Apparent changes in the hardback volume of 'A Thousand Sons'

[Excessus]

How did this thread go from the Thousand Sons old book getting a few updates to get it in line with newer publications, to the Black Legion and White Scars? Offtopic much?

 

Personally I find it interesting that they take their time and go back to change a few things we already know have been updated in the lore...like legion numbers. It makes sense...

[Combat_Vet]

 

Seems to me the retcons are market drivers. Too many SW armies being played and not enough WS. Rewrite the story to give the Wolves a nominal role in the war effort while making the Scars a driving force behind the quasi-victory the Emperor achieved.

 

We saw the same thing with the complete rewrite of the UM role in the war, did we not?

 

It's breathtaking to me, sometimes, what people will assume on the flimsiest, weirdest evidence. (And what several Space Wolf fans will click Like on.)

 

How could that be true? Why would it be true? What possible gain is there? The mind boggles.

 

 

Please don't take my words the wrong way. I see what I see and I may be wrong (stranger things have happened).

 

The "fluff" is a leading driver in why many choose their Chapter/Legion when they first get into the game. Many will choose later to build other armies based on gaming style, army strengths, additional fluff, or simply a desire to paint another color. You yourself are the main reason I left the Wolves (something I said I would never do) because you brought such life into the Night Lords that I wanted to build a force based on your work.

 

Fluff matters. It matters to new players, it matters to old players, it matters to Wolves, and it matter to those not fortunate enough to hear the call of Russ :)

 

What the 37(ish) books of the Horus Heresy have done is rendered the Wolves down from braggarts that got a job done, to simple braggarts. Loss after loss and even their victories (if Prospero can be called a victory) are rendered hollow.

 

However, at the same time we see other Legions getting their backstory filled with victory after victory. Against insurmountable odds and in the face of defeat, they still hold strong and carry the day. Not so the Wolves. A small force at Prospero fights them to a pyrrhic victory, and then the are forced to flee from the Alpha Legion (into the arms of the Dark Angels).

 

Can you honestly say the new fluff is going to bring in new Wolf players? The established players are here and addicted to their hobby, so GW and BL have no fear of losing them (other than some online grumbling). The new fluff could be very well lead to new players choosing Legions that have seen little love over the decades. It is a good thing on many levels, as variety makes the game better for everyone. But, as I said, there is no reason to destroy on myth to build another.

 

All fluff is a market driver in my eyes. Why else would so much money be spent if not on secondary (primary) advertising for the very game the fluff expounds upon? 

[A D-B]

 

 

Seems to me the retcons are market drivers. Too many SW armies being played and not enough WS. Rewrite the story to give the Wolves a nominal role in the war effort while making the Scars a driving force behind the quasi-victory the Emperor achieved.

 

We saw the same thing with the complete rewrite of the UM role in the war, did we not?

 

It's breathtaking to me, sometimes, what people will assume on the flimsiest, weirdest evidence. (And what several Space Wolf fans will click Like on.)

 

How could that be true? Why would it be true? What possible gain is there? The mind boggles.

 

 

Please don't take my words the wrong way. I see what I see and I may be wrong (stranger things have happened).

 

--Snip--

 

 

On the same note, please don't take my tone and cracks about conspiracy theories as combative. That's not my intent - and if it comes across that way, I'm totes malotes sorry. 

 

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree with most of it. Pretty much all of it, with the clarifications, all said and told. That said - you just know the Forge World books will make the Wolves shine (coupled with an HH range that's extremely likely to be among the best-sculpted range ever, given the Legion's popularity...) and there's still a while yet for the Wolves to get some more victories.

[Balthamal]

Seems to me the retcons are market drivers. Too many SW armies being played and not enough WS. Rewrite the story to give the Wolves a nominal role in the war effort while making the Scars a driving force behind the quasi-victory the Emperor achieved.

We saw the same thing with the complete rewrite of the UM role in the war, did we not?

It's breathtaking to me, sometimes, what people will assume on the flimsiest, weirdest evidence. (And what several Space Wolf fans will click Like on.)

How could that be true? Why would it be true? What possible gain is there? The mind boggles.

Please don't take my words the wrong way. I see what I see and I may be wrong (stranger things have happened).

The "fluff" is a leading driver in why many choose their Chapter/Legion when they first get into the game. Many will choose later to build other armies based on gaming style, army strengths, additional fluff, or simply a desire to paint another color. You yourself are the main reason I left the Wolves (something I said I would never do) because you brought such life into the Night Lords that I wanted to build a force based on your work.

Fluff matters. It matters to new players, it matters to old players, it matters to Wolves, and it matter to those not fortunate enough to hear the call of Russ

What the 37(ish) books of the Horus Heresy have done is rendered the Wolves down from braggarts that got a job done, to simple braggarts. Loss after loss and even their victories (if Prospero can be called a victory) are rendered hollow.

However, at the same time we see other Legions getting their backstory filled with victory after victory. Against insurmountable odds and in the face of defeat, they still hold strong and carry the day. Not so the Wolves. A small force at Prospero fights them to a pyrrhic victory, and then the are forced to flee from the Alpha Legion (into the arms of the Dark Angels).

Can you honestly say the new fluff is going to bring in new Wolf players? The established players are here and addicted to their hobby, so GW and BL have no fear of losing them (other than some online grumbling). The new fluff could be very well lead to new players choosing Legions that have seen little love over the decades. It is a good thing on many levels, as variety makes the game better for everyone. But, as I said, there is no reason to destroy on myth to build another.

All fluff is a market driver in my eyes. Why else would so much money be spent if not on secondary (primary) advertising for the very game the fluff expounds upon?

I suppose the blunt response would be something along the lines of "Boohoo so your precious little Wolves aren't special snowflakes anymore and now ordinary like the other 17 Legions and the die hards don't like it" but that doesn't really address the issue and only incites nerd rage/insults/bans and other unsavory things that have no place here. So, instead, a proper discussion.

I don't mean this in a confrontational way, so please don't take it as such, but from the points you're making above, it comes across as saying that the existing VI Legion fanbase was based on them winning all the time and being awesome. I'm certain that's not the intention but that's how it's getting perceived, if the general reaction across several boards is anything to go by. So what if the Wolves lose? You say about other Legions. When have the Night Lords won? The only significant victory written about is the Dropsite Massacre and that was with the element of surprise and overwhelming odds. The Salamanders have had terrible portrayals in the BL series. Someone always has to lose in fiction because there's no story otherwise. The Sons of Horus might have been awesome all the way through the Heresy but then comes Terra and the Legion Wars and they're where exactly now? There has to be a downside. Hell when all is said and done the Wolves are the ONLY Legion to storm another homeworld. That's massive on it's own right there. So there were other parties present? And? Unless there was a hundred thousand of them they aren't making a difference.

It seems to me, at least from the sentiment that's around this, is that the core of the problem is going from "winning" to not always "winning" and that any fans buying into this are somehow lesser? I confess I don't understand why there is a perception that simply because there's additional elements added that the Wolves have been lessened? How do you think the Ultramarines players feel having gone from simply out of the way of the fighting to being tricked and butchered instead? Or from taking a massive step down from the 40K love in with them to the 30K "you're good, but hardly the very best of the best" And this is over something that hasn't really been clarified.

I love how you guys are so passionate about the hobby and everything but really, I can't get my head around why something relatively minor has been allowed to fester and explode into such negativity

[Baluc]

Balthamal

 

What I think you are missing is how many Wolves fans felt about Prospero. I don't think many if any count it as a victory, it was a crap job given to the Wolves because apparently their "thing" is the noble savage. The ones who will blacken their name, and soul to do whatever their father asks. No questions asked, not for honour or glory just because they were asked to do it. Prospero isn't and never was victory, it cost the wolves dearly and much more than manpower. They could never go back to being the legion they were and you can see permutations of that battle with all Imperial institutions 10k years later. It is their istavann III, their Iron Cage, etc. The whole of Prospero burns describes their fear of maleficarum, the story even opens up with a mortal version of the Razing of Prospero to show you how the fear is deep in the very nature of the mortals they ascend from.

 

If it is changed so that the majority of the Thousand Sons are off world it defeats the harrowing nature of the attack where the costs are a physical representation of the damage done to the very core of the legion, as well as the confirmation of their core beliefs. And, makes it a trivial, reactionary act by ignorant masses huddling around Prometheus' flame. Because of the enormity of legion on legion warfare years before Istavann V it all seems so trivial, especially when you look at how it leaves the legion adrift for years during the actual heresy, as they move from defeat to defeat. It doesn't help that there is so little about the wolves during the crusade from which to draw inspiration and motivation. Inferno might help this, but you must be able to see that after nearly a decade of heresy and what 5-6 years of Inferno being pushed back patience, and trust would be low. 

[Runefyre]

Well, most Ultramarine players (myself included) wanted them to be "nerfed". I hated them being the "best of the best". A faction without flaws is stale. And at Calth the Ultras were the ones getting surprised, unlike the Wolves who were the ones getting the drop on the Sons (because of Magnus).

 

Plus I think this conversation seems to have expanded beyond Sons numbers being changed, it seems to have evolved into discussing the Wolves portrayal as a whole in 30k.

[Atia]

The Webway gate was sealed immediately after. The daemons never got through. Thag's what the Webway Wars were. They were the Expedition forces exploring the Webway having to be sealed in with the daemons in order to keep them from manifesting under the Palace.

Small correction for clarity: They were sent in, rather than sealed in. Sealing them in would've been a bit of a low-cost operation, since they're not just there to cleanse the Webway, they're also there to make sure nothing gets past them and into the throne room. The Emperor wants to do everything he can to make sure he doesn't have to seal the gate, which is why he sends in his bestest boys and girls.

I'm really hyped for a Sisters of Silence armylist for the SoT/Webway-war books once FW reaches it

[Runefyre]

I'm really hyped for a Sisters of Silence army list for the SoT/Webway-war books once FW reaches it

Yeah, and they're gonna have some bamf models to (if Prospero Burns' cover is anything to judge by).

[Balthamal]

Balthamal

 

What I think you are missing is how many Wolves fans felt about Prospero. I don't think many if any count it as a victory, it was a crap job given to the Wolves because apparently their "thing" is the noble savage. The ones who will blacken their name, and soul to do whatever their father asks. No questions asked, not for honour or glory just because they were asked to do it. Prospero isn't and never was victory, it cost the wolves dearly and much more than manpower. They could never go back to being the legion they were and you can see permutations of that battle with all Imperial institutions 10k years later. It is their istavann III, their Iron Cage, etc. The whole of Prospero burns describes their fear of maleficarum, the story even opens up with a mortal version of the Razing of Prospero to show you how the fear is deep in the very nature of the mortals they ascend from.

 

If it is changed so that the majority of the Thousand Sons are off world it defeats the harrowing nature of the attack where the costs are a physical representation of the damage done to the very core of the legion, as well as the confirmation of their core beliefs. And, makes it a trivial, reactionary act by ignorant masses huddling around Prometheus' flame. Because of the enormity of legion on legion warfare years before Istavann V it all seems so trivial, especially when you look at how it leaves the legion adrift for years during the actual heresy, as they move from defeat to defeat. It doesn't help that there is so little about the wolves during the crusade from which to draw inspiration and motivation. Inferno might help this, but you must be able to see that after nearly a decade of heresy and what 5-6 years of Inferno being pushed back patience, and trust would be low. 

 

Good points and well reasoned out.

 

Following that line of thought then, and assuming that a significant adjustment in numbers is made outside of the expected (as with the expected being a figure more in line with the size of the legions altered from previous fluff), If indeed it does make it in to Inferno and is made out to be a huge effect (all speculative at this point, not withstanding what's in A Thousand Sons) then if Prospero isn't a victory per say, and it's more about the consequential impact on the Legion, why is a change of numbers important? Whether there were a hundred of the XV Legion on Prospero or a hundred thousand; the actions were still the same, the motivation was still the same and the aftermath would be the same. On a smaller scale maybe in terms of the physical losses true but likely more profound mentally. I'd even argue that if anything it would be even worse mentally afterwards; not only is a dirty job that can't be derived any pleasure from, if it's against a vastly weakened force that would make it worse but that's personal preference. 

 

I'd expect plenty to come to light of the Wolves during the crusade since Russ was the second Primarch recovered - lot of time to be out on Crusade. And yes I can certainly understand the frustration with Inferno being bumped backwards for 3 volumes and 2 years. But as I first said when it happened and the first "FW don't like the Wolves" mutters sprang up, I defy anyone to accept a substandard end result for the sake of having it quicker. Especially when there's 3 Legions still waiting for that treatment - yes I know that they have rules and can be used right now but whilst it's a decent stop gap, would anyone really take that over the chance for the full monty? As for the trust issue, all I can say is that's down to individual bias. I mean if you like everything that's come before yet when it comes down to the faction you want most the only question I would ask is, why? 

[Sandlemad]

Balthamal

 

 It doesn't help that there is so little about the wolves during the crusade from which to draw inspiration and motivation. Inferno might help this, but you must be able to see that after nearly a decade of heresy and what 5-6 years of Inferno being pushed back patience, and trust would be low. 

 

I really like your reasoning about the wound to the SW's culture that was Prospero but surely what I have quoted above applies equally, if not more so, to the Thousand Sons? Their FW models and coverage have been just as pushed back as the SW and some of their only great crusade campaigns we know about also involved the wolves. Even in 40k there's a lot less useful crossover of kits for modeling.

 

Prospero was unequivocally a massive defeat for them, they've received less BL attention, there's not been a single victory (or single battle, even) attributed to them during the heresy, yet I have not seen any bitterness on the part of 30k TS fans. It's striking.

[Marshal Rohr]

If you're hoping for FW to provide an in depth anthropological study on Fenris you'll be disappointed. Even Tempest, which provided fluff for one new legion had the same amount of explanation as the other books with four in them.

[Kol Saresk]

Here's my thing. Nobody had a problem with the Wolves numbering hundreds of thousands while the Sons only number ten thousand, when the whole of the XV Legion only numbered ten thousand. For whatever reasons, everyone was okay with it.

 

They were okay with Scars pointing out that in the three years since Prospero, the Wolves had gone from Prospero to hunting down other contingents of the Sons to hearing about the Heresy to trying to find the Scars and get them to join the Imperium and getting ambushed by the Alpha Legion.

 

Everyone was okay with it.

 

But then a hardback reprint points this information which has been out since 2010 and everybody loses their minds over it. There information has been there. I've literally been posting for the last year or so that Laurie Goulding said this was going to happen over on First Expedition. More than a few people who have problems now didn't have problems then.

 

So why all the fuss now when there was no fuss then?

 

@Petitioner's City: Where did I ever use the word "Legion"? If you want a summary of what I said since you obviously either didn't read, or misunderstood, here it is. What I said was is that as far as the Imperium is concerned, the Sons of Horus Legion did become the Black Legion. Because, as far as they know, in the beginning, the majority of the Black Legion, started out as Sons of Horus. I even pointed out the numbers that the forty Justaerin outnumbered the three Thousand Sons, one World Eater, and one Emperor's Child. And it really doesn't help that the Black Legion Supplement points out that Abaddon made a habit of getting other XVI Legion warbands to join the Black Legion, either willingly or by force.

 

So, in my opinion, my interpretation of the background, the line "The Sons of Horus became the Black Legion", is still true. But it is only a half-truth, not a whole truth. Because it is based on the Imperium's view of things.

 

Now, you can choose to see that as a complete and total rewrite of the background. That is your choice.

 

I don't. Because instead of discounting the old background just because the new background is different, I choose to see how the new background incorporates the old, because very rarely is it actually a "revision" or retcon. More often than not, the changes are explanations of one-liners that we blew off and since the explanations are completely different from our perceptions, we view them as "change" when they are actually "revelations".

 

But hey, to each their own.

[Baluc]

 

Balthamal

 

 It doesn't help that there is so little about the wolves during the crusade from which to draw inspiration and motivation. Inferno might help this, but you must be able to see that after nearly a decade of heresy and what 5-6 years of Inferno being pushed back patience, and trust would be low. 

 

I really like your reasoning about the wound to the SW's culture that was Prospero but surely what I have quoted above applies equally, if not more so, to the Thousand Sons? Their FW models and coverage have been just as pushed back as the SW and some of their only great crusade campaigns we know about also involved the wolves. Even in 40k there's a lot less useful crossover of kits for modeling.

 

Prospero was unequivocally a massive defeat for them, they've received less BL attention, there's not been a single victory (or single battle, even) attributed to them during the heresy, yet I have not seen any bitterness on the part of 30k TS fans. It's striking.

 

 

To be honest its probably a multi-fold issue. Thousand Sons have never really had much in terms of heresy background, dissatisfaction can comes from a place of privilege I suppose. There isn't a lot known about the TS leading to a smaller fan base, to less demand to less dissatisfaction. But the number change has even more effect on the TS themselves, if so much of the legion is alive, why are they not more active in the heresy? They literally just disappear from the fluff the majority of legion just gone the absence makes even larger holes than just retconing in the numbers more haphazardly. 

 

 

 

Balthamal

 

What I think you are missing is how many Wolves fans felt about Prospero. I don't think many if any count it as a victory, it was a crap job given to the Wolves because apparently their "thing" is the noble savage. The ones who will blacken their name, and soul to do whatever their father asks. No questions asked, not for honour or glory just because they were asked to do it. Prospero isn't and never was victory, it cost the wolves dearly and much more than manpower. They could never go back to being the legion they were and you can see permutations of that battle with all Imperial institutions 10k years later. It is their istavann III, their Iron Cage, etc. The whole of Prospero burns describes their fear of maleficarum, the story even opens up with a mortal version of the Razing of Prospero to show you how the fear is deep in the very nature of the mortals they ascend from.

 

If it is changed so that the majority of the Thousand Sons are off world it defeats the harrowing nature of the attack where the costs are a physical representation of the damage done to the very core of the legion, as well as the confirmation of their core beliefs. And, makes it a trivial, reactionary act by ignorant masses huddling around Prometheus' flame. Because of the enormity of legion on legion warfare years before Istavann V it all seems so trivial, especially when you look at how it leaves the legion adrift for years during the actual heresy, as they move from defeat to defeat. It doesn't help that there is so little about the wolves during the crusade from which to draw inspiration and motivation. Inferno might help this, but you must be able to see that after nearly a decade of heresy and what 5-6 years of Inferno being pushed back patience, and trust would be low. 

 

Good points and well reasoned out.

 

Following that line of thought then, and assuming that a significant adjustment in numbers is made outside of the expected (as with the expected being a figure more in line with the size of the legions altered from previous fluff), If indeed it does make it in to Inferno and is made out to be a huge effect (all speculative at this point, not withstanding what's in A Thousand Sons) then if Prospero isn't a victory per say, and it's more about the consequential impact on the Legion, why is a change of numbers important? Whether there were a hundred of the XV Legion on Prospero or a hundred thousand; the actions were still the same, the motivation was still the same and the aftermath would be the same. On a smaller scale maybe in terms of the physical losses true but likely more profound mentally. I'd even argue that if anything it would be even worse mentally afterwards; not only is a dirty job that can't be derived any pleasure from, if it's against a vastly weakened force that would make it worse but that's personal preference. 

 

I'd expect plenty to come to light of the Wolves during the crusade since Russ was the second Primarch recovered - lot of time to be out on Crusade. And yes I can certainly understand the frustration with Inferno being bumped backwards for 3 volumes and 2 years. But as I first said when it happened and the first "FW don't like the Wolves" mutters sprang up, I defy anyone to accept a substandard end result for the sake of having it quicker. Especially when there's 3 Legions still waiting for that treatment - yes I know that they have rules and can be used right now but whilst it's a decent stop gap, would anyone really take that over the chance for the full monty? As for the trust issue, all I can say is that's down to individual bias. I mean if you like everything that's come before yet when it comes down to the faction you want most the only question I would ask is, why? 

 

 

We need to stop thinking of Prospero in terms of win/loss. IF the majority of the TS legion is off world, presumably with their fleets, what have they left on Prospero besides a mortal defense force and their most rare bits of knowledge. Its a loss but its not unrecoverable, they were nominally loyal so being not loyal not a traitor and a drift is an angle that could be taken I suppose. One could argue that the breaking of their legion is as fundamental a part of their character and fundamental structure going forward as breaking them is of the Wolves. The outcast mystic, the broken Occult, paying a high price for their knowledge is their core troupe no?  By decreasing the the percentage "defeated" it decreases the actual effect of the actual tragedy. Its not a tragedy its just a loss, legions have suffered greater losses on the regular. Iron Warriors do it on a day to day basis. 

 

The 3 remaining legions have more individual coverage across the breadth of HH literature an understanding of their culture and a profound sense of self. Its not even about coverage per say, but how they are portrayed or even used as protagonists. I get that in the original background the Wolves seem oddly absent, and we don't have much info about the scouring. But if I'm honest I don't see what Horus feared so much? At this point the Wolves seem like water down, and less effective Son of Horus. The Wolves have been fighting the great crusade since what Day 2? I would expect more, and a better understanding of the relationships between big brother Russ and the other Primarchs at this late stage of the game. What I think bothers me most about the Salamanders, and Wolves in particular is we don't really know who they were, so the gravity of the Prospero and Istavaan V is a little lost on me to be honest. Vulkan comes across as willfully ignorant of the reality of crusade (but he's pragmatic?), and Russ we're told has something going on. Both legions have no why, Prospero was a why with a little w, but again if the actual gravity of the event is decreased it makes the reaction overblown. And, makes the decrease in the wolves operational abilities very stark given that Russ prefers to be outnumbered. So either we have the majority of two legions doing nothing in a galactic war, or two legions who have been mauled in a tragedy left adrift until circumstance forces them into action. Which is more compelling? 

[Leif Bearclaw]

It's not about being the 'the best'. It's a desire for parity with one's peers, which I'm just not feeling these days.

Without seeming to be baiting, why do you say they're lacking parity? Strictly with the BL novels for now but once Inferno is out I'm sure there'll be new angles to the debate. I mean from a neutral perspective, the Wolves certainly have it better than some others. The EC, Salamanders and NL would benefit from something more so the VI Legion are hardly lagging behind all others in that regard.

There's 2 elements really, exposure and quality of exposure. It's my opinion that the Wolves are at or close to the bottom of the pile on both factors, which puts them below what the other Legions have gotten. Also, I do consider both the FW and BL contributions, as both feed into the overall fluff.

Firstly exposure. The Wolves are amongst the Legions with the least screen time. A smattering of short stories (many of which seem to boil down to 'see how this Watch Pack gets shafted and killed') and the Wolf King novella are about it (unless there's stuff I'm missing). Prospero Burns is an odd one. It took me several attempts to get through, though when I did I consider it a pretty good read. However, it was totally not what I wanted or expected from the flip side of ATS. It wasn't really a Space Wolf story, it was Hawser's story. I wanted the mirror of ATS, properly showing the GC era VI, Nikea, the build up to Prospero and finally the burning itself (complete with a counterpoint to the finale in ATS, which reduced the Wolves to redshirt mooks, they never come across as a threat to the Sons, it always seems to be either the Custodes, SoS or their own powers that proved to be their undoing). What I got was 13th Warrior in space. Several of the Legions you mentioned (Ec and Sallies) have had multiple full length novels where they take centre stage, though they fall prey to the second point. Other Legions have also got the short end from the BL, true, like the Iron Hands. But these Legions tend to have FW be their saviours, getting awesome treatment in the FW books. Here the Iron Hands are a posterboy for FWs success, how many angered IH fans fled to the Heresy and FW's portrayal in the wake of Clan Raauken? And everything's been said before on the subject of Inferno's delay .

Secondly, there's quality of exposure. This is where Legions like the Sallies and RG fall down, as those novels don't exactly enjoy stellar reputations. In my experience The EC are a bit of a mixed bag, with rather varied opinions on Fulgrim and Angel Exterminatus.

However, on the the Wolves. Before the HH series kicked off, we knew a few things about the HH Wolves. They burned Prospero, which hurt, but they remained a viable and threatening force, even after further losses at Yarant and Alaxxes they were still enough of a force to (along with the DAs) force the final confrontation between Horus and the Emperor and went on to play a major role on the Scouring. Russ and the Khan were friends. According to some fluff (don't know if this bit from 2nd ed was repeated later) they were one of the smallest Legions. Russ and the Lion had some beef. Russ, Horus and the Lion were the three most successful Prmarchs. That's about it.

Then we look at what the new HH series has brought. The Wolves have had the biggest change in character of any Loyalist Legion (maybe even Legion period), for better or worse. The change to Nikea makes the Wolves hypocrites. Khan now hates Russ. Their good crusade performance is removed to make room for their new direction. The Wolves new 'executioner' shtick elicits a massive hatedom, and the nature of that (was it real, or just something the Wolves themselves made up) was a massive pain, possibly with no answer yet (I've heard conflicting things about Wolf King). Personally, I liked this change, as it means that sending Russ to Prospero makes sense, whereas before it just didn't, 'sending a guy with a axe to grind on a sesitive arrest and retrieve mission, what could possibly go wrong?'. What I don't like is how isolated and knackered it apparently makes them. No allies and low reserves of materiel, really? If they were acting in accordance with the Emperor's will, why weren't they tooled up (like the Minotaurs are in 40k)? Or if it was all in their heads, they're delusional braggarts (which of course I don't like). Hell, the Night Lords and World Eaters, two Legions skirting censure and removal, seem to be better supplied with allies, gear etc. than the Wolves. They basically strip away so much from how the Wolves had previously been portrayed (closer to their 40k incarnation), and all they give us to replace it is loyalty. Loyalty to destruction. Any mission, any enemy, the Wolves will do it. Then FW torpedo that with their inane 'all Legions had Traitor elements' alteration (one of the worst fluff decisions FW have made imo, but this isn't the thread for that can of worms ), even listing an entire Wolf GC (of which there were only 13 remember) as fighting for the Warmaster.

Then there's the changes to Prospero. What was once a straight slugging match between 2 Legions has got increasingly complicated, some for the better, some for the worse. The Custodes and SoS I'm OK with, it makes sense for them to be there and theoretically they shouldn't overshadow the principal conflict of Wolves vs Sons (ATS notwithstanding). However, everything else just seems engineered to detract from the Wolves. Why add Legio Mortis? To counter the Sons allied Titans/support troops you say? To which I respond with 'why don;t the Wolves have their own support elements, instead of relying on the Warmaster's?'. Then there's the changes and reveals in numbers. If the estimates of Wolf casualties that leaked recently are accurate, it's mad (and would contradict FW's own fluff to boot). It makes all the subsequent actions to counter the Wolves dubious, as they're a Shattered Legion in all but name, they shouldn't be able to significantly affect the major notes of the heresy, there' just not enough of them left. Then there's the Sons numbers, this very thread suggests that the company has taken the (imo) worst possible path for bringing ATS/PB in line with the expanded legion numbers. It completely belittles the achievement and tragedy of Prospero if only a rump of the XV was engaged. This was the seminal moment for the Sons, only now most of them weren't even there? All the . Then there's the Wolves, facing so few Sons makes an already dicey portrayal (thanks to how minimised the Wolves have been in what Prospero material we've had thus far) a flat out humiliation for the Wolves. With so much support and such a numeric advantage, that's the best they could manage? Pyrrhic doesn't even cut it, as I can't recall an actual pyrrhic victory this bad for the 'winners'. Then there's the addition of the SoH. This may be nothing, but again it fosters the fear that here's another group in what's meant to be the Wolves' spotlight, again potentially relegating the Wolves to background actors in 'their moment'.

Then we have Alaxxes, which presents some of the stuff I mentioned earlier (Prospero wasn't a fleet action, so why's the Wolves fleet in such a bad state?), and compounds the almost 'damseling' of the Wolves. There's already some of that left over from Prospero (only succeeded because of the Custodes/SoS, potentially getting worse with the addition of more players), but Alaxxes doubles down on it, with the rescue by the DAs. Did the BAs need rescuing at Signus? The Ultras at Calth? The DAs were able to turn the tables on the NLs on their own. So why are the Wolves only successful thanks to help from a forgotten detachment of DAs? I hope you can see how this builds a perception that the Wolves aren't allowed their own victories.

Overall, yes other Legions have gotten the short end of the stick. But, either from FW or BL, they've had their victories, triumphs and positive portrayals as well. They all have something that makes them special. I don't think the same can really be said for the Wolves at this juncture, they've taken the special out of the VI, but have replaced it with hypocrisy, being overshadowed and failure, instead of new and different special. I hope this will change, Inferno will live up to the hype and none of my doomsaying will come to pass. But recent events have certainly shaken my confidence.

Sorry for the wall of text . Hope I've shed some light on my thought process here.

[Flint13]

Alright folks, have fun and make merry.

 

^_^

[Dantay VI]

It isn't just the renumbering of Prospero.

 

I just think for many it is the straw which broke the camels back.

 

I admit to getting a bit... Rabid in my defence of the Wolves as I am one of those superfans.

 

Its other ret-cons such as the Wolves were 3rd behind SoH & DA's for bringing planets into compliance.. Now they made relatively few worlds compliant compared to other legions.

 

I admit it does hurt a bit when it appears that we needed reinforcement to fight a smaller legion who were unaware of the Wolves coming, who were on a plane with one habitable city. To find it may have been only a small fraction of the legion.

 

If rumours are to be believed.

 

However looking at the stories to date, (and I have read almost all of them) the Wolves have hardly been covered with glory. I am at the point of wondering why I should even bother to try and et excited over inferno from a Space Wolf perspective. Rewriting the numbers in the T-Sons favour just further reinforces that feeling of complete apathy from me.

 

Apart from mock Vikings and getting drunk, brawling and losing. What identity have the Space Wolves been left with by BL?

[Runefyre]

It gets even more depressing if you compare Space Wolves treatment in Wolf King (which is overall a pretty good read, if you're longsuffering) to the treatment White Scars get in Path to Heaven. It just doesn't compare.

One thing that is kind of underrated I think is the fact that our Primarch is still one of the strongest. Russ did as good as any other primarch could hope against Angron (which isn't much, considering Angron's all encompassing martial prowess ) and managed to nearly beat the second strongest psyker in the imperium. I also entertain the possibility Russ could have beaten Horus (in Vengeful Spirit given the chance).

But regardless that I trust the Wolves will get proper treatment eventually. I'm hoping FW is going for a Dark before Dawn type story. Plus It's not like the fluff is particularly kind to Tsons either (apart from making Magnus the resident overpowered know-it-all).

[Flint13]

Eh, I wouldn't compare Russ to Angron, that always ends poorly.

 

It's like comparing the Lion and Gulliman at empire building. The Lion is pretty good at it, but it's Gulliman's entire deal.

 

Combat isn't Russ's entire being. Angron is the fighty-est Primarch. However he's not one of the strongest Primarchs for anything outside of physical strength or  combat prowess. Russ is much more well rounded than Angron, arguably a better warlord, and that's from a huge World Eater fangirl.

 

Just don't expect him to take Dad in a fight :lol: 

[Runefyre]

I thought I noted Angron's capabilities sufficiently, guess not. Edited for better representation .

And no, I've never thought for a second that Russ (or anyone for that matter) could take Angron in a 1v1 (if legion tactics get involved though....we know how that would end ).

[Sandlemad]

Apart from mock Vikings and getting drunk, brawling and losing. What identity have the Space Wolves been left with by BL?

But... everything. There's more to a legion's identity than a list of victories. Their deathworld origins and their unparalleled devotion to it, their genetic heritage and the semi-beastliness, their all-out way of war, their jarls and thegns and the way they over-wrote the Terran legion organisation, their unshakeable and borderline obnoxious self-confidence, the weird creepy wolf-things that dwell below the Fang, Russ being an elemental force in combat... I could go on, and that doesn't even touch on their visual distinctiveness, which is surely the furthest from 'imperial standard' among the legions (that knotwork, dude!).

Their whole attitude, culture and identity is so unique. Take this passage from Wolf King.

The differences between this and his own Legion intrigued him. The smells were almost overpowering – a mix of ash and animal, thick as smog. The VI Legion seemed to care little for the fitting of their vessels, though every so often they would surprise him – an intricately carved stone, standing alone in the shadows, covered in traced outlines of mythical beasts; or weapons of exquisite artistry, hanging on chains over granite altars.

When I read it, that piece just grabbed me and reminded me why I love the VI legion. Reeling off a list of their 'big wins' to compare with others is small change, by comparison.

EDIT: @ Runefyre: I really enjoyed that in Vengeful Spirit. Not out of any 'which primarch can beat up which primarch' but because Russ fully believed he had a shot at beating Horus and that he had a duty to take it. Same with Angron. On Isstvaan Corax thinks about the odds and what best to do, but Russ just went for it. He was Angron's older brother and damnit, he was going to take it upon himself to bring him back into the fold, one way or another.

Like when he spoke in Lorgar's favour or tried to offer Magnus the chance to surrender (possibly going against Horus's orders?). Quite sentimental about his brothers and if that means giving them a few knocks round the head, so be it.

[Dantay VI]

I know the knotwork :)

 

My SW vehicles are covered in it.

 

The passage from Wolf King is evocative, not gonna lie.

 

I did find it interesting that considering the Norse heritage and the seagoing nature of the Fenrisians, that they cared so little for their ships on the sea of stars and were said to have little skill in using their ships except for direct assault.

 

And not having any major victories to reel off. Makes their self confidence either over-weening arrogance, or desperation to be seen as better than they are.

 

So for their motto is as well being: Look cool and die trying.

 

There doesn't have to be a list of victories, but beside the dubious victory  against the World Eaters and Wolf at the done, name me one major victory in 30K for the Wolves?

 

Prospero, Pyrrhic at best, Dulan. DA's got the job done while the Wolves got their flank chopped up, Alaaxes saved by the DA's from Hydra, sorry Alpha Legion

[Sandlemad]

I know the knotwork

My SW vehicles are covered in it.

The passage from Wolf King is evocative, not gonna lie.

I did find it interesting that considering the Norse heritage and the seagoing nature of the Fenrisians, that they cared so little for their ships on the sea of stars and were said to have little skill in using their ships except for direct assault.

And not having any major victories to reel off. Makes their self confidence either over-weening arrogance, or desperation to be seen as better than they are.

So for their motto is as well being: Look cool and die trying.

There doesn't have to be a list of victories, but beside the dubious victory against the World Eaters and Wolf at the done, name me one major victory in 30K for the Wolves?

Prospero, Pyrrhic at best, Dulan. DA's got the job done while the Wolves got their flank chopped up, Alaaxes saved by the DA's from Hydra, sorry Alpha Legion

Well, that's why I brought it up, it really looks the part! Clearly there's something more to the wolves (and every legion) that attracts fans and keeps them interested than having a victory roll. A battle can be a great insight into the legion's soul and make for an interesting story without that legion winning single-handedly.

As to their self-confidence, that doesn't have to come from glorious accolades. They're not the Sons of Horus. "We have broken ourselves on the altar stone of my father’s will, and we were glad to do it, for it cemented our place by his side." says Lord Gunn, and a lot of what they say in Prospero Burns expresses their bloody pride in doing the dirty jobs. They're not desperate to seem better than they are, they know what they've done and don't need to prove it to anyone. (Which Russ reflects on after Alaxxes).

On your last point, I can't point you to such a victory but then I can't point you to a single one for the Thousand Sons either. Before FW and BL gave them coverage very recently, I couldn't point to any for the Iron Hands, Salamanders or Raven Guard. But this doesn't seem to be an obstacle for fans of those legions.

[Flint13]

I thought I noted Angron's capabilities sufficiently, guess not. Edited for better representation .

And no, I've never thought for a second that Russ (or anyone for that matter) could take Angron in a 1v1 (if legion tactics get involved though....we know how that would end ).

Nah, you did just fine.

I just thought it was an odd comparison ^_^

[Dantay VI]

Sandlemad, you make good point.

 

I respect your viewpoints

 

The legions who did not have any and still had fans, have now been given victories, it just seems the Wolves are there to have the victories already won taken away from them.

 

I think I am going to stop now, as I do not want to derail the thread more than I have done.

[Sandlemad]

It may be that we we can have a clearer conversation about Prospero's importance to the VI legion towards the end of the year, when Inferno is released. Hopefully both the TS and SW will receive some more detailed GC-era background.

 

Does anyone know if other hardbacks have received any kinds of changes besides adjusting legion numbers?