SoH at Prospero

[b1soul]

Forget whether it's a good creative choice. Is it logical.

 

The Emperor wants Magnus arrested ... he sends the VIth as a show of force, Custodes, and SoS.

 

Horus wants the two legions to break each other. He views both as loyal. He throws in the Legio Mortis and an extra company of SoH, not to stack the odds in favor of the SW (something the Emp would have done had he wanted to annihilate the TSons at minimal cost to the attacking force - which wasn't actually the case) but to ensure a balanced fight resulting in massive casualties on both sides.

 

Horus did not anticipate that Magnus would essentially backstab Prospero's defences. If he has, perhaps he would not have sent Mortis and an extra company to bolster the attacking force...

 

Does the above make sense to you guys?

I mean...why would Horus want to use SoH though? Wouldn't he want to hide his involvement from Magnus? In case Magnus won or survived a loss?

[drooling blood]

And...? Not really.

 

Legio Mortis end up on Terra anyway. Losing another thousand well, generic marines, might make the shields drop a hour earlier.

[helterskelter]

If it wasn't for the fact that in the novels so far where someone knows about prospero, not once were a contigent of SoH mentioned, magnus should now not take sides, IF there are SoH there.

I also think if magnus makes it to Terra, he should be the reason the shields fall.

 

"Magnus my brother, come to aid at last?"

" in a way brother "

"Sir, the shields... they're down!"

[DarKnight]

I don't mind the retcon, and it makes sense to me so I'm all for it. There's so much crap that's been produced since the Heresy went into overdrive that I ignore, that adding this to the canon is relatively easy. As far as the bruised egos of our VI Legion brothers on these Boards, from what we've learned the assault on Terra was supposed to occur much faster than the 7 years the entire Heresy took. Horus failed in breaking the Wolves and in keeping them from the walls of Terra (if that's where they wanted to be). I think they comported themselves well.

[Kelborn]

Well, I don't have a problem with this as well.

I indeedn hope that they will make it in a solid and reasonable way. We got two novels which cover the battle of Prosperro and these ones are how I am imagening the battle. With only one titan participating.

 

I can imagine that the SoH may stay in orbit to keep an eye on the wolves if they are doing it the right way (how Horus wants it). Can imagine that the Legio Mortis and the SoH are attacking the forge world which has ties to the TS. Whatever it will be, I will wait for it before I render a judgement. Can imagine them fighting at the borders of the battle, attacking important supply depots or something like that. Don't think that Horus wants the TS to know of his legions involvement.

 

By the way, did he wanted them to be extinct or to be nearly annihilated so that he can turn the survivors into allies against the Emperor as they would start to hate the Wolves and Big E for what they had done to them?

 

Got only one request: please, don't start another intense discussion betwenn Vlka fans and the rest of the forum including dissing each other. That was the reason I haven't wrote anything in Atias thread.

 

The wolves are among my most favorite legions / chapters, don't get me wrong.

 

I can follow both sides but please stay calm and let us wait until the book comes, ok?

[DarkChaplain]

I think its an unnecessary and ridiculously late retcon. It doesn't go well with what we got so far either.

[deathspectersgt7]

Another retcon now Soh at prospero crazy anything to sell a story. That is why I quit the heresy all together.

[b1soul]

Perhaps the true reason the SoH were there was to help the TSons if it became somewhat obvious that the TSons would win on defence? I.e. "Hey Magnus...I'm on your side...see?"

 

However, it might be hard for the SoH to justify why they're hanging back..."Lord Russ and Lord Valdor...we have been tasked by Horus to assist only if necessary"...or perhaps "we shall strike at these peripheral targets" [so that their assistance is less visible]

[Jareddm]

I have a question, as I don't have my novels with me at the moment and I can't remember the exact scene.  In Prospero Burns, did we ever get a scene of Russ talking with Horus, telling him the change in orders though astropathic message?  Or did Russ just enter the room and say, "I've received different orders from Horus.  This is what we're doing now."  If the latter, might it be possible that the message was delivered by a SoH courier ship and Russ said, "Warp's getting pretty rough out there.  Why don't you tag along with us to Prospero?" 

[b1soul]

I have a question, as I don't have my novels with me at the moment and I can't remember the exact scene.  In Prospero Burns, did we ever get a scene of Russ talking with Horus, telling him the change in orders though astropathic message?  Or did Russ just enter the room and say, "I've received different orders from Horus.  This is what we're doing now."  If the latter, might it be possible that the message was delivered by a SoH courier ship and Russ said, "Warp's getting pretty rough out there.  Why don't you tag along with us to Prospero?"

 

Perhaps Horus would want to aid Russ ... but I don't think he'd want such assistance to obviously implicate the XVIth...

 

If Magnus wins or if Magnus/some TSons survive, Horus would want to maximize the chance of their siding with the Traitors

 

If Magnus thinks "the Emp wanted me destroyed and Horus sent SoH forces to assist the invasion"...that's not good for Horus

[Fire Golem]

We haven't actually seen that much of Prospero, the bits we have seen have been about certain individuals there, not so much the battle as a whole. It's only 1 company of SoH (so 100 Marines), so it's not even necessarily a retcon, jus filling in some blanks. It's a retcon that doesn't change the stories we've had so far really unless we suddenly have Ahriman fighting SoH or a SoH legionnaire being encountered by the Space Wolves Skajld.

 

I'm also pretty sure Magnus knows that Horus was behind Prospero by the time he sides with Horus (well, Chaos anyway) so I don't think 100 marines would sway that decision much.

[Felix Antipodes]

Horus was only offering up a Company. Enough to say I'm helping you Bro, but not enough to change the outcome of the battle if he's looking for the 1K Sons to take a pasting. Also, 100 marines would thin a very low visibility on a planet wide battleground.

[Sandlemad]

I have a question, as I don't have my novels with me at the moment and I can't remember the exact scene.  In Prospero Burns, did we ever get a scene of Russ talking with Horus, telling him the change in orders though astropathic message?  Or did Russ just enter the room and say, "I've received different orders from Horus.  This is what we're doing now."  If the latter, might it be possible that the message was delivered by a SoH courier ship and Russ said, "Warp's getting pretty rough out there.  Why don't you tag along with us to Prospero?" 

 

So far the discussion between Russ and Horus has been completely off-screen, like most of the details of Prospero. Like fire golem said, we have really only got glimpses of the battle, even less than the Isstvaans or Calth.

 

Also worth noting that companies in the SoH varied a lot in size and are explicitly noted as being ad-hoc in structure, particularly as the great crusade wore on. Betrayal gives one example of a campaign which had companies as small as 36 men and companies as large as nearly a thousand. We don't know how big the SoH force will be.

[JH79]

We haven't actually seen that much of Prospero, the bits we have seen have been about certain individuals there, not so much the battle as a whole. 

 

Good point. Prospero Burns, from what i can remember, was all centered around Kasper Hawser with nearly everything shown from his POV... it's plausible to integrate new elements such as this, kind of like the Wolf Packs dispatched to keep watch over each of the Legions, it just needs fleshing out a bit.

 

 

I also think if magnus makes it to Terra, he should be the reason the shields fall.

 

"Magnus my brother, come to aid at last?"

" in a way brother "

"Sir, the shields... they're down!"

 

Would those be the shields protecting Terra or The Vengeful Spirit...

 

"You had your chance brother and my sons have paid for your hubris in blood... farewell"

"Sir, the shields... they're down!"

[Kriegsmacht]

Vengeful spirit.

 

I prefer the reason for the shields lowering is because of Horus being both desperate and his hubris. He believed he could kill the emperor and win the war so lowered them.

[1000 Sons]

Vengeful spirit.

I prefer the reason for the shields lowering is because of Horus being both desperate and his hubris. He believed he could kill the emperor and win the war so lowered them.

 

I also prefer this version why the shields go down. If there was a change maybe Magnus and Russ meet again on Terra and Russ explains how it was Horus that made him attack Prospero . Magnus disappears and confronts Horus, finds the truth and then he and the Thousand Sons danish from the battle and the vengeful spirits shields are destroyed.

[Kriegsmacht]

Space wolves don't make it to terra until after the siege. It was them, the dark angels, and Ultramarine racing to terra that led to horus lowering the shields as a last ditch effort to win the war.

 

Then again it wouldn't surprise me if FW makes an 'addition' and has elements of all loyalist legions at the siege instead of just three so yeah your theory could still happen.

[Marshal Loss]

Then again it wouldn't surprise me if FW makes an 'addition' and has elements of all loyalist legions at the siege instead of just three so yeah your theory could still happen.

 

They've already said they won't do that although who knows what will change by the time we get to it

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I never understood why the arrival of the Ultras, Angels, and Space Wolves would have made a difference.

[Atia]

 

Then again it wouldn't surprise me if FW makes an 'addition' and has elements of all loyalist legions at the siege instead of just three so yeah your theory could still happen.

 

They've already said they won't do that although who knows what will change by the time we get to it

 

Actually. They said. There will be atleast representatives of all Legions at Terra. There is f.e. a Raven Guard detachment that arrives at Terra. That said, the main forces will still be Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists, no worries. 

[JH79]

Vengeful spirit.

I prefer the reason for the shields lowering is because of Horus being both desperate and his hubris. He believed he could kill the emperor and win the war so lowered them.

I always found that part strange re the VS shields...I only know a few details outside of the Heresy novels and a few WiKi pages as I'm unfortunately not a codex man. If Horus was so sure and confident in his power to kill the Emperor I believe he would have bestrode the battlefield as early as possible. It almost feels like there should be more to it than it just being his rushed decision and final throw of the dice... a one way trip Knight Errant incursion force lead by Loken... sabotage by the hands of John Grammaticus, Little Horus... maybe even Ezekyle! I like the idea of Horus being literally forced into the confrontation, with his thought process having no part to play what so ever.

I never understood why the arrival of the Ultras, Angels, and Space Wolves would have made a difference.

In any siege your resource is finite and Horus's forces paid for every inch of ground they took on Terra with blood... just as the loyalists were massacred by the arrival of 4 fresh legions at Istvaan V, so too would Horus and his cronies be butchered by the arrival of the Dark Angels, Ultramarine's and Space Wolves. 3 fresh faced and mighty off Primarchs, at least 2 Gloriana class battleships and an armada of vengeance fueled Astartes crammed warships and other Imperial Forces all just chomping at the bit to have a pop at the Warmasters rear hide. The traitors literally found themselves between hammer and anvil

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

Then again it wouldn't surprise me if FW makes an 'addition' and has elements of all loyalist legions at the siege instead of just three so yeah your theory could still happen.

 

They've already said they won't do that although who knows what will change by the time we get to it

 

Actually. They said. There will be atleast representatives of all Legions at Terra. There is f.e. a Raven Guard detachment that arrives at Terra. That said, the main forces will still be Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists, no worries. 

 

 

No. Actually. They said. That a handful of marines from other Legions (etc) will not change the makeup of the Terran war. I know this because I was actually there, and asked in person. Tiny groups from other Legions don't qualify as 'elements' in my book as they have a negligible impact on the battle, and do not feature in the narrative as players in the conflict. They're simply there so that people can have their guys on Terra if they desire. Raven Guard, and other Legions like them, will not feature in the Terran books. That is what they said.

 

It's entirely besides the point and misrepresents the situation. The war is so huge there are inevitably representatives everywhere, however the main factions on Terra are completely unchanged. There are only certain Legions present, only certain Titan Legions, etc. They said at the last Weekender that they faced a task justifying and setting up the situation where so many Legions were not there on time, and balancing out the remainder of the war so that those Legions who are not on Terra - i.e., Raven Guard  - are not left in a position where they appear useless and irrelevant to the passage of the war, while still maintaining pseudo-historical accuracy.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Vengeful spirit.

I prefer the reason for the shields lowering is because of Horus being both desperate and his hubris. He believed he could kill the emperor and win the war so lowered them.

I always found that part strange re the VS shields...I only know a few details outside of the Heresy novels and a few WiKi pages as I'm unfortunately not a codex man. If Horus was so sure and confident in his power to kill the Emperor I believe he would have bestrode the battlefield as early as possible. It almost feels like there should be more to it than it just being his rushed decision and final throw of the dice... a one way trip Knight Errant incursion force lead by Loken... sabotage by the hands of John Grammaticus, Little Horus... maybe even Ezekyle! I like the idea of Horus being literally forced into the confrontation, with his thought process having no part to play what so ever.

I never understood why the arrival of the Ultras, Angels, and Space Wolves would have made a difference.

In any siege your resource is finite and Horus's forces paid for every inch of ground they took on Terra with blood... just as the loyalists were massacred by the arrival of 4 fresh legions at Istvaan V, so too would Horus and his cronies be butchered by the arrival of the Dark Angels, Ultramarine's and Space Wolves. 3 fresh faced and mighty off Primarchs, at least 2 Gloriana class battleships and an armada of vengeance fueled Astartes crammed warships and other Imperial Forces all just chomping at the bit to have a pop at the Warmasters rear hide. The traitors literally found themselves between hammer and anvil

But that's the thing, they aren't going up against 3 fresh fleets. The Ultramarines didn't even have enough ships to beat Lorgar's Trisagion and 2 Glorianas, the Space Wolves lost I believe 75% of their fleet at Alaxxes, and the DA had taken modest casaulties during the Shadow Crusade. Even if the Traitors lose 80% of their ships in the orbital battle the reinforcement fleet wouldn't have enough ships to win.

[JH79]

But that's the thing, they aren't going up against 3 fresh fleets. The Ultramarines didn't even have enough ships to beat Lorgar's Trisagion and 2 Glorianas, the Space Wolves lost I believe 75% of their fleet at Alaxxes, and the DA had taken modest casaulties during the Shadow Crusade. Even if the Traitors lose 80% of their ships in the orbital battle the reinforcement fleet wouldn't have enough ships to win.

Hmmmm... but Wordbearers lost their Gloriana Flagship at the end of Betrayer at the hands of the Ultramarines. We know how the Abyss was destroyed and another of Lorgars king ships is shown to be a floating wreck in Deathfire as it is described to be littered with bodies of Ultramarines and Wordbearers locked in frozen combat, where as the Abyss was taken down by a handful of suicidal Loyalists. We know the space wolves enact repairs and refit as seen at the start of Vengeful Spirit and the Dark Angels fleet as described by Abnett in The Unremembered Empire shows them as still a very sizable and threatening force.

I would easily wager that after all the loss of life at the siege, the combined power of this force arriving at Terra would still be enough to end Horus and the remains of his forces... or at the very worst end in the complete destruction of both sides with neither the victor.

Time will tell i suppose as to how it will all be handled, i feel sorry for the writers as this seems like a monstrous undertaking to get right! But i cannot wait to see how it all unfolds!

[b1soul]

I don't know if the arrival of the SW, DA, and UM would guarantee loyalist victory...but it certainly would not be good for the traitors