flyers work, and the dataslates supersede the ones in the codex.

Does the book say so? As far as I am concerned the book is just as optional as Stronghold Assault, Kill Team or Apocalypse (if that one still exists). The main rulebook states what publications can override its rules: codices and army list entries. Death From the Skies is neither.

 

So IMHO when you agree to use DftS you agree to no longer play (base) Warhammer 40k.

I'm yet to hold the book in my hands but the articles and early reviews have quoted the book's rules “replace those from Warhammer 40,000: The Rules". Will have to see once I grab a copy.

[Quixus]

Stormravens lost the ability to have Skyfire (barring Mysterious Objectives and maybe psychic powers) but they gained:

 

Objective Secured

How so?

[Charlo]

The new rules give them Objective secured.

Objective Secured: All Transports from this Detachment which can Hover have the Objective Secured rule. A unit with this

special rule which is Hovering controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless

the enemy also has this special rule.

Basically, a Single Raven can be taken as a heavy support choice still, but in the unit Entry you can upgrade the unit to a Flyer Wing by adding "Up to Three more Stormravens"

This means it no longer is a HS choice but instead a Flyer Wing and gains the command benefits for being so. Of which, one is the Objective Secured benefit above

Basically, I'm buying another Storm Raven because having them as Obj Sec is pretty rad!

[NTaW]

So far the only Fighter that has a transport capacity is the Stormfang but it lacks the Assault Vehicle special rule of its in-Faction Attack Fighter brethren, the Stormwolf. No matter the Flier we get we sooner need the ability for our Assault marines to exclude themselves from jump packs without taking a Rhino or Drop Pod so that we can take advantage of it, but that's a comment for another thread.

 

Big ol' EDIT because I had to deal with a screaming baby mid post:

 

Stormravens only get ObSec if taken via an Air Superiority Detachment, so the Angel's Fury Fliers can't get that bonus which is kinda lame. I'm sure that one will be rejigged for us in whatever upcoming releases await.

 

 

 

It makes mandatory changes to the way flyers work, and the dataslates supersede the ones in the codex.

Does the book say so? As far as I am concerned the book is just as optional as Stronghold Assault, Kill Team or Apocalypse (if that one still exists). The main rulebook states what publications can override its rules: codices and army list entries. Death From the Skies is neither.

So IMHO when you agree to use DftS you agree to no longer play (base) Warhammer 40k.

I'm yet to hold the book in my hands but the articles and early reviews have quoted the book's rules “replace those from Warhammer 40,000: The Rules". Will have to see once I grab a copy.

 

 

Book says the Flier rules replace those found in the core book, all other rules (datasheets, Detachment) state essentially "this is how to use these models in 40k" with no mention of whether it trumps the Codex or not.

 

 pg.58 DftS:

This first section of the Burning Skies rules presents the expanded rules for Flyers, which replace those from Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

 

 

[Quixus]

So basically nothing.

[Charlo]

So basically nothing.

 

What is nothing Brother? I don't understand your comment!

 

As regarding to if this does replace the rules though - quoting the whole section just muddies the waters more, but it is worth showing:

 

It's not fully clear-cut though if you quote the entire section - as is always the way with these things!

 

 

Burning Skies provides updated rules for Flyers in games of Warhammer 40,000. These expand upon those from the rulebook, allowing you to use special Attack Patterns, to take part in vicious dogfights, to field ace pilots, and to fight thrilling Air War missions. This first section of the Burning Skies rules presents the expanded rules for Flyers, which replace those from Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

 

Allowing being the operative word here. They do replace the rule book, if you allow them to do so.

 

As I stated earlier, it is up to your groups discretion. 

[NTaW]

I was just quoting what the book says since a fellow Frater didn't know the wording, should have clarified and posted the whole thing as well. More interested in talking about how to employ it to our benefit.

 

The Blood Angel Wing Leader abilities are pretty decent, way better than the Flyer Ace nonsense from the old book. 1-2 adds one to our Pursuit value and makes us better at dogfights at least against Heldrakes and Valkyries (and presumably Vendettas). 2-4 is and auto-pass on Break Turns which is awesome for maneuvering. 5-6 I think is the coolest. When you're Wrecked or destroyed, you get to make one final attack before the damage is applied as if it were the Stormraven's Shooting phase. The first one is kinda the least useful but the other two are quite promising I think.

[Charlo]

Woah, those are pretty awesome actually. Auto passing Turns is very useful and going out in a BLAZE of glory? Sign me up!

[Quixus]

 

So basically nothing.

 

What is nothing Brother?

What I meant is that the rules do not say that one player can unilaterally replace the flyer rules for both players. If you agree to play with the Burning Skies rules they replace the flyer rules, if you don't, they don't, just like with Apocalypse and Kill Team.

[Charlo]

I suppose so yes. But they DO alter list building.

 

So I'd be aware of that. But in the age of unbound and formations I'd personally be more than happy for someone to use a flyer wing just as a formation without the benefits.

[Kyrne]

The argument of replacing BRB rules etc will go on forever and can be read both ways imo. People don't like change. Haha

 

As I read the pg58 blurb as, They replace the flyer rules plain and simple, if you use flyers you need the book. Where as folk can cherry pick words to go against it.

[rezin70]

Can we take an allied detachment of storm talons without  having to take the ally HQ/troop tax to stay battle forged?

​If so I may just paint a couple of talons red and call it good.

[Brother_Angelus]

Can we take an allied detachment of storm talons without  having to take the ally HQ/troop tax to stay battle forged?

 

​If so I may just paint a couple of talons red and call it good.

Yup, you'll need a chapter tactic and they won't benefit from BA codex specific stuff (BA Wing Leader table is about the only thing). Not sure if any tactics affect vehicles? Were the Iron Hands errata'd?