1st Company and Terminator Armour Ratio

[Helias_Tancred]

Great information presented.

 

Personally I like the idea that possessing 100 suits of terminator armor is very special. So that being said I think I'd say we have 60 suits of terminator armor in the Archangels. That means when you encounter a hulk and dispatch 4 terminator squads (20) and support to investigate and cleanse it, that represents an important operation in terms of chapter resources committed. 

 

My .02

[Quixus]

Isn't that what I said?

 

Well it's what I meant, lol. The *only* meant that they fielded only those.

To me is sounded like they are the only ones that field 100 marines in TDA at the same time in the same battle. Nevermind then.

 

The "Deathwing" section is the place to look: It's on page 20 of the interactive edition.

 

"The Deathwing are the Dark Angels 1st company. Unlike the elite battle brothers of other chapters, the fight exclusively in terminator armour. That the Dark Angels can equip all of their veterans this way speaks volumes of the wealth of relics hidden deep within the rock"

 

Emphasis mine. The Deathwing Structure Chart on the following page also shows that the company consists of 20 Terminator Squads.

 

As of this (and I guess last edition) Knights are separate to this, so in addition to the 100 suits for regular veterans, there are 15 suits for 3x knight houses, Librarians and Chaplains is plural, so minimum 2x suits for each branch, and then one for Belial. As of 7th Ed, the Dark Angels can field 120 suits of TDA simultaneously.

That just says that the DA have a well stocked armoury, it says nothing about the exclusivity of such an armoury. BA and other Legions First Founding Chapters should have similarly stocked armouries. Also the chart tells us that they have should have at least 200 suits of "regular" TDA and 30 suits of knight TDA (squads are up to 10 marines) plus whatever the characters need. I'm not sure if the command squad are additional marines or if the squad is assembled ad hoc from marines of the 1st company. That already is more than a codex chapter needs/should have.

[Xenith]

Yes, was going to suggest the 200 suits, but then you have no evidence for the deathwing company being 200 strong, not 100.

[Saul Invictus]

Terminator armour is incredibly rare, hard to reproduce, and hard to repair, so the loss of one suit is a major blow.

 

The Ultramarines were said to have the entire 1st company in TDA at the Battle for Macragge, so call that at least 102 suits, if we count Captain Invictus and whatever Chaplain was attached, Calgar has the Armour of Whatshisname, that's 103. One could assume there may have been the odd Librarian or two attached too, but I'll get to that point soon.

After the losses, the rebuilding, and the recovery, the Ultramarines are said to have 76 suits, 250 years later.

 

What's open to interpretation is whether these are literally all the suits of TDA, or I'd these are just what's available to the 1st company.

Captain Agemann has a suit.

Calgar has his magic suit.

The Reclusiam must have at least one suit, as the 1st company champion dons a suit, and there's the skull helmet for that, and the fact it's black. I'd say 1-2 there.

Then we have the Librarium, I imagine fitting a psychic hood to TDA is no easy feat, and that such armour would need to he inscribed with protective wards, so they must have a suit or two, let's say two, for arguments sake.

 

This means 70 suits for the 1st company, and 6 for various command staff, which makes sense to me.

 

But then other Captains can all wear TDA too, so let's say there's 5 suits reserved for a couple of other command staff and Captains, maybe 1 each to the Librarium and Reclusiam, giving them 3 each, and the last 3 that the Captains from companies 2-9 (10?) Can access.

 

This is all just headcannon, but it's always made sense to me.

[Lucien Eilam]

That just says that the DA have a well stocked armoury, it says nothing about the exclusivity of such an armoury.

Of course it does. If it was par for the course, it wouldn't even be worth them mentioning it, never mind it "speaking volumes".

 

BA and other Legions First Founding Chapters should have similarly stocked armouries.

Why should they? And they don't. Every time another First Founding Chapter's number of Terminator suits has been mentioned, it's been less than 100: 76 for the Ultramarines, 80 for the Blood Angels at the Sin of Damnation.

[Quixus]

Yes, was going to suggest the 200 suits, but then you have no evidence for the deathwing company being 200 strong, not 100.

You don't have evidence that the 1st company is 100 strong or that a battle company is ~50 strong either. However we have explicit statements that the Deathwing contains 20 squads and that each squad is comprised of between 5 and 10 marines. We have no evidence that squads are undermanned or that they are even allowed to combine two five man squads into one ten man squad. So at the very least the nominal strength of the Deathwing is 200+ according to the rules.

 

The number twenty however may have come from the erroneous assumption that Deathwing squads were 5 men only, like in 4th Ed when the squad number also appeared. In 6th the Deathwing had an undisclosed number of squads with a variable number of squad members. So 100 may be the intended number of Deathwing members.

 

Either way there is no evidence that the Dark Angels are the only ones with enough suits to equip the whole first company, just that their 1st company does not move out wearing PA.

 

 

That just says that the DA have a well stocked armoury, it says nothing about the exclusivity of such an armoury.

Of course it does. If it was par for the course, it wouldn't even be worth them mentioning it, never mind it "speaking volumes".

 

While it is significant, it does not say DA are the only ones that can do it or there is no other chapter that may do it.

 

Why should they?

Because they had access to similar resources before and during the Heresy, and to my knowledge there is no definitive decision what space marine chapters can manufacture themselves or what the output of forgeworlds are.

 

Every time another First Founding Chapter's number of Terminator suits has been mentioned, it's been less than 100: 76 for the Ultramarines, 80 for the Blood Angels at the Sin of Damnation.

Do those publications actually mention the number of suits or the number of veterans in such suits? It could be that they just don't have enough veterans skilled in the use of those suits at that moment in time. Speaking of the timeline, the Battle for Macragge was in 745.M41, so they have 254 years to replenish their numbers until 999.M41. I'm not sure when the attack on the Sin of Damnation took place but it is doubtful that it was in 999.M41.

 

[Xenith]

 

Yes, was going to suggest the 200 suits, but then you have no evidence for the deathwing company being 200 strong, not 100.

You don't have evidence that the 1st company is 100 strong

 

 

You cannot argue with that logic.

[Charlo]

Honestly say this really has no answer. The cannon is fluid and ever changing.

[NTaW]

Honestly say this really has no answer. The cannon is fluid and ever changing.

qft.

[Arkangilos]

Sin of Damnation happened 589.M41.

 

Remember, though, that the Blood Angels lost all but 40 people in the previous major space hulk they borded several centuries before. I seriously doubt that with only 40 people in the entire chapter, they managed to secure the majority of their suits used in the battle. That also wasn't the first time their entire chapter was practically wiped out.

[Quixus]

Sin of Damnation happened 589.M41.

So they had 410 years to replenish their armoury and train veterans.

 

Remember, though, that the Blood Angels lost all but 40 people in the previous major space hulk they borded several centuries before.

Unless you are talking about a different botched attack, that was several millennia ago.

 

I seriously doubt that with only 40 people in the entire chapter, they managed to secure the majority of their suits used in the battle.

Well they could make new ones. I think the silly fluff saying "we can't make this anymore and we can't make that anymore" is gone from recent editions.

[evildrcheese]

Not pertaining to fluff, I'm aiming for 30 of each type of Vet. So:

30 Sternguard

30 Vanguard

30 shooty TDA

30 Assault TDA

 

I think that'll give me a decent spread to chose from when fielding my 1st Co...

 

EDC

[Arkangilos]

It happened one millienia ago, because it happened in M40. And unless something says they are easily replaced now, I'd still be in the camp where it takes forever to replace them.

 

Also, if it took the Ultramarines nearly three centuries to rebuild their chapter to be complete then I have a feeling building back from 40 would take a bit longer. But maybe not.

 

But with the SoD I wasn't throwing that out as how mauled they got. From what I understand casualties weren't insane there. I was just providing a date.