There was another Legion ... at Prospero

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well frankly I think this is a crap "revelation", but I'll try and stay open minded when the book finally drops.

 

WLK

[1ncarnadine]

 

This was supposed to be a pivotal iconic part of the Heresy and the WOlves major contribution.

 

By watering it down, flinging other legions and legio into the mix it renders it somewhat meaningless except as a moneygrab for some new shiny thing in the works.

dantay, You say watering down, I say enriching. The wolves of today are not the wolves of 1988 when I started. But to clear it up, the wolves are pivotal, but we are not just talking about the SW versus 1000sons as there is are much larger forces at work including two Titan legions. Space wolves are key, but the hand of the warmaster is evident (in the advisor company). bear in mind this is pre the Eisenstein flight and Horus is still considered completely loyal. Russ is the tool and puppet of Horus. The 1000 sons are very loyal to the point they are considered incorruptable even for marine and must be removed as an obstacle. Also the SW take heavy losses during the fighting.

 

Alan pondered, what if the heresy hadn't happened and the 1000sons became another redacted legion? Like the 2nd and 11th?

 

 

Enriching is a good word. It makes too much sense for a little messenger company of the XVIth to be there, and if there are other Titan Legios present in the Prospero system and others nearby as part of the clean-up, then why not Mortis too at this point? No one should suspect a thing. It would be more strange if they weren't there.

 

Talon of Horus has a cool bit where there's actually a Cthonian word the Black Legion uses to refer to the Wolves. I'm paraphrasing but it's a word that refers to a deceived party, but puts emphasis on the cunning of the deceiver and not the deceived. I thought that was a neat thought, because it's really true. I don't think less of the Space Wolves for being tricked into annihilating Prospero, nor do I feel like their role is marginalized by the inclusion of these other forces. The whole event is a tragedy. Which is also why it doesn't matter how well any party looks coming out of it or how much anyone "wins." Either way, humanity loses out in the end, and that's pretty much the bottom line of the entire Horus Heresy.

[GhostMalone]

Well I think this is a brilliant edition even if it's only a ba tallied command of SoH it shows that the Warmaster had his finger in everything to ensure it worked, russ was following orders directly from the Warmaster.

 

I think if you believe this to be an insult to the wolves to perhaps step back and realise not every Legion operated independent of the Warmaster.

 

He was the proxy emperor his word was law and russ in his prejudice would never question a decision that he would enjoy until it was to late.

 

good stuff Mr bligh

[Lord Blackwood]

I refuse to take part in this thread other than to say Atia's information should not be marginalized as it is consistently accurate and well sourced.

 

There's enough wolf hate from others on these boards to just make this sort of topic not worth reading in my opinion. Have fun the wolves are the best legion outside of the imperial fists.

[DuskRaider]

There's enough wolf hate from others on these boards to just make this sort of topic not worth reading in my opinion. Have fun the death guard are the best legion outside of the night lords.

 

I agree.

[1000 Sons]

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus forms a JTF to take down the strongest psychic legion on their home turf and commits anywhere from 100-300 of his own men to act as liaisons and advisors. To further reinforce the wolves he dispatchs titans and a contingent of custodes and sisters silentum all to ensure complete victory. Outrider fleets are dispatched to fix possible reinforcements in place to prohibit reinforcement of propero.

 

 

That doesn't sound like anything but the best depiction of Horus brilliance as a commander we've seen since book 4.

[Athrawes]

Horus forms a JTF to take down the strongest psychic legion on their home turf and commits anywhere from 100-300 of his own men to act as liaisons and advisors. To further reinforce the wolves he dispatchs titans and a contingent of custodes and sisters silentum all to ensure complete victory. Outrider fleets are dispatched to fix possible reinforcements in place to prohibit reinforcement of propero.

 

 

That doesn't sound like anything but the best depiction of Horus brilliance as a commander we've seen since book 4.

 

I agree entirely. 

 

I personally love the idea of there being some SoH assisting the Vlka during the razing of Prospero.

 

The only Issue I see with it, is that Horus wasn't just attempting to destroy the Thousand Sons, he was also trying to Destroy the Vlka, originally the goal being for two loyal Legions to destroy each other. So in that light, the addition of Legio Mortis and a company of SoH needs to be portrayed (In Horus' plans) as the additionally weight to bring both forces to parity to ensure mutual destruction, as opposed to merely shifting the balance strongly in the Vlkas favor. 

 

And that is the tricky part,  because for Horus' plans a slight Thousand Sons victory at Prospero is equivalent to a slight Space Wolf victory. He just needs to cripple/destroy two loyal Legions, he doesn't want 1 legion in particular to come out of the battle with a sizable chunk of their forces intact.

 

So I feel where some Space wolf fans might draw issue, is that in this portrayal for the Horus' plans to make sense, the Space Wolf Legion requires Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Legio Mortis AND a Company of Sons of Horus to reach parity with the Thousand Sons, and reach a point where both Legions can obliterate themselves without a largely undamaged victor.

 

+++

 

As I said I love the Idea of a Company of SoH at Prospero for the enrichment on offers the setting, but a lot of it depends on how it is portrayed. And in that, I trust Alan Bligh to make it as great as I hope for it to be!

[KBA]

This reminds me too much of when it was being revealed that all legions had their turn coats, not just the DA. Some of the DA players felt encroached upon, even though it made complete sense for the setting of a galactic civil war. The brilliance of FW's heresy run with their fluff has been taking an ancient White Dwarf article and making sense of it as a historical recount. You don't have to look long and hard to see where that ball has been dropped elsewhere. I'm not saying don't be passionate about the armies you collect, but don't make it sound as if FW is thieving the family crest above your fireplace, rearranging it, and then hanging it back up :)

[Fire Golem]

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

Agreed. I think this is only a good thing. 100/150 marines compared to basically 2 whole legions is hardly watering down the Wolves involvement at all.

[Dantay VI]

Completely disagree with most of thos. Will elaborate later.

Mever called yhe rest of the hh stuff crap.

 

How about they rewrite battle of Terra.

All legions were there cos IF BA & WS coild not be trusted to hold the walls?

 

That would enrich the Heresy.

[Dantay VI]

The studio tolerates wolves.

Last legion to get anything and we do not even get heads.

Cant be bothered finishing Bran but Moar Wraiyhknights etc.

 

Condtant delays was to get the T-Sons right.

 

The only thing I am looking forward to is the primarch model. Even the he got a Corax head graft. Which i woll take that comment back IF that head is still the placeholder head

[Black Cohort]

Completely disagree with most of thos. Will elaborate later.

Mever called yhe rest of the hh stuff crap.

 

How about they rewrite battle of Terra.

All legions were there cos IF BA & WS coild not be trusted to hold the walls?

 

That would enrich the Heresy.

 

I suspect by the time they get to Terra that all/ most loyalist legions will have at least a token force there, but that the vast majority of loyalist marines there are from the 3 legions known for being at Terra.

[Brother Sanvael]

 

So I feel where some Space wolf fans might draw issue, is that in this portrayal for the Horus' plans to make sense, the Space Wolf Legion requires Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Legio Mortis AND a Company of Sons of Horus to reach parity with the Thousand Sons, and reach a point where both Legions can obliterate themselves without a largely undamaged victor.

 

 

 

Well, they are attacking a legion homeworld complete with Spireguard etc.  The attacker would need a lot of resources to overcome the defenders natural advantages.

 

I like the idea of a small contingent of SoH being there, it just reinforces that it was the Warmasters plan all along

[Marshal Loss]

As a SoH fan, this is awesome if entirely unexpected given prior coverage of Prospero. Can't wait to see how this plays out

[DuskRaider]

I'm hoping some SoH line captain will be giving Russ orders. That'll make my day.

[m0nolith]

 

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

Agreed. I think this is only a good thing. 100/150 marines compared to basically 2 whole legions is hardly watering down the Wolves involvement at all.

 

A company within the Legions is about 1000 marines, not 100 like it is in the Chapters.

That being said, I still agree with you. 1000 SoH is negligible compared to a Legion of 100k+ Space Wolves.

Everything in the heresy was bigger!

 

Edit: Well, except for the Tyranids of course.

[helterskelter]

If the SoH are the ones attacking the prospero affiliated forgeworld then that's cool no problem.

If a single SoH sets foot on prospero I for one will not be buying the edited hardback copies of prospero burns and a thousand sons that have a shoe horned paragraph retconning a mention of SoH being present for the battle.

Herein lies my problem with it. Not the fact they were sent to aid the wolves, not the fact they're in the prospero systems, literally the fact they've not been significant enough to garner a single mention in any novel from black library.

I also know that they say everything is from a biased point of view, but when no primarchs or legionaries in either legion, custodes force, or sisters of silence hand gestures make a single mention of anything other than Horus' ORDER then I find it a touch silly.

Not even Horus himself has yet alluded to the fact.

[Col.hertford]

Completely disagree with most of thos. Will elaborate later.

Mever called yhe rest of the hh stuff crap.

How about they rewrite battle of Terra.

All legions were there cos IF BA & WS coild not be trusted to hold the walls?

That would enrich the Heresy.

 

Mate, there were represeative of all legions at terra. They are the honour companies. Sorry this doesn't fit with your view of the SWs. Though I don't understand why it's so unpalatable.

 

 

 

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

 

Agreed. I think this is only a good thing. 100/150 marines compared to basically 2 whole legions is hardly watering down the Wolves involvement at all.

A company within the Legions is about 1000 marines, not 100 like it is in the Chapters.

That being said, I still agree with you. 1000 SoH is negligible compared to a Legion of 100k+ Space Wolves.

Everything in the heresy was bigger!

 

Edit: Well, except for the Tyranids of course.

You mean a chapter of course. Check book 1. Chapter nominally 1000 contained 2 battalions of 500, which contained five companies. Obviously there was divergence when the legions reunited with the primachs.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

One company of Sons wouldn't of made any difference, sounds like the messenger boys sent to change Russ' objectives. After Nicea it wouldn't of been hard to convince Russ to go in with blades drawn, after all the Wolves are the only Legion that we know of who had engaged and killed other astartes, they did not see it as anathema like some of the other legions.

 

As to Legio Mortis, so what? The Astartes worked in close concert with the Titan Legions, this was a long standing precedent and if you are going after a Legion homeworld, i'd want a few Titans backing me up.

[Soldier of Dorn]

 

 

 

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

Agreed. I think this is only a good thing. 100/150 marines compared to basically 2 whole legions is hardly watering down the Wolves involvement at all.

A company within the Legions is about 1000 marines, not 100 like it is in the Chapters.

That being said, I still agree with you. 1000 SoH is negligible compared to a Legion of 100k+ Space Wolves.

Everything in the heresy was bigger!

 

Untrue. Betrayal specifically designates "normal" Legion companies as being about a hundred Marines (page 31) and specifically notes that the Sons of Horus' companies had no standard codified strength, giving numbers as low as 36 and as high as 972 (page 70.) So as of yet there's really no way to be certain how many SoH were at Prospero (even if this information makes it through to publication) until Inferno comes out.

 

I, for one, don't mind this change. I can see dantay's point of view, but it doesn't bother me overmuch. Then again, I'm not a Fenryka player nor a 1kSons player, or even a SoH player (yet,) so what do I know?

[Leif Bearclaw]

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

Incorrect. Unless FW are going to retcon themselves with Inferno, the RG were the smallest Legion pre Heresy at 81,000 strong.

 

For the record. It's stuff like this that makes Wolf fans irritable and hacked off.

 

I'm hoping some SoH line captain will be giving Russ orders. That'll make my day.

We already have one of, if not the, biggest hatedoms in the setting. Is it really that much to ask that the Company itself stops feeding this viewpoint?

 

[Col.hertford]

its not necessarily a ret con, The stuff about Legio Mortis and the SoH would have been purged from the history after the HH. This is the approach FW have taken with all the HH books. Indeed, the black books are written in a manner to give the feeling they are heretical texts to the new imperium... That's quite off topic though.

[Balthamal]

Questionable? If you think so. I won't take offense but please, don't call my infos questionable. Even so more if it's from Alan himself.

 

Btw, Prospero is a whole campaign now. Including the raid on a 1k sons allied Mechanicum World.

 

 

 

Since it's been confirmed separately I retract the questionable part. 

 

 

Well frankly I think this is a crap "revelation", but I'll try and stay open minded when the book finally drops.

 

WLK

 

 

More of this please.

 

 

I'm hoping some SoH line captain will be giving Russ orders. That'll make my day.

 

 

Very amusing but I can only see that ending one way and it wouldn't be pretty.

 

 

OK I like the wolves, I do, Prospero Burns is one of my top 5 reads in the series. What I don't like, and never have, is the rabidness of certain sections of the Wolves fanbase. I'm all for enthusiasm but complaining about perceived slights as though it's on par with the revelation that Horus really killed the Emperor and it's Horus entombed on the Golden Throne? Sorry but not for me.

 

Let's do a quick review about what's waiting for the Wolves here: Magnus, his Legion, his fleet, millions of soldiers, a significant portion of his pacted Mechanicum allies, any knights/titans stationed there and all the defenses of Prospero itself - so missile silos, orbital fortresses, automated weapon arrays. Against all of that, what difference are a couple of hundred SoH going to make? Even a few Titans from the Legio Mortis aren't going to be like the big red "I WIN" button. So there were Sisters of Silence? Great, that means that the powers the TS could use to liquefy the Wolves couldn't be used. Why does is that a slight? The Custodes were dispatched by the Emperor to see his will done, and Valdor and Horus got in Russ' ear. It's not like it was the entire order of them. And honestly even if it's a hundred, are they going to kill a hundred thousand enemies? Is that devaluing the prowess of the VI? 

 

I swear people are forgetting here, Horus had one objective and it wasn't to finish the TS, he wanted both the TS and SW to completely annihilate each other. Is it possible that those men he sent we to be on hand to assassinate whichever Primarch walked away from the duel? What if the Titans were from an untrustworthy sect of the Legion Mortis so they were sent to die just like Horus purged his Legion at Istvaan? The only "win" Horus got from Prospero was that at the last minute Magnus decided to fight instead of leaving his head on the block - if he hadn't the Wolves victory would have been considerably more complete.

 

The Wolves' victory wasn't cheapened by Magnus basically leaving Prospero open to attack - as has been mentioned earlier it's a Legion homeworld for God sake. You don't simply plant your flag and claim the earth as your own. ANY instance of being left standing at the end of it all would have been a massive, massive victory for the Wolves. the only cheapening of it is the fact that Horus manipulated them into doing what he was reluctant to do himself but that's hardly groundbreaking. If people are going to complain about the Wolves being plain stupid then you're missing the point of manipulation - you're not supposed to be seen doing it otherwise you're asking/ordering. And at this point what reason would Russ have to not trust Horus? The only ones who mistrusted him sufficiently were deployed to Istvaan III. Gulliman trusted him and lined up 200,000 of his Legion for murder because of it. Sanguinius trusted him and look how that panned out for the IX. Are there Blood Angels/Ultramarine fans screaming the walls down about the ineptitude of their Primarch? 

 

 

 

 

 

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

Incorrect. Unless FW are going to retcon themselves with Inferno, the RG were the smallest Legion pre Heresy at 81,000 strong.

 

For the record. It's stuff like this that makes Wolf fans irritable and hacked off.

 

I'm hoping some SoH line captain will be giving Russ orders. That'll make my day.

We already have one of, if not the, biggest hatedoms in the setting. Is it really that much to ask that the Company itself stops feeding this viewpoint?

 

 

I agree completely that there is a lot of hate for the Wolves out there. What I will say though from personal experience is that is, in the majority, self inflicted. Not so much on these boards but places like BoLs/Warseer are full of the hardcore wolf fanboys telling everyone with ears how good the wolves are blah blah blah to the extent that FW almost have to try and reign them back in to show that isn't the case. In fairness to most of the guys on here, most you don't have that mindset but get tarred with the same brush anyway which is a shame because it isn't the case. But I'd say there's more than enough "opinion" put out there to encourage the backlash

[Sandlemad]

Long-term wolf fan here, loved Prospero Burns, loved Wolf King, ridiculously excited for this. Definitely enrichment, not detraction, and absolutely fitting with FW's approach.

 

Consider Tempest, where a good bit of the book covered the knights of House Vornherr, the Mechanicum of Konor and the Legio Praesagius fighting against the various warp-cults and the Legio Suturova. Brilliant stuff, well-written, very explicitly marked as taking place in theatres of war not covered by Know No Fear. It did not detract in the slightest from the existing narrative of battle between the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers.

The big events we knew from the BL books (the daemons aboard Macragge's Honour, Venatus at Leptius Numinus, Guilimann fighting Kor Phaeron in orbit) were all still there and covered in depth.

 

Consider what we know of Prospero: the depictions in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns leave plenty of room for the same approach, even within Tizca. Prospero Burns in particular sticks to a very limited viewpoint, far from the main action. What's been covered in the BL books will still be included and in great depth. Russ will still wrestle Magnus.

 

The Sons of Horus, the Legio Mortis, the Arkhadine Mechanicum and the Legio Cybernetica are not going to be centre-stage and hysteria about the subject shows an unbecoming lack of awareness of how FW has approached it previously.