There was another Legion ... at Prospero

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Tizca was ONE city, how many major population centres on Earth in 2016? Sure, allot of Prospero was uninhabited due to rather nasty native fauna but to take on the whole planet, a few supporting assets would be very useful. No Primarch would turn down a Titan legion's help and the whole thing about Russ is he's portrayed as very practical. His warriors are quite happy to use xenos weaponry for crying out loud.

 

The Wolves knew what they where walking into, expecting a massive fight just to get into orbit and a serious scrap against the most powerful psykers in the Imperium. They would of welcomed the assistance with open arms.

[DuskRaider]

 

 

This doesn't lessen the abilities of the wolves. It does make the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, come out as a power house killing machine that scared the crap out of Horus.

Incorrect. Unless FW are going to retcon themselves with Inferno, the RG were the smallest Legion pre Heresy at 81,000 strong.

 

For the record. It's stuff like this that makes Wolf fans irritable and hacked off.

I'm hoping some SoH line captain will be giving Russ orders. That'll make my day.

We already have one of, if not the, biggest hatedoms in the setting. Is it really that much to ask that the Company itself stops feeding this viewpoint?

Thousand Sons are listed as having 50,000 Astartes at the time of the Razing of Prospero, while the Wolves have 80,000. They're the two smallest Legions.

[Fire Golem]

Not anymore, after the RG section explicitly states that they were the smallest legion with 80,000 marines after the battle of Gate 42. TS and SW numbers will most likely be bumped up in Inferno.

[Dantay VI]

Hmmm....

 

Russ conned by Horus to destroy T-Sons, instead of just coming for Magnus in order to take him to the Emperor.

 

Russ needing help from Sisters of Silence and Custodes. Which makes sense to neutralise the overwhelming psychic superiority and the Custodes as the Emperors personal envoys.

 

Russ needing the help of a company of SoH and Legio Mortis to take out the T-Sons who inhabit one city on the planet an have ONE warp powered titan.

 

Oh and Magnus blocked everyone from seeing the Wolves coming. So no cavalry charge to save his sons.

 

Russ getting ambushed and his damaged fleet gets mauled by the Alphas.

 

Russ needing DA assistance to save his fleet from the Alpha's and to fix his fleet so he can try to get his legion to Terra for the big fight.

 

Lack of parity when it comes to legion bits... Apart from Russ no visible progress on resin legion bits since the weekender (nice termie banner & transfers, but still trotting out same images of leviathan dread as seen at the weekender).

 

I am sensing a BL/FW theme here.

 

Smells like enriching retcon manure.

 

And I have read & enjoyed the other FW HH books, so I would prefer not to be labelled as someone who doesn't get it "Because other books". 

 

Think its safe to assume that Wolves should just stay in the Wolves forum in the future.

[DuskRaider]

No, I'm saying Alan Bligh was quoted as saying Thousand Sons had 50,000 and Space Wolves had 80,000.

[Xenith]

Are some people really worried that a couple of hundred Sons of Horus will overshadow 80,000 Space Wolves? Is your Wolf-Ego really that fragile?

 

Do you actually think that those SoH will outfight you?

 

Pfft. Get real. Horus had to cripple two of the most loyal/obedient legions before the main event.

 

Remember this every time that you see FW do something and take personal offence that the Wolves are getting pooped on - they were too powerful, and had to be removed from the equation.

[GhostMalone]

That's not the case buddy you know we understand where your coming from, there's nothing wrong with the velka fenryka and getting more clarity on the situation. Yes your annoyed and you have some valid reasons to be, but what about the other legions that don't have a book on the verge of release and a primarch about to drop and most likely a legion specific dred and unique units by the end of the year?

 

To feel shafted is natural but that's not the case, I think we need to stop escalating this thread until we get more concrete facts rather than what could be an off the cuff comment, and really who cares Prospero burned Horus won the wolves were damaged and then they were unfortunately found by the hydra.... yes its unfair but who was sending watch packs every which way and left Terra to go chasing after ghosts? At the end of the day just use what you like and forget what you don't.

 

Come on let's stop the fractricide and get back to the Brotherhood we know we all share

 

Edit: AND SERIOUSLY STOP THE CRAP WITH PROVOKING WOLF FANS! If your not going to be proactive or constructive leave it be as it will only go one way and we don't need our reputation ruined with more thread closures

[Runefyre]

Are some people really worried that a couple of hundred Sons of Horus will overshadow 80,000 Space Wolves? Is your Wolf-Ego really that fragile?

 

Do you actually think that those SoH will outfight you?

 

Pfft. Get real. Horus had to cripple two of the most loyal/obedient legions before the main event.

 

Remember this every time that you see FW do something and take personal offence that the Wolves are getting pooped on - they were too powerful, and had to be removed from the equation.

Most of the novels don't exactly give the impression that the SW's are anything more than average. And that's were all this bitterness stems from imo.

 

But I do think we should give this conversation a rest until we can read the book for ourselves.

 

Let's hope it's satisfactory for both Vlka Fenryka fans and Thousand Sons fans alike!

[Dantay VI]

Yep, lets wait to see what happens in book 9.

[Sandlemad]

Russ needing the help of a company of SoH and Legio Mortis to take out the T-Sons who inhabit one city on the planet an have ONE warp powered titan.

 

Legion homeworlds are a daunting prospect by definition; no one had ever tried taking one out (missing legions aside). Prospero was supported by a closely allied forge world with its own titan legion, as well as a greater domain of systems and muster worlds, the ones the Death Guard were razing in Daemonology. Inferno will cover the SW actions against these. Others have already covered the probable role that the SoH will have: advisors and attaches.

 

EDIT: Meant to add, neither Russ nor Horus had any inkling that Magnus would be crippled by guilt and intentionally blinding his own forces. They prepared for a much bloodier action.

 

Lack of parity when it comes to legion bits... Apart from Russ no visible progress on resin legion bits since the weekender (nice termie banner & transfers, but still trotting out same images of leviathan dread as seen at the weekender).

 

This is a seriously petty complaint, it's been heard a hundred times before and it's one that contributes to bad feeling towards the vocal wolf fanbase. Everyone has had to wait. WS players will be waiting longer. SW and TS players will receive more tailored and unique lists then all the other legions and these will be accompanied by unique bits and units.

[Fire Golem]

People who have rules are still waiting for specific units and characters, other legions don't have their full legion rules yet, etc. The Wolves aren't even going to be waiting as long as the White Scars, Blood Angels and Dark Angels for their full legion rules. Lots of people are having to wait, not just the Wolves.

[norngahl]

The SoH will be a Praetor and maybe some other Captains with a bodyguard to act as advisors. Unfortunately someone HAS to tell them how do do the job.

[Xenith]

 

Most of the novels don't exactly give the impression that the SW's are anything more than average. And that's were all this bitterness stems from imo.

 

The thing is, Space Wolves are average. From what we know, in terms of size, worlds brought to compliance, etc. Any metric that the crusade was measured by, sees the Wolves being a non-top performer. Even the Word Bearers got more compliances once they set their minds to it.

 

I guess for too long, the Wolves have had this mythos as 'The Executioners', and people let it get to their heads.

 

A few SoH are nothing. The Sisters of Silence won Prospero for the Wolves. if anything, rage against them.

[helterskelter]

Surely then the 1ksons should just be renegades and it be retconned that whatever is left of them not only pursue the wolves but also the sons of Horus? Because if they're present, then that's another factor of blame for hate. So would actually neither side with the imperium nor Horus?

[Marshal Loss]

It actually adds a lot of depth to their choice in my opinion. They have been betrayed by everybody and everything they held dear due to their own foolishness - and now have no choice but to either accept they have no part in the galaxy or join one of the two sides that stabbed them in the back. And with the SoH there, even if it was a 0.1% contribution, you can bet every surviving 1K son knew that they were damned no matter who they joined. It wasn't just Horus manipulating things behind the scenes, his all-seeing eye saw their destruction first hand.

 

Prior to this, we all know that Horus manipulated Russ...but now all of the Thousand Sons, even the lowliest battle brother, will know that Horus played a direct role in their fate.

 

Grimdark, AB is the man

[Sandlemad]

That right there is a pretty good seed for a Blackshield force. A gang of off-Prospero TS who can't bring themselves to throw in their lot with Horus for his betrayal but have no intention of assisting an imperium that turned on them.

[Black Cohort]

Modern military doctrine says you need 3:1 odds in your favour to have good odds during an attack. The wolves might have had 2:1 in their favour vs TS in terms of marines, but the TS had all sorts of other support as well. The wolves getting incredibly minor support from the SoH is not a big deal and still leaves them well below recommended odds.

 

As others have said at Isstvan the Imperium sent 7 legions to take out 4 legions that had lost a significant percent of their marines during their loyalist purge. Is it an insult to the Iron hands, Salamanders or another of the other legions there that they needed to bring 7 legions to destroy 4 weakened ones?

[helterskelter]

There are a whole 2 heresy novels about it. Not one mention of a sons of Horus contigent on prospero.

 

The istvaan and razing of prospero fluff have been about a long old time.

Remember how many upset iron hands fans there were when GW did what they did to the 40k version?

Messing with something that didn't need it isn't necessary

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Apples to oranges my friend.

 

One consisted of the WARMASTER, who had 4 Legions of unknown strength (as I don't think the purges were pi locally known)

 

The WARMASTER, the guy the Emperor said can cover for him.

[Sandlemad]

There are a whole 2 heresy novels about it. Not one mention of a sons of Horus contigent on prospero.

 

The istvaan and razing of prospero fluff have been about a long old time.

Remember how many upset iron hands fans there were when GW did what they did to the 40k version?

Messing with something that didn't need it isn't necessary

 

Both of which are low on detail. In A Thousand Sons the battle is seen at a very high level from Ahriman and a handful of other TS officers. We only get a few glimpses of what went on, there was no mention of any named SW characters besides Russ and Othere Wyrdmake. Prospero Burns is from the even more limited viewpoint of a skald. It doesn't even mention the presence of the Custodes.

 

Know No Fear didn't mention the Nine Paragons of Ithraca or the Nemesis chapter of UM but the depiction of the battle of Calth in Tempest was richer and more interesting for it.

[Dantay VI]

Too apathetic to care now.

 

Will ignore.

 

No point dragging this in circles.

 

Because it WILL devolve.

 

Interesting that almost all those who find this enriching, neither collect or play Space Wolves.

 

Almost all those who do not do.

[Sandlemad]

Interesting that almost all those who find this enriching, neither collect or play Space Wolves.

 

Almost all those who do not do.

 

I have collected 13th company space wolves since the EoT campaign. I have the tentative beginnings of a HH SW force. I have read just about everything BL and FW have published on the chapter/legion at one time or another. While I want to see how this new development pans out, I think it sounds enriching and interesting.

 

It astounds me that anyone could read the thoughtful depictions of the wolves (and that thoughtfulness is what characterises these depictions, they are obviously carefully considered, with one eye on the wider fandom conservation about the wolves' role in the heresy) in Wolf King or other recent BL work, as well as the few FW appearances, and say 'these writers don't care about space wolves. They want to make them seem stupid.'

 

EDIT: I do not object to folks being worried or disliking changes, I object to this 'circling the wagons' persecution complex that is sometimes exhibited when the SW are depicted as anything other than perfect. It annihilates nuance.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Apples to oranges my friend.

 

One consisted of the WARMASTER, who had 4 Legions of unknown strength (as I don't think the purges were pi locally known)

 

The WARMASTER, the guy the Emperor said can cover for him.

 

There were other Primarchs in the running for the position of Warmaster - Horus was an incredible general and politician, and certainly the best Prmarch for the role, but he wasn't a deity who justified an additional three Legions in order to take him out. It's incredibly unlikely that Horus's tactical genius would have been sufficient to mitigate the numerical advantage of the 'Loyalists'. Plus the Loyalist fleet wasn't lead by an idiot - 40 years into the great crusade (with approx. 10 Primarchs discovered) there were three main fleets of the Great Crusade - one lead by The Emperor, one lead by Horus and the third lead by Ferrus Manus - Dorn chose Ferrus to lead over the other 6 Legions' Primarchs because he thought he was the best equipped to counter Horus.

 

Claiming Horus was the only reason that the Loyalists sent 7 Legions to take out 4 (and they did know about the losses the WE, DG, EC & SoH had suffered because Garro was the one who had revealed to them Horus' treachery) seems pretty off to me.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Too apathetic to care now.

 

Will ignore.

 

No point dragging this in circles.

 

Because it WILL devolve.

 

Interesting that almost all those who find this enriching, neither collect or play Space Wolves.

 

Almost all those who do not do.

 

Y'all know what happened to the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands right?

 

Claims of your Legion being "bullied" by Forgeworld are quite amusing though. I don't go around being all angry that my favourite Legion got butchered, is constantly thrown to Nick Kyme and are generally considered to be nurse-maids of 30k. Legions get pooped on, it comes with the setting. The quicker you accept that, the more amicable the hobby becomes.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

Apples to oranges my friend.

 

One consisted of the WARMASTER, who had 4 Legions of unknown strength (as I don't think the purges were pi locally known)

 

The WARMASTER, the guy the Emperor said can cover for him.

There were other Primarchs in the running for the position of Warmaster - Horus was an incredible general and politician, and certainly the best Prmarch for the role, but he wasn't a deity who justified an additional three Legions in order to take him out. It's incredibly unlikely that Horus's tactical genius would have been sufficient to mitigate the numerical advantage of the 'Loyalists'. Plus the Loyalist fleet wasn't lead by an idiot - 40 years into the great crusade (with approx. 10 Primarchs discovered) there were three main fleets of the Great Crusade - one lead by The Emperor, one lead by Horus and the third lead by Ferrus Manus - Dorn chose Ferrus to lead over the other 6 Legions' Primarchs because he thought he was the best equipped to counter Horus.

 

Claiming Horus was the only reason that the Loyalists sent 7 Legions to take out 4 (and they did know about the losses the WE, DG, EC & SoH had suffered because Garro was the one who had revealed to them Horus' treachery) seems pretty off to me.

Horus combined with 3 other Primarchs.

 

Oh forget it. Dantay has it right.

 

Peace out folks.