Someone convince me to main Dark Angels

[frostbite]

Why do they consider it their own sin? Those that remained loyal are redeemed by the simple fact that they remained loyal. Loyalty is its own reward as the Lion said. I get why you would hunt down the Fallen. But I feel like they are hunting them for the wrong reason. They should be hunting them to eliminate Chaos, not because they could throw a shadow on their reputation. First, who is the entire Imperium would believe a traitor. Second, trying to save your own reputation at the cost of your allies is beyond egocentric. It is downright pathetic. The Emperor had greater things in mind with the Astartes. To use this gift to further your own needs should be considered a Heresy in and of it self. I can get behind the idea of cleaning up your own mess. They repent for their past failing (though I would argue that those who remained loyal did not do anything wrong and have no reason to repent; but they take the responsibility because there wasn't anyone else who could and that is fine) and that is commendable, but not when it happens at the cost of your primary mission given by the Emperor himself.

What you say about the Unforgiven cleaning up their own mess and having done nothing wrong is a matter of interpretation. Indeed what you describe is exactly the line the Angels of Absolution take; they consider themselves redeemed by the actions of the loyalists at Caliban, but continue to hunt the Fallen because it is their mess to clean up.

 

The DAs hunt the Fallen because they are traitors. That is the main reason. The fact that they are DA traitors and could potentially ruin the chapter if their existence was revealed merely adds to the zeal with which the DAs hunt them. As for hunting them at the expense of their own allies, it comes down to pragmatism. The DAs fear that if the existence of the Fallen were to become known, it would taint them, their successors and all they have accomplished in the last 10,000 years. To the DAs, the risk of all that being undone outweighs all else. So they do not hunt the Fallen to save their own reputation, they do it because they believe it is in the Imperium's best interests to do so. The ends justify the means, after all.

[Guest]

I doubt anything can convince you.

 

But from one Legion to another you should know that it only takes one thing to define you....

[Frater Cornelius]

@ frostbite - Okay, I'll buy that. It is their mess to clean up after all. Good explanation

@ Brother Arkley - Not sure what you are getting at, bud.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Why do they consider it their own sin? Those that remained loyal are redeemed by the simple fact that they remained loyal. Loyalty is its own reward as the Lion said. I get why you would hunt down the Fallen. But I feel like they are hunting them for the wrong reason. They should be hunting them to eliminate Chaos, not because they could throw a shadow on their reputation. First, who is the entire Imperium would believe a traitor. Second, trying to save your own reputation at the cost of your allies is beyond egocentric. It is downright pathetic. The Emperor had greater things in mind with the Astartes. To use this gift to further your own needs should be considered a Heresy in and of it self. I can get behind the idea of cleaning up your own mess. They repent for their past failing (though I would argue that those who remained loyal did not do anything wrong and have no reason to repent; but they take the responsibility because there wasn't anyone else who could and that is fine) and that is commendable, but not when it happens at the cost of your primary mission given by the Emperor himself.

Eh? Are we reading about the same Imperium? The Imperium has condemned entire Marine Chapters over doctrinal disagreements and their reverance of the Emperor (Steel Cobras), so there's potentially far more than mere reputation at stake. And that's ignoring how reputation, and the honour that goes with it, it at the very core of what it means to be Astartes. Imperial Fists, Wolves. Executioners, DAs, the fluff's full of examples of Marines making desicsion that aren't exactly the most logically sensible, pure because of honour and reputation.

 

Secondly, imagine what went through the minds of the first Unforgiven. They think the war's won, Horus is defeated. Then they lose everything, Caliban, Primarch. the works, all through the treachery of their own, worse, at the hand of their Primarch's number 2. Of course they wanted to keep that quiet, Scouring era Imperium isn't exactly a forgiving place, and without a Primarch to argue their corner, how do they know Gulliman won't order them purged, just to be on the safe side? They've just been betrayed by those they trusted most, why rely on the mercy of an outsider? So they hush it up. Then the culture of secrecy becomes essentially self perpetuating. Even if they wanted to come clean, how's the Imperium going to react? With the exact censure and humiliation that the DAs fear (even if they're not ordered to penitent crusade themselves to death). So they have to keep hunting, keep their secret, it's not a difficult or all that illogical decision once you get into their headspace.

 

And that's coming from someone who isn't really a DA fan.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Leif - Putting it into perspective of the Scouring and with no Primarch to argue in their favour is actually something I never considered. Good point.

[twopounder]

If you need someone to convince you to play an army, then you shouldn't play it. Army choice is deeply personal and should resonate with you. There are people on these boards that have played DA for over a decade (myself included). If you don't gravitate towards it naturally, you'll end up repainting as another chapter later on.

[ronin_cse]

If you need someone to convince you to play an army, then you shouldn't play it. Army choice is deeply personal and should resonate with you. There are people on these boards that have played DA for over a decade (myself included). If you don't gravitate towards it naturally, you'll end up repainting as another chapter later on.

 

I'll take a guess and say you probably didn't read the rest of the thread :p

[Bryan Blaire]

ronin, welcome back to the Rock, brother. There are simply a few bits of paperwork to fill out in Cell 42, the Chaplain Lucifer will see to your reintegration into the Legi---Chapter. ;)

 

Immersturm, you are right: you just don't get the Dark Angels. ;) Fairly certain folks here tried to explain it to you in the past, you always have the same arguments. Nothing has changed in the fluff, nothing has changed in the fluff, and nothing has changed in your understanding.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, I am gaining new perspective every time. My view changed each time this topic has been brought and I moved from the point of dislike to respecting them and their point of view, even though it may not coincide with my own. Do not assume that people can not learn or expand their point of view ;)

[Jacques Corbin]

I agree, y'all's fluff is fantastic. The Lion was a great Primarch. Even before the Emperor found him, it was the Lion's genetic descendants the Emperor chose to be the very first of his Space Marine Legions. It had to just gnaw at Horus, being discovered first, but being kept at the Emperor's side, because the First Legion (without a Primarch) made it unnecessary to have a Primarch-led Legion. I would not be at all surprised if Horus had overheard the Emperor musing about how eager He was to find the Father of the First Legion. I mean, really, He had a warrior demigod at his side, fully capable of leading his own legion into battle, but the Emperor held him back, because the First Legion was getting :cuss done.

 

There is also the modelling aspect. I am a son of Corax. The XIXth Legion, the next to last legion founded. We are the Jump Pack Ninjas of the Imperium. I go round & round about the banners, bling, and heraldry, because it isn't stealthy. Now First Legion, on the other hand, have the longest history, and it would take Ezekiel from one Sanguinala to the next to list all the legion's accolades & honors. I expect to see banners and bling on a Dark Angels force. They were earning them before any other legion was founded, even before the Emperor was reunited with the Lion. Then, when the Lion was found, and given his sons to command, he took the Emperor's choice legion of the 20 gene-seed types, the legion that exceeded the Emperor's lofty expectations, and the Lion made them better.

 

Also, there is this guy. The gunslinging, hide-and-seek Champion of the galaxY for millenia. He is quite Possibly Heading for Holy Terra, to lay thE Lion's bRoken blade and the feet of the Emperor. Nobody mentioned that guy...

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, I am gaining new perspective every time. My view changed each time this topic has been brought and I moved from the point of dislike to respecting them and their point of view, even though it may not coincide with my own. Do not assume that people can not learn or expand their point of view ;)

You have to prove that, man, because your statements don't really seem to indicate it. ;)

 

Actions speak louder than words.

 

Ronin will be putting word to deed, and I can't wait to see the results. For the Unforgiven! :D

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, you will have to take my word for it, because I do not show particular interest in playing DA.

[twopounder]

If you need someone to convince you to play an army, then you shouldn't play it. Army choice is deeply personal and should resonate with you. There are people on these boards that have played DA for over a decade (myself included). If you don't gravitate towards it naturally, you'll end up repainting as another chapter later on.

I'll take a guess and say you probably didn't read the rest of the thread

To be fair, I skimmed :P

[Lord Blackwood]

Well, you will have to take my word for it, because I do not show particular interest in playing DA.

I have been shanghaied into a discussion about bikes. Oh well, nothing to be done. The only issue is, I have no bloody clue what I am doing. Most of my arguments and lists are based on theory and not so much on practical experience, since I have not played RW that extensively and neither do I face it. I am taking a break and have no played in two months, so that isn't helping either.

Allow me to give you the required starting info:

Hidden Content

RWSF

Librarian - ML2, Bike, Auspex, Axe

RW Command (5) - Apothecary, RW Banner

5 Bikes - 2 Grav, MB

5 Bikes - 2 Grav, MB

Trike - MM

Trike - MM

RWSS

Dark Shroud - AsC

3 Land Speeders - HB/AsC

Iron Hands Allies

Chapter Master - Artificer Armour, Shield Eternal, Bike, Thunder Hammer

5 Scouts - MB, LSS

1450

This is where I am stuck.

For one I am not entirely conviced that Grav is the most effective. That is 4 hits per bike unit and around 1 wound against a Wraith Knight. Everything else can get killed by Plasma Talons and Meltas.

Also, I have no idea how to properly support a RW Bike list except with more Bikes. When Bikes were Troops, there was this amazing option of adding Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor. Now that is much harder because it requires Troops.

Speaking of Troops, could Tacs with Razorbacks work? Or is the answer just to stick in more Bikes? Because that sounds awefully one-dimensional and boring. I do not mind converting it into a CAD.

Also, is that Chapter Master necessary? I am trying to account for all the Ignore Cover shenanigans going around. Between Tau, D-Flamers, Tigurius and that new White Scars relic I wonder how much that Ravenwing Jink is to be relied on these days.

Anyway, can anyone unstick me and point me in the right direction?

Cheers

I decided to give DA another go next to my GK and the conversion work has resumed. However, I hit a snag. The regular RW Biker. I am aiming to make a knight-themed army. I got the Black Knights on Demigryphs, I will use a kitbash of GW bits and Dreamforge Eisenkern Troopers for my Marines, TDA will be a mix between GK TDA, DA TDA and Stormcast Eternals.

But now I am stuck. Regular RW bikers are not special enough to be mounted on Demigryphs as well. However, horses are really stretching it. It is pretty hard to let go of my disbelief as it is. But something mechanical would not really fit the theme.

If anyone has an idea of how to make horse-bikers believable or has an alternative idea, I would appreciate your input.

Cheers

@ Lucifer - To each his own In fact, I would be extremely grateful if someone could explain to me how to run non-Lion's Blade Tacs in a list and be effective. All I could think of is either 10 naked dudes in a Pod or 5 with Plasma/CP in Razorback, neither of which really do much, especially next to heavy hitters like CS in Pod, RWCS and RWSS.

Ravenwing Support Squadron is definitely a very solid Formation. Good fire support and deep strike protection. Given the cover stacking, you also do not need to jink very often.

Also pretty solid Formation is the Hammer of Caliban. Unless you are facing D or Haywire spam this one will wreck the opponent. AV13 tanks with an AV14 tank. A Vindicator Squadron comes to mind

As for Greenwing. I really want to like them. But they do not bring anything relevant to the table for their cost. The weakest link in the army. If it wasn't so pivotal, it wouldn't be so bad.

They become better in the Lion's Blade, but playin horde Marines isn't my thing

I like Land Raiders. I like Termiantors. I like Ezekiel. Put them all together and you have a solid center-piece unit. However, what kind of Terminators?

DWK offer T5 to the unit and attacks at I4 with WS5. The DWCS only has T4 and potentially less Stormshields in the unit, but has the Banner and FnP as well as S8 AP2.

T5 vs T4 with FnP is an interesting topic. Against S4, both are roughly the same. Against anything less than S4, T5 wins over. Against S5-S7, T4 + FnP wins. Against T8 and higher, both are equal. Most guns are either S4 or higher, mostly S6 and S7. T4 with FnP wins. Then there are guns that ignore toughness, like Warp Spiders and Grav, where T4 and FnP wins.

On the offense, each guy in the CS gets 5 attacks on the charge (2 base, 1 from Ezekiel, 1 from the Banner and 1 from the Charge Bonus), but there is one less guy hitting due to having the Apothecary. The DWK do not have a banner, but one more guy hitting and WS5. DWK are definitely better at slicing infantry, but when you are faced with 2+ saves and tougher customers, the CS wins.

In terms of cost, 5 DWK cost 235pts. A CS with Apothecary, Banner, 1 Chainfist and 3 Stormhammers cost 260pts. The CS also has the option of taking a Champion, with means one less 3++, but AP2 on I4 with WS5. The Chainfist guy can also take an Assault Cannon to split fire at another target. This increases the cost 275pts.

Do you think the increased cost and slower attacks are worth the staying power and harder hits? Or are DWK the better choice when driving in the Ezekiel pimp mobile?

I have done 5 games with almost the same DA list and played a game against a DA tournament player, who also used two units of RWBK with a Dark Shroud. Every single game yielded the same result. The RWBK do not perform as well as they should. When they do not jink against small arms fire, you will get whittled down. If you jink, you lose your firepower and increase your chances of overheating due to making more re-rolls. When relying on their melee, you will find that Rending is very unreliable and WS4 against WS4+ means a lot of lost hits. The Stasis Grenade would help, if they would not be jinking all the time.

Overall, it always seems like they run out of steam the longer a game goes on. This is begging the question, are naked RWBK really worth it? I am considering a tanky character up front to eat some shots and keep their effectiveness. An Int. Chap. on bike with MoR for re-rolls and possibly an Iron Hand Chapter Master for the 4+ FnP on top of 2+/3++ EW. However, in a game of two sources, I would need to choose between Scouts + LSS and CM (350-380pts) or an Imperial Knight (370-415pts) and I feel the IK is a bit stronger.

In any way, I think another approach needs to happen. Naked RWBK have not only failed to live up to my expectations, they have disappointed me. However, due to the lack of a tanky character and alternative ways of running them, I am not sure how to approach Green + Black or Tri-wing now.

I suppose running them in the RWSF is a remedy, but there are a lot of ways of eating cover and if they get too close, you can bind them in melee and simply kill them or at least make some casualties to reduce their effectiveness.

YMMV, obviously, but I feel that that setup requires some tweaks. Thoughts?

[Bryan Blaire]

:lol: at Bladewolf

[Chaplain Raeven]

Seems like we have a private investigator on the boards.