Apparent changes in the hardback volume of 'A Thousand Sons'

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

The Webway gate was sealed immediately after. The daemons never got through. Thag's what the Webway Wars were. They were the Expedition forces exploring the Webway having to be sealed in with the daemons in order to keep them from manifesting under the Palace.

Small correction for clarity: They were sent in, rather than sealed in. Sealing them in would've been a bit of a low-cost operation, since they're not just there to cleanse the Webway, they're also there to make sure nothing gets past them and into the throne room. The Emperor wants to do everything he can to make sure he doesn't have to seal the gate, which is why he sends in his bestest boys and girls.

I'm really hyped for a Sisters of Silence armylist for the SoT/Webway-war books once FW reaches it

Considering the variety of units on display for the Sisters of Silence in Collected Visions, I think FW would be hard pressed to justify not giving them a full list

I mean - look at all the stuff just from Sam Wood's Agents of the Emperor artwork (those Iron Lynx Prosecutors are just too awesome):

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2055/sos_assault.png

http://cdn.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ExcrutiatusExtractionSquad.png

[Runefyre]

Those pictures are absolutely sick! Especially the second one. Also does that lynx have a melta-gun in his mouth?

[Jareddm]

It may be that we we can have a clearer conversation about Prospero's importance to the VI legion towards the end of the year, when Inferno is released. Hopefully both the TS and SW will receive some more detailed GC-era background.

Does anyone know if other hardbacks have received any kinds of changes besides adjusting legion numbers?

If I recall Laurie Goulding, the answer is every single one of them. The only ones I can check are the first three because I only do the trade paperbacks, but off the top of my head, in Galaxy in Flames, it is originally mentioned that the Emperor's Children's primary symbol was the eagle. In the TPB it is changed to the Palatine Aquila. I know that there are others but that one stood out to me.

Man, what I would do to have a changelog of the HH hardbacks

[Excessus]

The legions who did not have any and still had fans, have now been given victories, it just seems the Wolves are there to have the victories already won taken away from them.

Let's wait for Inferno. It's not like the Thousand Sons have any victories either.

[helterskelter]

Do not discount the destruction of the furious abyss. There was a Thousand Son there and he did his duty gosh dern it!

[Vesper]

I have always been under the impression that the Thousand Sons weren't broken out of Prospero. It was a defeat, and a big one at that, losing their homeworld and leaving most of their dominion defenseless, having a  number of top ranking figures killed, Magnus being defeated in combat along with his "betrayal" of his own sons exposed.

But I always felt it wasn't critical ; Legions are tough as nails and hard to break. See the Shattered Legions, the Sons of Horus' demise, taking the might of most traitors Legions for years to put them on the brink of extinction... With their fleet just fine and their numbers not too dramatically low, the Thousand Sons were still kicking. What litterally killed them was the flesh change and the Rubric. That's where the tragedy of the Thousand Sons lie.

[Baluc]

I have always been under the impression that the Thousand Sons weren't broken out of Prospero. It was a defeat, and a big one at that, losing their homeworld and leaving most of their dominion defenseless, having a  number of top ranking figures killed, Magnus being defeated in combat along with his "betrayal" of his own sons exposed.

But I always felt it wasn't critical ; Legions are tough as nails and hard to break. See the Shattered Legions, the Sons of Horus' demise, taking the might of most traitors Legions for years to put them on the brink of extinction... With their fleet just fine and their numbers not too dramatically low, the Thousand Sons were still kicking. What litterally killed them was the flesh change and the Rubric. That's where the tragedy of the Thousand Sons lie.

 

I would argue that their were only a few legions actually broken. Iron Hand, and Thousand Sons.. Their core identity being stripped away. These are hyper developed beings destroying them is extremely difficult we've seen what it takes just to destroy 1 chapter. Its why I dislike the Shattered Legions catch all. The Raven Guard and Salamanders didn't stop being who they were, they just didn't have the man power to operate as a legion. But the Raven Gaurd and Salamander Captains still warred as they were taught by their Primarchs, they still thought in mostly the same ways. Kin strife just changed their context. That being said, I don't actually like how the Salamanders are portrayed, or perhaps it is just a lack of development because I don't understand how they operated as a legion to begin with.

[Hergrmir]

I'm glad tempers have calmed a bit, because I think there are at least interesting conversations to be had about some of this stuff.

 

I think it's fair to say there just hasn't been much written about famous battles of the Sons or the Wolves so far in FW/BL stuff outside of Prospero, so that particular punch-up takes on the most importance. Magnus' internal thoughts have turned up here and there, as have Russ's, and side-stories have developed with Arvida and Bjorn and the watch packs. As an aside, I think part of what drives this evergreen internet conflict is that we still don't know what's actually true of the Space Wolves. ARE the shamanistic traditions of Fenris somehow pure of warpcraft? Are the watch packs really more incorruptible than squads from other legionaries? One could do engaging stories with either yes or no as the answer to those questions. For me though, how it's been handled an example to me of something where there are a lot of plot hooks and intriguing mysteries left for the audience, but not enough actually given to connect the dots. So instead of giving rise to interesting ideas, it boils down (so far) to just a 'yes they are/no they aren't' binary and you fall on one side or the other (or you just don't care at all). Chris Wraight did superlative work with Scars and Path of Heaven, and ADB did that for 40k Night Lords, so I'd like to see a full novel that sees the Wolves actually reflecting on themselves.

 

That being said, I think the claims made about Alaxxes and the Wolves running to the Dark Angels for help are overblown - we haven't seen where that thread with the Dark Angels goes yet. To my mind, that the Space Wolves are in such a funk is actually interesting, because if they weren't pensive after committing an act of such import as the razing of Prospero, they'd just be the blowhards they're sometimes accused of.

 

But for me the numbers thing keeps coming back to Magnus and the Thousand Sons themselves. We've had FAR less on them than anyone else, losing or winning or anything at all. I mean, yes, the shattered legions took a drubbing, but that's at least part of the plot and has been for ages. In my view Prospero SHOULD be an apocalyptic event, and while it still sucks, it goes from 'apocalypse' down to 'severe defeat' if such a vast majority of them are offworld doing other stuff (unless Inferno is going to make the whole thing a fief-wide conflict, which could work). And yes, sure, losing a homeworld would mark a Legion's soul, but the Thousand Sons were never before portrayed as being so blood and soil oriented as the Wolves or the Salamanders, say. Olympia and Nostramo are a bit different, since their Legions had already been twisted by then. So to reduce the numbers of Thousand Sons without a proportionate redress of the Space Wolves (and an account of what the rest of both legions were doing) cheapens both the tragedy of Thousand Sons and the strategic capacity of Leman Russ. But that said, it's exactly the sort of thing Inferno might take up, so I'm still pretty excited to see what it brings. Jumping to conclusions on this sort of thing seems premature.

 

As an aside, on the topic of the Raven Guard, I think not being broken after Isstvaan makes sense. Indeed, that they'd revert to Corax's own upbringing running a guerilla war makes sense. Unfortunately to my mind there's only one of the notable battles in the FW book that brings that out - Thorpe hasn't really focused on that element as much. As to the Salamanders, I think I'd say the same - paladin-y Humanity's Shield types could be portrayed in different ways, and I haven't been took keen on what's come out, but conceptually I still like the idea.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is the silliest thread ever. ADB is GoT to Black Library.

[RedwaKe]

Hergrmir post is full of wisdom and I totally agree with everything he said. Forge World is doing an incredible job with the heresy so far, lets just wait and see what they come up with. I think we can safely assume that Prospero will be more than the Wolves assaulting the Thousand Sons homeworld like in the old fluff; its been confirmed that they assault the forge world of Arkhadia too, lowering the number of Wolves present on Prospero by quite a bit already. Who knows, it might even be a full sector assault.

[Marshal Rohr]

This is the silliest thread ever. ADB is GoT to Black Library.

I'd like to think ADB is a little more subtle and nuanced than 'Do Me, Jaime' RR Martin.

[Terminus]

I have always been under the impression that the Thousand Sons weren't broken out of Prospero. It was a defeat, and a big one at that, losing their homeworld and leaving most of their dominion defenseless, having a  number of top ranking figures killed, Magnus being defeated in combat along with his "betrayal" of his own sons exposed.

But I always felt it wasn't critical ; Legions are tough as nails and hard to break. See the Shattered Legions, the Sons of Horus' demise, taking the might of most traitors Legions for years to put them on the brink of extinction... With their fleet just fine and their numbers not too dramatically low, the Thousand Sons were still kicking. What litterally killed them was the flesh change and the Rubric. That's where the tragedy of the Thousand Sons lie.

It certainly felt "broken" to many of their number.

 

 

 

As a point of parable it was often said that the Thousand Sons Legion died twice, but that is simply poetic delusion. Ahriman’s arrogant Rubric couldn’t kill us, for we were already dead. His failed salvation was nothing more than our funeral pyre. We died when the Wolves came. We died when our birth world burned. Prospero, consigned to ash with its shining capital, the seat of humanity’s knowledge: Tizca, the City of Light.

 

Regarding the Space Wolves' part in it,

 

 

 

The Black Legion has its own name for the Wolves. We call them Thulgarach, ‘the Deceived’. Some of us sneer the title, while others say it without mockery. The word itself places emphasis on the cunning of the deceiver, rather than foolishness of the deceived. The destruction of Prospero was Horus’s triumph, not the Wolves’.

[Biscuittzz]

The problem with the SW it seems to be is that they only have one angle: fighting and conquest. Compared to other legions such as Salamanders, Raven Guard and Ultramarines for example they seem to concern themselves with other less glorious stuff such as protection of innocents and worlds abandoned by the loyalists in general, and governance and empire-building in the UMs case. ( I understand SW are known for the former in the 40K universe citing the whole bust up with the Inquisition after Armageddon but I'm looking at the 30K universe specifically).

 

With this rewrite possibly taking away the only thing SW are practically renowned for, I can understand why fans are upset. Imagine rewriting/redoing some of the World Eaters fluff or battles.... They'd practically be obsolete.

 

Hopefully some of the future writing or Inferno may add to the SW repertoire and round them out a bit.

[Kol Saresk]

Eh, even in 40K the protection of innocents wasn't exactly their gimmick. The reason they protected the citizens of Armageddon was because that was part of the mission objectives and they didn't agree with someone surviving those kinds of horror only to be killed in the name of "censure". Going out of the way to protect as many innocents as possible has always been the gimmick of the Salamanders. That's why when they get involved in affairs like Badab or Armageddon, they choose to protect the rear echelons in favor of the "glory of fighting".

[Biscuittzz]

I'm not saying that it is their gimmick now in 40K. All I was trying to show is that at least in the 40K universe they have been written about in a way that is basically giving us a different attribute than being the Emperor's mad dog ( for want of a better word).

[Kol Saresk]

Except they have shown attribute in 30K as well. Take the short story "Wolf at the Door" by Mike Lee in the Tales of Heresy anthology. Story starts out with the Wolves saving non-Imperial humans from Dark Eldar, because their duty is to protect all humans from xenos. At the end of the story, they turn on the humans because they refused compliance. And bringing all of humanity into compliance is another of their duties.

 

They aren't mad dogs. They are just so intensely loyal that they occasionally jump the gun at the smallest perceived threat. Good intentions and all that.

[Biscuittzz]

I hadn't come across that story so i'll check it out, thanks.

Good intentions? Sounds like heresy to me

[Dantay VI]

It is a good story.

 

Shows the Wolves as quite professional, rather than beer swilling werewolves

[Baluc]

Eh, even in 40K the protection of innocents wasn't exactly their gimmick. The reason they protected the citizens of Armageddon was because that was part of the mission objectives and they didn't agree with someone surviving those kinds of horror only to be killed in the name of "censure". Going out of the way to protect as many innocents as possible has always been the gimmick of the Salamanders. That's why when they get involved in affairs like Badab or Armageddon, they choose to protect the rear echelons in favor of the "glory of fighting".

 

Yeah Biscuittzz has the way of it. The bust up with the Inquisition is more about the warriors of Armageddon earning the right to live and more important fight another day, rather than the wholesale slaughter of humans.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It was also written early in the Heresy, appearing in the first anthology, so I expect much will be changed

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Except they have shown attribute in 30K as well. Take the short story "Wolf at the Door" by Mike Lee in the Tales of Heresy anthology. Story starts out with the Wolves saving non-Imperial humans from Dark Eldar, because their duty is to protect all humans from xenos. At the end of the story, they turn on the humans because they refused compliance. And bringing all of humanity into compliance is another of their duties.

They aren't mad dogs. They are just so intensely loyal that they occasionally jump the gun at the smallest perceived threat. Good intentions and all that.

It could be the origin of the 13th Company.