SoH at Prospero

[Marshal Rohr]

I never understood why the arrival of the Ultras, Angels, and Space Wolves would have made a difference.

Because when you've fully committed all your sane forces to siege lines and urban combat three gigantic fleets enveloping your position in orbit and then surrounding your siege positions means you lose.

[1ncarnadine]

 

I never understood why the arrival of the Ultras, Angels, and Space Wolves would have made a difference.

Because when you've fully committed all your sane forces to siege lines and urban combat three gigantic fleets enveloping your position in orbit and then surrounding your siege positions means you lose.

 

 

Yep. Pretty much bad news all around, because you have to consider that your ships need to be manned in the kind of void combat the Legiones Astartes do. Each ship is its own fortress to defend. Even if those three Legions total something like 200,000 Astartes after all their losses, that's still not cool, and we don't know what else they bring with them. How many Titan Legions, solar auxilia regiments, shattered legions etc do they tow with them?

 

Oh and then on Terra itself, the Emperor's Children finally lose it completely and break from the walls to go gratify themselves.

 

The Death Guard arrive way late, albeit in a more terrifying form, but let's be honest they were probably needed from the start with their numbers and skills.

 

Also the Night Lords at this point have already started fracturing badly and indulging their criminal tendencies. Plus they've lost large factions of their Legion to splintering when Sevatar breaks up the Legion (and some never come back, see Ophion). 

 

And who knows how many of the World Eaters fail to retreat and waste themselves during any number of the assaults that go on during the siege? They have to have taken insane losses during this fight, many of which were probably unnecessary. The old Warhammer World Siege of Terra display comes to mind, where there's a huge breach in the walls but it is almost entirely filled in with World Eaters corpses, with Khârn standing on top.

 

The Thousand Sons are also present in numbers we can only guess at but probably small, and they have pretty incredible self-preservation instincts, so.

 

That's 5/9 Legions with serious hang-ups during the siege, assuming the Alpha Legion hasn't had crazy issues with unification of purpose yet. Kinda rough going for Horus on this one. I'd be interested to know about the Mechanicum presence though; is Kelbor-Hal there, with Mars off blockade and supplying the Siege in-system? Other traitor Forge Worlds' Taghmatas? Dang I'm so looking forward to this. It's hard to tell from the long post right

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

But that's the thing, they aren't going up against 3 fresh fleets. The Ultramarines didn't even have enough ships to beat Lorgar's Trisagion and 2 Glorianas, the Space Wolves lost I believe 75% of their fleet at Alaxxes, and the DA had taken modest casaulties during the Shadow Crusade. Even if the Traitors lose 80% of their ships in the orbital battle the reinforcement fleet wouldn't have enough ships to win.

 

All of which is a bunch of retcons that have come out of the recent HH series, which seems to exist primarily to inflict stupidly large losses on the Loyalists (to the point where issues like this arise). BTW, do you have a source for the 75% at Alaxxes? I've yet to see anything that specific mentioned (though I am yet to read Wolf King, the lexicanum page only has 'unknown, presumably heavy'). When the 'current' fluff for the Siege was written (which) is all we really have to go on atm, all three Legions were mostly intact ('intact' being a somewhat relative term for this period of apocalyptic civil war), the losses of Calth, Prospero, Yarant etc. easily being compensated for by the losses the Traitors had also suffered during the war and the Siege itself.

[JH79]

But that's the thing, they aren't going up against 3 fresh fleets. The Ultramarines didn't even have enough ships to beat Lorgar's Trisagion and 2 Glorianas, the Space Wolves lost I believe 75% of their fleet at Alaxxes, and the DA had taken modest casaulties during the Shadow Crusade. Even if the Traitors lose 80% of their ships in the orbital battle the reinforcement fleet wouldn't have enough ships to win.

All of which is a bunch of retcons that have come out of the recent HH series, which seems to exist primarily to inflict stupidly large losses on the Loyalists (to the point where issues like this arise). BTW, do you have a source for the 75% at Alaxxes? I've yet to see anything that specific mentioned (though I am yet to read Wolf King, the lexicanum page only has 'unknown, presumably heavy'). When the 'current' fluff for the Siege was written (which) is all we really have to go on atm, all three Legions were mostly intact ('intact' being a somewhat relative term for this period of apocalyptic civil war), the losses of Calth, Prospero, Yarant etc. easily being compensated for by the losses the Traitors had also suffered during the war and the Siege itself.

The losses the Wolves take at Alaxxes are pretty damn heavy, 75% does sound quite close to how i estimated the reduction in their number after finishing Wolf King, which is a great read when you get the chance. As for the other Legions The Dark Angels with the Lion we know are fully 50% of the legions strength of which some have been lost during Thramis, but again Abnetts depiction of the Lions fleet in TUE is epic to say the least. The Ultramarines despite taking as many losses as they have still must have a legion strength of around 50k given that only 200k of their full 250k were on calth and not all of them were slaughtered by the Word Bearers.

As for the traitors you've got a good point in that they have all been bloodied too. Firstly at Istvaan III & V. Iron Warriors take huge losses at Tallarn, Word Bearers suffering at least 50% full Legion casualties at Calth... the World Eaters throwing themselves into any and every fight they can regardless of their losses (Betrayer highlights this quite nicly) and the Nightlords getting a damn good thrashing at the hands of the Dark Angels at the close of Thramus. Then there's the Alpha legion, who seem to be damn well everywhere at once but have had their fare share of losses too (see Wolf King).

Finally in Path of Heaven the Scars are described to of killed nearly a million traitors (obviously not all astartes lol) over their 4 year campaign to slow the advance on Terra which is no small feat in intself

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The losses the Wolves take at Alaxxes are pretty damn heavy, 75% does sound quite close to how i estimated the reduction in their number after finishing Wolf King, which is a great read when you get the chance. As for the other Legions The Dark Angels with the Lion we know are fully 50% of the legions strength of which some have been lost during Thramis, but again Abnetts depiction of the Lions fleet in TUE is epic to say the least. The Ultramarines despite taking as many losses as they have still must have a legion strength of around 50k given that only 200k of their full 250k were on calth and not all of them were slaughtered by the Word Bearers.

Well I'll see as and when I can stomach the cost of the novella. That said, I'd have assumed that if that was the case, the lexicanum page would say something worse than "presumably heavy", though that may just be a personal thing, as I'd only use 'heavy' for, say 20-50%, with 75% certainly being 'catastrophic'.

 

However, something to bear in mind with void war, is how relatively rare complete destruction of a cruiser+ displacement ship is. Unlike ground war between Astartes, where 'casualties' becomes synonymous with 'KIA'. Even if a lot of ships are taken out of action, it's entirely possible that many of them can be recovered and repaired, as long as their owners retain the 'field' (which I believe happens at Alaxxes, with the combined Wolves and DAs driving off the AL). So given there's, what, 5 years or so between Alaxxes and Terra, it's entirely plausible that a large proportion of 'lost' ships have returned to service, especially if their Legion takes the time out to repair (which I believe is implied the Wolves do in Vengeful Spirit, though again, afraid I don't have first hand knowledge). Note, this principle applies to any Legion, not just the SWs.

[JH79]

The losses the Wolves take at Alaxxes are pretty damn heavy, 75% does sound quite close to how i estimated the reduction in their number after finishing Wolf King, which is a great read when you get the chance. As for the other Legions The Dark Angels with the Lion we know are fully 50% of the legions strength of which some have been lost during Thramis, but again Abnetts depiction of the Lions fleet in TUE is epic to say the least. The Ultramarines despite taking as many losses as they have still must have a legion strength of around 50k given that only 200k of their full 250k were on calth and not all of them were slaughtered by the Word Bearers.

Well I'll see as and when I can stomach the cost of the novella. That said, I'd have assumed that if that was the case, the lexicanum page would say something worse than "presumably heavy", though that may just be a personal thing, as I'd only use 'heavy' for, say 20-50%, with 75% certainly being 'catastrophic'.

However, something to bear in mind with void war, is how relatively rare complete destruction of a cruiser+ displacement ship is. Unlike ground war between Astartes, where 'casualties' becomes synonymous with 'KIA'. Even if a lot of ships are taken out of action, it's entirely possible that many of them can be recovered and repaired, as long as their owners retain the 'field' (which I believe happens at Alaxxes, with the combined Wolves and DAs driving off the AL). So given there's, what, 5 years or so between Alaxxes and Terra, it's entirely plausible that a large proportion of 'lost' ships have returned to service, especially if their Legion takes the time out to repair (which I believe is implied the Wolves do in Vengeful Spirit, though again, afraid I don't have first hand knowledge). Note, this principle applies to any Legion, not just the SWs.

Spot on. The Wolves are at Terra at the beginning of Vengeful Spirit for complete re-fit, repair and a maybe even a goblet or two of Mjod while they wait. The Wolf King is still set on finding Horus to give him a good thrashing one on one so the losses his legion suffers cannot be THAT bad in his eyes, plus he more than likely as you say salvaged damaged ships and bolstered his forces with others from the ship yards at terra. They do also have a chance encounter with the Dark Angels who fall under Luthers command, not the Lion and there is talk of the transfer of material and weapons for information which the Dark Angels of Caliban are lacking quite a bit of.

Wolf King as a Novella is quite pricy but i needed to fill the gap in the plot line in and it did that quite well... couldn't hold out on Garro: Vow of Faith either which i've just taken the plunge on too (locks away credit card!). A more patient man will find them released in a numbered volume anthology soon enough though

[DarkChaplain]

From what I gather, Vow of Faith will be part of Garro: Weapon of Fate along with the other Garro stories, edited into one over-narrative or somesuch that spans about 4 years of the Heresy since Flight of the Eisenstein. Numbered entry.

[JH79]

From what I gather, Vow of Faith will be part of Garro: Weapon of Fate along with the other Garro stories, edited into one over-narrative or somesuch that spans about 4 years of the Heresy since Flight of the Eisenstein. Numbered entry.

Awesome, that sounds like it'll be a great collection if they weave the tales together. I just recently re-re-re-finished Flight of the Eisenstein (love that book) and followed it up with The Voice and then Ghosts Speak Not / Patience which i now finally have thanks to all the recent anthologies. I'll say one thing for heresy titles, when you string them together it makes for a great experience, i'd like to see James Swallow cover more of those few remaining loyal Death Guard.

Needless to say that little journey is what prompted the immediate purchase of Vow of Faith lol!