Dark Angels - Thoughts for a new player...

[Cassian the Confessor]

Greetings Brothers of the Inner Circle,

 

I'm currently in the early stages of planning a Dark Angels force after my recent return to the hobby and I'm looking for advice on what to do now!

 

• Overall strengths and weaknesses of the codex
• What I should include in a list, units/items and why?
• What models should I buy now and why, do they translate to higher point levels etc?
• Should I go formations such as Lions Blade or CAD?

 

I'm looking to start with a small playable force say 1000pts and then scale up to 1850pts...

 

I'd like a mix of all the different wings in the force; though not necessarily at all points levels, but I'd like balanced flavourful unit ideas to combine into a list; I'm not necessarily going to be playing in ultra competitive tournament environment but I'd like to be able to walk away from this thread and go 'yeah I've got a good idea of what I need and why'...

 

For your information I'm not asking you to write me a 'net list' here - just throw some ideas around on what you think is effective and should be included. The bullet points above are only prompts; don't feel you need stick to that religiously. This is a forum for discussion and I hope if we get enough contribution this thread could be useful for other new DA players coming forward as well as myself.

 

I look forward to reading your contributions.

 

Cassian the Confessor

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The short and easy answer to your question would be... search the forum for "why DA topics" or "convince me to play DA topics"... we sure got our fair share of those! ;)

 

The long answer would be:

DA strengths mostly are the synergy between units of RW and DW and the defensive power due to overwatch bonuses. The funny part is that it's also one of the great weaknesses! The Codex can be caught in a situation that against a more defensive army/style of play , it loses it's advantage. Or that the balance from DW and RW is not achieved and both parts become just a points sink instead.

 

What would you include in a list totally depends on what you want from the Codex. I could say "Black Knights" because they are the strongest unit int he Codex, but if you play Deathwing, they don't make sense every single time.

So you must know what you are looking for and then design your army with a goal in mind. Later on you will have collected enough units to do several styles of army, then your headaches will be smaller, but the worse part is... where to begin. Do you want speed? do you want firepower?, do you want a reactive army or a proactive one?  Your first units in the lists will be a reflex of the path you chose... and that we can't //shouldn't do it for you because it might not be your style.

 

For me I prefer Lion's Blade vs CAD. CAD can have flexibility, but the Lion's blade will have a bit of each, awesome sinergy between units and still enough room to put some auxiliary units. If you are more competitive oriented, the Lion's blade will be what you want to achieve the better results, easier. If you want just fun and don't mind the extra "learning" curve then the CAD can be more flexible.

 

I'm a really big fan of RW, but speed comes at a price, so model count is low and mistakes are paid dearly. Not a beginner's army unless you don't mind taking a few punches while learning to master it, same goes for DW... thricefold. Slower, outnumber and outgunned, a DW army is an uphill battle, but a certificate that you will improve your gaming skills once you start winning regularly. You can also go for RW and DW, but the key is balance and difficult to achieve... here, balance actually is not having 50%... but more closer to the extremes depending on skill and playing style.

The most difficult to dominate is one that has Green, black and bone. Difficult to achieve balance  and making it work...

 

Take a look at the army list forum and see what tickles your fancy.

 

 

AS for staple units to  buy.. many people starts with a couple of Dark Vengeance sets. You'll get cheap termies and bikes that will probably be present on many of your armies.

[JeffJedi]

One cool idea with the Dark Vengeance sets is you can make a biker Librarian very easily.

[PhilB]

Hit the nail on the head Chaplain Lucifier.

 

2 Dark Vengeance sets (easily and cheaply sources from eBay) is a great place to start. Add a few Rhinos or Razorbacks (2 kits smartly modelled can be used as either vehicle) and you're sitting around 1,500 points with some fruit on your models.

Playing games with these models will give you exposure and experience in all 3 wings and help you decide what you like to expand on going forward.

Some ideas to progress forward from here could be a Devastator Squad and Assault Squad, turning your greenwing into a Demi Company.

You could also pick up a land speeder or two and make 1-2 of the Ravenwing Attack Squadrons.

Add a character in terminator armour and with all of the above purchases you can move away from the CAD and field a Demi-Co with a Ravenwing Attack Squadron & Deathwing Redemption Force. This will build on your idea of wanting to run a combination of all three wings in your army.

From here the skies the limit, you could flesh out the Demi-Co with another full tact squad &/or get more transports, vets, dreadnoughts. Maybe add a ven. dread in a pod to the DWRF or pickup more 'speeders and a Dark Shroud kit and try out the awesome Ravenwing Support Squadron.

[Solrac]

If you are starting off with a CAD but notice you are taking units that you can make up one or more formations, go with the formations. The cost is the same but you usually end up with some extra rules that will help you.

 

I agree with Lucifer that the best unit in our Codex is the Black Knights/Ravenwing Command Squad.

 

I have found the Lion's Blade with a single Demi and a Ravenwing Attack Squadron (with Multi-melta Attack Bikes) to be a great combo and a good place to start as you can fit it into lower points brackets, still have plenty of board control and the full ballistic skill overwatch will save your bacon.

[SnakeChisler]

My standard club list is a demi + auxiliary + rw SF (mostly command squad & librarian)

 

Not too RW heavy and not too spammy, you can boost & sub units as and when, the demi is always in transports though for more obj-sec

 

Modeling recently has been about filling in the blanks to field various combo's from the formations, my latest efforts where on getting a command squad together with magnets for some special weapon fun as veterans.

Having the formations as a goal is a real incentive to paint & complete.

[Frater Cornelius]

The Ravenwing Support Squadron is probably the single best Formation in the book and is amongst the best Formations in the entire game. You might want to look into it.

[Berzul]

Just adding to the discussion, and on the topic of balance and formations.

 

The Lions Blade can look tricky in terms of points. Having one at 1000 seems impractical. But, it is def. worth managing the cost, and there ARE ways to make it work. As it scales to 1850 it will perform even better.

 

For formations, consider what playstyle you might like best, and then see what adds up better.

 

Maybe a Deathwing Strikeforce with a couple of Ravenwing Attack Squadrons can be a deadly combination. The 12 inch deepstrike bubbles are awesome. Or maybe a Demi Company along with a Ravenwing Support Squadron, to get an awesome gun line. Add an aegis defense and you'll be on 2+ cover most of the match, creating a serious deathzone.

 

Now, personally, in my limited experience, people tend to see us Unforgiven almost as the Empire's version of the Tau. Reluctant to go into close range, and focusing on your awesome overwatching skills and ranged firepower. But the truth is that we can take the fight to our opponents perfectly well. So don't feel like you are stuck on a specific form of play. There are many ways to go about it.

 

Even though there is a certain form of making a list that plays to our biggest strengths, ypu can have fun with this codex any way you like.

[SnakeChisler]

My demi is 750 with decent enough upgrades

 

If you want to flesh it out with veterans or a Dread then the cost goes up of course I can get my club list down to 1500 & that includes a Chaplain on a bike from the demi who hooks up with the Raven stuff but normally will play 1750.

 

If you fancy subbing in Deathwing you've enough room

 

Anyways this is my rough split at 1500 the extra at 1750 is generally spent on stuff like Planes more bikes etc

Demi 750

Support squad 300

Ravenwing 450

[ronin_cse]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I have similar questions since I'm just getting into DA and don't want to clutter up the board by posting a duplicate thread ;)

 

Ok so my questions:

 

Is the Hammer of Caliban any good? I was considering using it as a way to get some tanks into a Lion's Blade detachment but since it's one squadron it feels like either the LR or the 3 tanks will be wasted as their ideal targets seem different unless one uses 3 las preds, but in that case it seems like massive overkill. Also seems like it would be a waste of the LR in general as in the formation you want to keep it in the back ranks, but generally the major strength of a LR is it being an assault vehicle.

 

There isn't actually a way to take Deathwing in a LR outside of a CAD correct?

 

Is there a best load out for Deathwing terminators? What about the Deathwing command squad?

 

Why do people say Blackknights are the best unit in the codex?

 

Thanks!

[FlamingDeth]

The Hammer is situational and you have to build your list around it. As part of a Lion's Blade I've had success with it running a Crusader and three vindicators. First turn you get the techmarine out and sit him with a squad of Las devastators behind an aegis, and he confers monster/tank hunter to the squad while using his BS 5 to man an Icarus lascannon. The LR then advances with the vindicators to get either a vet squad or packless assault squad with a chaplain to the front lines, depending on what you have points for. That's basically the only build that it works for that I've seen.

[o8oo Anarch]

I'll take a pop at your questions

 

Hammer of Caliban- (I will begin by saying I've not used it yet as I'm trying to get enough tanks together) It's a lot of points, so I see it as for use in big games where 3x pred + LR isn't such over kill vs super heavies you'll meet in those bigger games.  I think dropping it with whirlwinds is a bit of a waste, I intend to use 3x vindicators + probably Godhammer LR up front to take hits as they gotta get into 24" to fire so will likely be eating shots, also adding the vindi squad apo blast to the HoCs tank hunter for epic killyness.  The transport capacity of the LR will be used up by the techmarine and servitors to keep the LR in the fight.

 

DW LR CAD- Correct to best of my knowledge.

 

DW Terminator Load out- 'Best' is situational.  Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield or 2 up front, , some dudes with storm bolters, Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile Launcher in the back and a chainfist thrown in there somewhere for good measure.  As for cmd squad I like Champion, apothecary, 3x TH&SS, CML, DW company banner.

 

Black Knights- Fast, ignore difficult terrain, Toughness 5, 3+ Armour save, rerollable 3+ jink save (2+ near the dark shroud), twin-linked plasmaguns across the board, Strength 5+rending melee, hit and run.

[ronin_cse]

I'll take a pop at your questions

 

Hammer of Caliban- (I will begin by saying I've not used it yet as I'm trying to get enough tanks together) It's a lot of points, so I see it as for use in big games where 3x pred + LR isn't such over kill vs super heavies you'll meet in those bigger games.  I think dropping it with whirlwinds is a bit of a waste, I intend to use 3x vindicators + probably Godhammer LR up front to take hits as they gotta get into 24" to fire so will likely be eating shots, also adding the vindi squad apo blast to the HoCs tank hunter for epic killyness.  The transport capacity of the LR will be used up by the techmarine and servitors to keep the LR in the fight.

 

DW LR CAD- Correct to best of my knowledge.

 

DW Terminator Load out- 'Best' is situational.  Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield or 2 up front, , some dudes with storm bolters, Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile Launcher in the back and a chainfist thrown in there somewhere for good measure.  As for cmd squad I like Champion, apothecary, 3x TH&SS, CML, DW company banner.

 

Black Knights- Fast, ignore difficult terrain, Toughness 5, 3+ Armour save, rerollable 3+ jink save (2+ near the dark shroud), twin-linked plasmaguns across the board, Strength 5+rending melee, hit and run.

 

Ya know I totally glazed over the benefit of being in a squadron while just focusing on the negative, I totally forgot that the LR can tank for the other vehicles, this combined with the tech marine being able to repair it seems pretty strong. Having the 3 vindicators that ignore cover and have tank/monster hunter just adds to it along with PotMS, I will have to reconsider this now. Also if you just take the techmarine without the servitors you could load it up with something else as well.

 

Thanks for the rest of the replies, black knights do sound very strong and that was kind of what I was thinking for outfitting DW, why no plasma cannons though?

 

Edit: also I was thinking the godhammer LR just because I felt it worked the best with the others, but really the crusader would probably be better as the heavy bolters probably mesh with vindicators better.

[SnakeChisler]

If you want Dakka like that take an Imperial Knight

 

HOC has too big a footprint needs the raider in the front and for vindicates your going to get one good shot at best, side 11 is going too fragile, there's too much stuff that has the maneuverability firepower & range our own speeder formation with typhoon for example even the HB's will glance them

[ronin_cse]

If you want Dakka like that take an Imperial Knight

 

HOC has too big a footprint needs the raider in the front and for vindicates your going to get one good shot at best, side 11 is going too fragile, there's too much stuff that has the maneuverability firepower & range our own speeder formation with typhoon for example even the HB's will glance them

 

Well one shot is all you need if you do the combined shot ;), plus vehicles in a squadron can fire through each other so putting the LR in front won't hinder them. Also you could stick a librarian in there and try for warp metal armor to give the LR armor 15.

[twopounder]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I have similar questions since I'm just getting into DA and don't want to clutter up the board by posting a duplicate thread

Ok so my questions:

Is the Hammer of Caliban any good? I was considering using it as a way to get some tanks into a Lion's Blade detachment but since it's one squadron it feels like either the LR or the 3 tanks will be wasted as their ideal targets seem different unless one uses 3 las preds, but in that case it seems like massive overkill. Also seems like it would be a waste of the LR in general as in the formation you want to keep it in the back ranks, but generally the major strength of a LR is it being an assault vehicle.

There isn't actually a way to take Deathwing in a LR outside of a CAD correct?

Is there a best load out for Deathwing terminators? What about the Deathwing command squad?

Why do people say Blackknights are the best unit in the codex?

Thanks!

In my opinion the hammer is too many points. But I'm not a big land raider user so for me it's a major tax. It is potentially a lot of armor to hide your guns behind, and tech marine fixing hull points on the land raider can make it annoying for your opponent, but its never more than one sD hit from coming apart.

Technically you can take land raiders with any deathwing unit you want, in any formation. However, because it is placed in deep strike reserve and does not have the deep strike special rule, it stays in reserves forever.

The only way to use a land raider is with the static FOC or HoC

The loadout for terminators depends on the game you're hunting for. This tends to change a lot over time. All TH/SS with cyclone was a good pick once. There are massive posts outlining how to setup your squad and where to place SS. You can try looking those up. Personally, since this codex cripples the way you play DW, I shelved mine until they're deployment options are fixed.

Black Knights used to be the best unit in the entire game. They're still one of the best, but have been toned down quit a bit. They're basically enhanced genestealers on bikes with twin-linked plasma guns. When you consider their increased jink, RSF first turn rules, and stasis grenades, there isn't much that can survive an attack from them. When combined with librarian and chaplain, they're even more insane. They ignore difficult terrain so you can give them a 3+ re-rollable jink and then jump out and ambush anything within 18" reliably and without much worry.

In the games I've used them, they've been rock stars. They even tanked a round of shooting from a blood angel sterngaurd squad without a single loss (the blood angel actually lost one of his own to overheat). The return fire wiped the sterngaurd like breadcrumbs off a counter top.

Their only weakness is ap3 template weapons.

[PhilB]

I'm not a fan of The Hammer of Caliban. It's so much points and firepower to sink into a single target per turn.

I've tried it with the Predators, the Whirlwinds and the Vindicators. 

The Predators were with a Godhammer and is was a 5,000 point game. They definitely put in work against my opponent's Stompa and the LR out front really did help the squadron survive, but if I were to play that game again I'd sink those points into Knight/s instead to be honest.

I took the Whirlwinds with a Crusader but found most of the game the Crusader was either out of range or didn't have LOS to what I wanted to drop all those templates on. Survivability wasn't too much of an issue as you can hide Whirldwinds a lot of the time.

Finally I took a Redeemer with the Vindicators, I remember being really excited to see how this one would go as it was the first time I was actually going to use the transport component of the LR and packed it full of Az, Ez & some tooled up Vets. It all went to hell on the second turn however when the LR was one shot by a dark lance then deep striking scourges with haywire glanced the squadron to hell.

 

To summarise, for me it feels like the LR and any tank option are trying to achieve or bring different and conflicting things to the army forcing you to choose which way to use them at a large opportunity cost. Also, vehicle squadrons limit your targeting choices while increasing the effectiveness of your opponents choices by limiting overkill.

The Pred/Godhammer combo is probably the only one I'd look but even then only and a very large game and only if you wanted to stay pure DA and weren't interested in taking Knight allies.