Apparent changes in the hardback volume of 'A Thousand Sons'

[Kol Saresk]

Oh, for everyone complaining about the two years before Istvaan, if Prospero was at the same time, then how is Khârn in two places at once?

[Kriegsmacht]

Bad writing?

[Kriegsmacht]

 

40k is retcon not 30k.

What does that even mean? That you deny anything since the Index Astartes articles?

 

 

What's wrong with that?

[Petitioner's City]

On what a retcon or a change is, there is an important distinction. Christopher L Bennett, a writer of Trek tie in fiction as well as his own sci fi, described 'retcon' in response to how people misuse the term on the Trekbbs. CLB is an excellent pedant and thus very secure in what and how he writes, especially in how he uses definitions:

 

 

 

But as specified, the question isn't about retcons in the sense of changes, but in the original sense of the word -- retroactive continuity, things that were established later but retroactively treated as having always been the case. Sometimes that means changing what the characters believed to be the case, like having Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch discover they're actually Magneto's children, then having them discover that they aren't, then that they are, then that they aren't, etc. But most of the time it just means backfilling a detail that was never mentioned before but wasn't ruled out either -- like ST:GEN revealing that Sulu has had a daughter all this time. Or, heck, like later TOS season 1 episodes establishing that the Enterprise actually reported to an organization called the Federation, rather than being just an Earth ship as assumed in the first half of the season. Most retcons are something that are new to the audience when they're revealed but are assumed to have been known to the characters all along -- hence the "retroactive" part.

 

This is quite useful for thinking about how changes and retcons interact in revisions to license properties (irrespective of whether we think it's right, a la  Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's continually changing status and parentage in comics):

• 'the original sense of the word -- retroactive continuity, things that were established later but retroactively treated as having always been the case'
• 'retroactive continuity, things that were established later but retroactively treated as having always been the case. Sometimes that means changing what the characters believed to be the case'
• 'But most of the time it just means backfilling a detail that was never mentioned before but wasn't ruled out either'
• 'Most retcons are something that are new to the audience when they're revealed but are assumed to have been known to the characters all along -- hence the "retroactive" part.'

A retcon like this for 40K is Astra Militarum - and it's just another piece of nomenclature we can assume was always used in-world; or Gaunt finding out he had a son in Salvation's Reach, or the prototype Golden Throne in the recent Scars novel. Perhaps loyalist from the traitors and traitors from the loyalist legions and blackshields can all fit in here. 

 

This differentiates a retcon from an actual change (I'm not sure what the word could be): the size of the Legions, for example, or the stories of primarchs which directly contradict past ones (not just Alpharius Omegon of course), or indeed many of the things done by FW and BL writers in the past decade about the Legions, Imperial Army, Navy, cultures, etc. 

[Kol Saresk]

Correct. So in context to A Thousands, the timeline isn't a retcon so much as a revelation as the Index Astartes articles were written from the misinformed, half-forgotten point of view of 40K, not 30K. Otherwise Russ and the 13th Great Company would have to start chasing the Sons immediately following Prospero while somehow simultaneously fighting the Heresy, the Scouring, and protest the codex Astartes.

 

In the case of the numbers from paperback to hardback, that is an actual retcon as the paperback was written before the jumpstart in numbers. As it is, we still don't know how large the Sons were, just that only ten thousand were at Prospero and of that number, only ~1,000 survived.

[Leif Bearclaw]

This is beyond idiotic. It makes Prospero kinda pointless. Hell, it makes Istvaan III more costly for the 4 original Traitor Legions than Propsero is for the Sons.  Especially if this is consistent with the numbers FW were apparently throwing around recently with regards to SW losses at Prospero.

 

This makes all 'which Legion is best' arguments done however. The Thousand Sons win. Taking on an entire other Legion, the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence, losing, but bleeding them dry (if FW's numbers are to be believed), with only12.5-20% of their total strength (even Magnus sits out most of the fight)? Sure sounds like 'Maines +1' to me.

 

Also, 2 years is stupid. That means 4 years pass between Prospero and Wolves next major Heresy engagements at Yarant/Alaxxes (as those are 007, Istvaan being 005). What were the Wolves doing in all that time? Sitting in the corner being sad?

[Archidamus]

Didn't Alan say that after Prospero, the Wolves started conquering/destroying the Thousand Sons fief world's (Wasn't it also mentioned in the Wolf King)? Gives them plenty of things to be doing before Alaxxes, until the Scars make contact with them. We also have to consider that the contingents of the Sisters and Custodes will have been small (I don't recall their numbers being mentioned aside from Valdor being there). Their original purpose of going with the Wolves was to bring Magnus back, surely they'd only have gone in numbers to bring him back and act as a 'bodyguard', with the Wolves acting as a deterrent to stop rash actions from the Sons. They wouldn't have gone in numbers to tip the scale of an open engagement as Horus changed them once they were underway. 

 

The two years before Istvaan III doesn't make much sense, as the Retribution timeline has the razing of Prospero at 004-005.M31 with the Betrayal starting at 005-006.M31.

pg.28/29 HH Book 6: Retribution.

 

 

The two years change could be in reference to Mangus' message arriving two years earlier on Terra and it causing all the wide spread damage to the webway project and killing hundreds of psykers. Obviously this is all still conjecture until the revised ATS comes out and Inferno. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Their original purpose of going with the Wolves was to bring Magnus back, surely they'd only have gone in numbers to bring him back and act as a 'bodyguard', with the Wolves acting as a deterrent to stop rash actions from the Sons. They wouldn't have gone in numbers to tip the scale of an open engagement as Horus changed them once they were underway. 

 

By that logic Russ shouldn't have brought his Legion either, just one ship and a few dudes. Their entire point (especially the SoS) was to better the chances of the Wolves winning an open engagement. Even before the change of orders, Russ and co had no idea whether the Sons would resist, so they brought enough force to prevail if violence proved to be necessary. How many Custodes and Sisters were required for this? I don't know, but they were certainly there in significant numbers. Hell in my version of ATS, it's only the SoS and Custodes that seem to give the Sons any real trouble (until their own powers start screwing them over) the Wolves are little more than redshirt mooks.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

If i recall from Prospero Burns, Russ didnt actually want to launch an all out assualt on his brother.

 

He pleads through Kasper Hawser (whom they think is a Thousand Son sleeper agent) to get a message to Magnus to give himself up because once he issues the order there is no going back.

 

I cant wait to find out the dispositions and assets used by both sides! Very excited for the release of Inferno

[Marshal Rohr]

It's not that big a deal Magnus was at Prospero for a year. Guilliman and a chunk of the Ultras were hanging out at Saturn for a while before the Calth conjunction.

 

 

It's important to remember that the 4 years after Ullanor were spent in a lot of down time for most of the legions. Horus was made war master because the Crusade was pretty much over

[Kriegsmacht]

So if I have this right Magnus broke the ward seals under the palace 2 years before the Heresy which led to the Daemons spilling through and Russ razing Prospero. When did the webway gate finally get sealed? I thought that battle under the palace took place during the entire heresy...which would make that battle last 9 years?

[Atia]

So if I have this right Magnus broke the ward seals under the palace 2 years before the Heresy which led to the Daemons spilling through and Russ razing Prospero. When did the webway gate finally get sealed? I thought that battle under the palace took place during the entire heresy...which would make that battle last 9 years?

The Webway war is huge, yep. Basically a second frontline.

[Kol Saresk]

The Webway gate was sealed immediately after. The daemons never got through. Thag's what the Webway Wars were. They were the Expedition forces exploring the Webway having to be sealed in with the daemons in order to keep them from manifesting under the Palace.

 

Remember what A Thousand Son said, Magnus didn't just break the seals to the Palace, he broke open the Webway itself, allowing the daemons to bleed in and attack the Palace. By the time we reach the siege, the expedition forces will have been pushed back to the Webway Gate on Terra and that's when the majority(if not entirety) of the Adeptus Custodes are stuck trying to keep them from breaching through.

[Kriegsmacht]

Okay so the whole gate was buggered up not just the seals and the gate war was 9 years long. Gotcha.

[Atia]

 

 

and that's when the majority(if not entirety) of the Adeptus Custodes are stuck trying to keep them from breaching through. 

Aswell as the Sisters of Silence and a huge Mechanicum Force. 

 

Also, Chaos had more then daemons during the Siege - they also had Marines and Titans helping in the assault on the portal, hence it's literally the second front of the Heresy/Siege.

[Petitioner's City]

Well, do we really know what the Web way is anymore, until ADB's book is out? I mean, we can expect either big changes and/or cunning retcons - it's his first full-length book since Talon after all

[Kol Saresk]

The background has been pretty consistent on what the Webway is. The best way to think of it is a mine shaft in the warp. The tunnels crisscoss all over and terminate either at Webway Gates or chambers internal to the Webway that can house anything from the Black Library to a shipyard to even a city such as Commoragh. Something tells me that while we will see the most of the Webway we've seen since Andy Chambers' Dark Eldar series, it will be consistent with everything we've seen up until now. A D-B has been pretty vocal about the fact he likes the fluff as it is and only "retcons" when it is absolutely neccessary.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm inclined to agree with Kol on the subject of Webways, though I would like to point out that we recently got shown an example of a prototype to the Terran Throne and Webway. That example showed it to be indistinguishable to regular Warp travel, outside of the apparent safety of diving even deeper into the Warp instead of skimming it. Reference was made to the network Kol mentions, but the actual instance of its use had nothing to do with that network, so there are inconsistent portrayals to muddy the waters.

 

I highly doubt Wraight's version in Pathway to Heaven is what's going on in Terra though, simply because all previous descriptions liken it to more like a land war than space travel. Not to mention, it was a prototype that was only momentarily used by a Librarian who died in that use, so I would expect the Terran Throne to operate at least somewhat differently.

 

The time-shift is an expected change (though it doesn't feel like one, so perhaps I had ignored what was actually told and assumed what was more logical), but I'm still not happy with the way the Thousand Sons legion is now divided beyond Prospero. I preferred it more when Magnus was only disobedient when he felt the circumstances demanded his intervention.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but the intervening only when necessary was retconned in the paperback edition. So far the only detail I've noticed that's changed from the paperback to the hardback is the new numbers.

[Hergrmir]

As someone firmly in the Thousand Sons camp (despite my second painted marine being a Space Wolf) I have to say I'm awaiting Inferno with some trepidation. I can accept the timeline - Nikaea happened, Magnus returns to Prospero, Davin corrupts Horus, Magnus breaks the seals, the Emperor sends Russ to bring Magnus home for a time out, Horus convinces Russ to go in ready for war to the knife, and in the meantime Emperor is then throw into fighting a psychic war for the next two years while Horus plans Isstvan III.

 

Perhaps the Emperor decided to try a different tack with Magnus than he did with Lorgar, or perhaps he was just busy being a terrible father again.

 

But I think it cheapens not merely the Space Wolves in their martial capacity, but also the fall of the Thousand Sons. It goes from being this tragic moment in which they have to struggle with accepting fate or fighting it, because most of them don't have to make that decision.

 

Also, so the Wolves are presumably attacking other Prosperine fiefs in the two years leading up to Isstvaan. When do the Death Guard get in on this? I'm guessing sometime after Isstvaan III. Is there space for both of those legions also to come to blows in this process?

[Conn Eremon]

Yeah, but the intervening only when necessary was retconned in the paperback edition. So far the only detail I've noticed that's changed from the paperback to the hardback is the new numbers.

I did say "still." :p

 

Though to be honest, I don't remember the paperback saying 9/10ths of the XV Legion was absent Prospero. If it was there, I honestly missed it.

[Kol Saresk]

No, in my head I included that in the numbers. The paperback had it the whole Legion was there, just that the Legion was ten thousand. According to Laurie Goulding way back when, the idea was to change as little as possible. Which meant changing one line so it only said "out of those at Prospero", or finding every single reference to the Legion's numbers and trying to change them, without any knowledge of what Forgeworld wanted them to be at.

Black Library picked the path of least resistance and honestly, so would I.

I mean let's face it, how many Legions do we see routinely traveling solely as a single entity? None. Even the Wolves didn't operate as a single entity except when needed. And I'm not referring to the Watch Packs either.

The other thing is, yes the Emperor was occupied with the Golden Throne, but given the fact that Lorgar and the Word Bearers were being secret squirrel sneaky between Ullanor and Davin, it's painfully obvious the Emperor was still keeping an eye out. And that was with the parts of the Legion that didn't have Custodes babysitters.

It's also evidenced by the fact that the White Scars and Wolves both took precautions to hide the fact that they too were ignoring the Edict by claiming their psykers' titles held different responsibilities and thus were necessary positions.

So the excuse "The Emperor wouldn't have noticed an entire Legion sitting on its butt doesn't really fly. Especially when compared to after the Webway War started and the Emperor was able to play regicide with an astropath, keep an eye on Dorn and Malcador trying to assassinate Horus, talking to Corax, and then opening up his labs for Corax, all the while forcefully keeping a warp rift shut while directing countless troops in battle. So sorry, but that excuse is very........... "small picture", in my opinion.

So is it a great move? Probably not. Is it a logical move? Probably also, yes.

[Petitioner's City]

The background has been pretty consistent on what the Webway is. The best way to think of it is a mine shaft in the warp. The tunnels crisscoss all over and terminate either at Webway Gates or chambers internal to the Webway that can house anything from the Black Library to a shipyard to even a city such as Commoragh. Something tells me that while we will see the most of the Webway we've seen since Andy Chambers' Dark Eldar series, it will be consistent with everything we've seen up until now. A D-B has been pretty vocal about the fact he likes the fluff as it is and only "retcons" when it is absolutely neccessary.

 

Kol I know the fluff pretty well, and indeed Talon used the webway interestingly (I've been reading things since the 90s)! But I think what actually is happening in the 'webway war' or whatever under Terra is seen as worthy of a novel by one of BL's most intellectual, nuanced and indeed revisionist of authors. Thus what I'm advocating is to not assume anything until it is print. Who would have predicted the exhausting and playful and indeed revisionist revision of the narrative from codices (fed into things like this wikia articles) to this. 

[Kol Saresk]

To be fair, I never said you didn't know the background. However, if that was the impression you received, then I apologize.

 

That said, I was merely pointing out that the fluff has been rather consistent on what the Webway is. I provided the analogy simply to showcase what the current idea is. Now, having heard some of the mentions of an experimental Golden Throne from Path of Heavens in this thread and it showcasing a radical view of the Webway, and drawing on the older material mentioning that the Emperor wanted to create a man-made Webway, I'd imagine that the "new revised view" wasn't a revision, but rather a revelation into the Emperor's experiments. That it wasn't just an experimental Golden Throne, but one of the Emperor's attempts to also create his Webway passage. And, I'd imagine that since the whole point of the book is that the Scars had to stop a daemonic incursion because the passageway was just open to the warp, the experiment was a failure and the Emperor simply used it to improve the Golden Throne Mk II while choosing to simply build upon the Webway that already existed, thus necessitating the need for expeditions to map the Webway, an effort which would eventually result in the Atlas Infernal.

 

But speaking as someone who is relatively newer to the background(came in right after 4th Edition launched), many of my observations tend to be hindsight, rather than "experience". That's why I can point out that many of A D-B's "revisions", are not revisions at all; they are taking tiny little one-liners and then giving us a total background summary of why that one-liner existed.

 

Take the Black Legion for example. I'm guessing you believe that it is no longer true the Black Legion is created from the Sons of Horus that Abaddon had with him when he destroyed Horus' clone? I'd say you're wrong.It is still a true statement. There were Sons of Horus there and they outnumbered the two Thousand Sons, one Emperor's Child, and one World Eater. The only thing they didn't outnumber were the Rubricae IIRC but those poor sods don't really get a choice in most matters.

 

But regardless, it is still a true statement. But it is a half-truth. The whole truth would be that the Black Legion was created from the Sons of Horus fighting with Abaddon, as well as the World Eater, Thousand Sons, Rubricae, and Emperor's Child that were allied with him. And actually, that isn't even the whole truth since the Black Legion was still not created when Khayon recruited the Tizcan swordsmith. So there could be even more Legions that eventually join the mix. Possibly even some Renegades.

 

But the reason A D-B gave us such a varied beginning wasn't to "revise" the background; it was to explain it. I mean seriously, did no one ever wonder why the Black Legion has a history of recruiting and accepting volunteers from the other warbands of Chaos Space Marines? It wasn't about numbers. At least, not entirely. What Talon of Horus shows us is that the practice existed because it was one of the founding principles of the Black Legion. It wasn't a revision. It was an explanation of a piece of the background that no one had bothered to ask "why?" about.

 

So in my personal opinion, if you're expecting Emperor of Mankind to drastically change the background itself, I think you'll be disappointed. That said, as you have pointed out, we'll have to wait until the book drops to see what happens.

[Combat_Vet]

The majority of a Legion, Sisters, and Custodes (now, SoH and Titan support as well) against a relative handful of Thousand Sons and they were mauled enough to have to regroup. Then the Alphas show up and beat them so bad the run to the Dark Angels for help (after practically begging the White Scars). Russ lost to Leon and apparently his sons lose their "honor duels" as well, at least the ones we've been shown. Russ and his Legion lost to the World Eaters during the "Night of the Wolf".

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the Wolves will have any victories remaining by the time the series is complete.

 

Meanwhile, the Scars fight for years against several Legions forcing Horus' war effort to slow in an attempt to solidify his flank. They win against a combined force of the EC and the vast majority of the DG, after a protracted campaign and a semi-civil war.

 

Seems to me the retcons are market drivers. Too many SW armies being played and not enough WS. Rewrite the story to give the Wolves a nominal role in the war effort while making the Scars a driving force behind the quasi-victory the Emperor achieved.

 

We saw the same thing with the complete rewrite of the UM role in the war, did we not?