A Challenge from the Great Enemy

[Pigshead]

Over the last couple of months I've tried the Lions Blade as a Double Demi Company, once against Orks, once against Iron Hands with Skittari allies, and once against Guard and Grey Knights allies. The game against Orks was a solid win, the game against the Iron Hands was close, but also a solid win, the game against the Guard/Knights was an embarrassment of poor tactical decisions, cards that refused to help and dice that must have been cursed, so we don't talk about that game. We DO, however, talk about the game the following week where the Ravenwing slaughtered the same Guard/Knights list to a man! Huzzah for the Ravenwing! Huzzah!

Ahem...

Sorry, I got carried away there. So anyway, on Tuesday evening, I met up with some friends, which included the Ork and the Iron Hands player, and a third player was there, he plays demons mostly, sometimes CSM, but demons when he wants to win. The guys told him about my nasty Double Demi and how I had been winning with it. He laughed, and said it was only because I had all those free transports that I won. Frankly, I sort of agree with him, but I couldn't take that laying down, and pointed out that he only wins with demons because of all the free summoned units he gets. The banter went back and forth, and ended with him throwing down the gauntlet to my double demi.

Now, thing is, each time I've used it so far, I've not given the other player any warning until just before the game, I've also added that "this won't be a regular thing, I just want to see how it does against your army" and then I go back to more fluffy lists. But this time, he knows in advance, he too has free units, and he has what has been described as "A god awful bucket full of evil demon nonsense". I have no idea what this means, or what units it entails, but I'm fully expecting that bucket to have wings.

So, I write this here, not as a cry for help, or a plea for aid in building my list, but rather to document the run up to this game, and then to maybe make a little batrep of what should be an awesome game.

Wish me luck, brothers. For the Lion! 

[Pigshead]

Ok, so first off all, this is the list i've used before, I'm probably going to tweak this a little for specific demon flavoured threats. But this is what I'm starting with.

Demi Company.

Chaplain - Jump Pack
Assault Squad - Jump Packs, Eviscerator, Vet Sarg with Power Fist
Devastators - Las Cannons, Razorback
Tactical Squad - Grav Cannon, Drop pod
Tactical Squad - Grav Cannon, Drop pod
Tactical Squad - Grav Cannon, Drop pod

Demi Company
Company Master - Artificer Armour, Mace of Redemption, Storm Shield

Assault Squad - Vet Sarg, Power sword, flamer
Command Squad - Apothecary, Sacred Standard, 4x grav guns, Razorback - twin linked assault cannon
Devastators - 4x Missile Launcher with Flakk, Razorback

Tactical Squad - Plasma Gun, Vet Sarg, Power Sword, Razorback - twin linked assault cannon

Tactical Squad - Melta Gun, Combi Melta, Razorback - Lasplas

Tactical Squad - Melta Gun, Combi Melta, Razorback - Lasplas

 

Command
Librarian - Conversion Field

Auxiliary

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 2x Attack Bike w/multi-melta, Landspeeder - Heavy Bolter, Typhoon missile launcher




So this list has been doing pretty well, but straight away I can see a few points where it needs altering for a demonic threat. There's a fair bit of melta/anti armour in there, that I'm not sure I will need as much, so I might alter the tactical squads loadouts. I normally sit the librarian with the devastators, but I'm thinking my opponent will totally dominate the psychic phase, and dispel everything I try, so I may just drop him altogether, and possibly the Ravenwing Attack Squadron, and see if I can squeeze out a few more points for a Ravenwing Support Squadron.

Also thinking about dropping the Grav Cannons, but he might take some CSM allies, and I can see some obliterators appearing, although in drop pods they could end up no where near any deep striking reserves... hmm... decisions. Might swap the command squads razorback for a drop pod, and maybe give one of the devastator squads razorbacks an upgrade.

[SnakeChisler]

Grav is not much use against daemons in general the FMC's however normally take 3+ Armour and spam Iron Arm

 

From the above suggested list I would go deathwind launchers on the Drop Pods, a lot of the unit upgrades such as the assault squad would be easier served with a dual flamer / combi flamer and in a pod these could be used to drop down and cull pink horrors. Pink horrors generate more psychic dice with greater numbers, your 1st aim in the game is to reduce the amount of Psychic dice as quickly as possible, dropping 2/3 models fro pink horror groups gives you an instant hit.  The Deathwind launchers will force him to divert his MC's to take care of the pods otherwise they will chip away at his rear units

 

The auxiliary would be better of as the Support Squad with dual HB's

 

If he takes the Screamer Star (2++ invun rerollable) then look out for the holder of the Grimoire of True Names and focus on it to try and remove the +2 to invun buff. The draft FAQ has said quite categorically that cursed earth does not stack.

 

He will roll for invisibility and will therefore have Psychic Shriek, also look out for Belekor who can take it automatically

 

Make sure you have an Auspex on both your characters it works against Flyers/FMC's so no roll to hit

 

look at Ezekiel as your Librarian a healthy dose of mind worm (it has ignores cover built in) will numb his appetite for getting close with MC's also 3D6 on instability checks can be a real winner, his warlord trait of fearless stops you having to take break/pinning checks on nearby units to ensure full overwatch.

 

If he has Dogs make sure they charge through difficult to nerf their initiative and your librarians force weapon will be handy, note if 1 model has to go through difficult the whole unit suffers the penalty.

 

Note - while you can summon another unit that unit cannot summon in the Psychic phase until the next turn see under Psychic Phase Conguration main BRB, I've seen this played wrongly a boat load of times and have had to inform a number of daemon players who should know better where it resides in the rule book

 

Good luck I normally have a really good game against Deamons

[Epher]

Sounds like you have an interesting game coming up!  I have a few questions, if you don't mind.  Are you using 5 man squads and what is the point limit?  How have the Grav Drop pods been working for you in the past?

 

There is not much that I can add to SnakeChisler's advice since I have not played against Daemons but I would probably swap out one of the dev squad heavies for some plasma cannons.  They have worked well for me in the past when faced with MEQs and lighter.  I am interested to see how this turns out.  Keep us posted and good luck!

[Tygwyn]

I have always relied on my 4 Plas Cannon Devs when battling my Brother-in-Law's Khorne Deamonkin. Camped up somewhere safe blasting all sorts to doom. Great at killing most things (less terminators and heavy vehicles), my best ever result with them was to rip a 10 man berserker squad off the board in one fell swoop. Awesome.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I don't have much experience against demons but if they are of the assault type maybe plasma cannons on dev squads are not optimal because they can't overwatch. Just some food for thought.

[Tygwyn]

True, maybe some bolter brothers for cover? Combi flamer on the sergeant? Heavy bolters might be just as useful (and cheaper!) but if we are headed there, then it's two in a Rhino!

[ronin_cse]

You really just want as much massed shooting as possible against a Daemon list. High strength weapons can be useful but low AP weapons are totally wasted since they all have at least a 5++ (could be better depending on the list). Maybe take a few heavy weapons to deal with MCs, but I would say in general you would get more from a heavy bolter than a plasma cannon since the ap2 is just about wasted. Definitely stay away from massing grav since you'll be wounding on 6s for the most part.

 

Edit: oh and flamers couldn't hurt either

[L30n1d4s]

Here is an idea that might be useful against Daemons for your army:

 

 

1 - Drop the Librarian, Command Squad/Razorback, RW Attack Squadron, and the Vet Sgt/PW from the Plasma Gun Tac Squad. That nets you a total of 515 points back.

 

2 - With those 515 points, use 15 to give your Company Master a Jump Pack (so he has the mobility to attach to you JP Assault Squad/JP Chaplain) and get into melee with his 2+/3++ and Mace of Redemption.

 

3 - With the remaining 500 points, take the RW Silence Squadron (2 x Nephilim, 1 x Dark Talon). This meets your required AUX choice for the Lion's Blade and, due to formation rules, allows you to bring in all 3 flyers on a single successful roll (which can be re-rolled if required), making them pretty darn reliable for a turn 2 arrival.

 

More importantly, these three flyers give you a very strong chance at air superiority, both before the battle (thanks to the new Death from the Skies rules, which give you +1/-1 to your reserves and -1 to enemy reserves if you have Air Superiority, which you will, since Daemons have no flyers) and on the board itself, allowing you handily deal with enemy FMCs that otherwise would be difficult to counter.

 

Finally, all three of these flyers are quite strong against a Daemon army, I would argue. The two Nephilim can use their HB, Black Sword Missiles, and Avenger Mega Bolter (with BS5 from Strafing Run) to tear up all kinds of Daemons, be it hordes of Bloodletters and Daemonettes and Horrors or Daemon Princes or Skull Cannons or Soul Grinders. Additionally, the Dark Talon can use its Stasis Bomb (which doesn't scatter, thanks to the Formation special rules), Rift Cannon, and Hurricane Bolters (all at BS5 again because of Strafing Run) to make life very bad for Daemon hordes that lack transports or tank support.

 

 

I don't know if you have three flyers like this available in your collection, but against Chaos Daemons I think they could be a very effective "variation" to you army that still keeps everything pure Dark Angels and allows you to field the majority of your baseline Lion's Blade force.

[Pigshead]

Cheers for the tips and advice guys! SnakeChisler, it seems you and I think alike, most of your suggestions are things I've already been considering, although my experience with demons suggest no Librarian is just as effective as Ezekiel or any other Librarian, he just gets everything dispelled.
 

Sounds like you have an interesting game coming up!  I have a few questions, if you don't mind.  Are you using 5 man squads and what is the point limit?  How have the Grav Drop pods been working for you in the past?

 

There is not much that I can add to SnakeChisler's advice since I have not played against Daemons but I would probably swap out one of the dev squad heavies for some plasma cannons.  They have worked well for me in the past when faced with MEQs and lighter.  I am interested to see how this turns out.  Keep us posted and good luck!

Yeah everything is 5 man, I'm a firm believer in flooding the board with lots of small units. It's a 2000 point game. And the Grav drop pods have worked pretty well, scored plenty of points in Maelstrom games, and also drawn a lot of fire, and while people are shooting at them, they aren't shooting at the drop pods or the black knights hurtling around the place being pests.

 

I have always relied on my 4 Plas Cannon Devs when battling my Brother-in-Law's Khorne Deamonkin. Camped up somewhere safe blasting all sorts to doom. Great at killing most things (less terminators and heavy vehicles), my best ever result with them was to rip a 10 man berserker squad off the board in one fell swoop. Awesome.

 

I have serious issues with plasma cannons. I won't be taking them. I think the techmarines need to up their maintenance rituals or something, they ALWAYS get hot and kill the user.

True, maybe some bolter brothers for cover? Combi flamer on the sergeant? Heavy bolters might be just as useful (and cheaper!) but if we are headed there, then it's two in a Rhino!

 

Yup, following that line of thinking, already put another version of the list together that's bristling with heavy bolters and flamers.

You really just want as much massed shooting as possible against a Daemon list. High strength weapons can be useful but low AP weapons are totally wasted since they all have at least a 5++ (could be better depending on the list). Maybe take a few heavy weapons to deal with MCs, but I would say in general you would get more from a heavy bolter than a plasma cannon since the ap2 is just about wasted. Definitely stay away from massing grav since you'll be wounding on 6s for the most part.

 

Edit: oh and flamers couldn't hurt either

 

See above!

Here is an idea that might be useful against Daemons for your army:

 

 

1 - Drop the Librarian, Command Squad/Razorback, RW Attack Squadron, and the Vet Sgt/PW from the Plasma Gun Tac Squad. That nets you a total of 515 points back.

 

2 - With those 515 points, use 15 to give your Company Master a Jump Pack (so he has the mobility to attach to you JP Assault Squad/JP Chaplain) and get into melee with his 2+/3++ and Mace of Redemption.

 

3 - With the remaining 500 points, take the RW Silence Squadron (2 x Nephilim, 1 x Dark Talon). This meets your required AUX choice for the Lion's Blade and, due to formation rules, allows you to bring in all 3 flyers on a single successful roll (which can be re-rolled if required), making them pretty darn reliable for a turn 2 arrival.

 

More importantly, these three flyers give you a very strong chance at air superiority, both before the battle (thanks to the new Death from the Skies rules, which give you +1/-1 to your reserves and -1 to enemy reserves if you have Air Superiority, which you will, since Daemons have no flyers) and on the board itself, allowing you handily deal with enemy FMCs that otherwise would be difficult to counter.

 

Finally, all three of these flyers are quite strong against a Daemon army, I would argue. The two Nephilim can use their HB, Black Sword Missiles, and Avenger Mega Bolter (with BS5 from Strafing Run) to tear up all kinds of Daemons, be it hordes of Bloodletters and Daemonettes and Horrors or Daemon Princes or Skull Cannons or Soul Grinders. Additionally, the Dark Talon can use its Stasis Bomb (which doesn't scatter, thanks to the Formation special rules), Rift Cannon, and Hurricane Bolters (all at BS5 again because of Strafing Run) to make life very bad for Daemon hordes that lack transports or tank support.

 

 

I don't know if you have three flyers like this available in your collection, but against Chaos Daemons I think they could be a very effective "variation" to you army that still keeps everything pure Dark Angels and allows you to field the majority of your baseline Lion's Blade force.

I've actually been thinking about sticking a jump pack on the Company Master, but my obsession with only playing fully painted models means I would have to finish painting him first, and I'm too hungover today to even think about that. 

As for the 3 flyers, I only have one i'm afraid. But I intend on taking a heavy bolter wielding Ravenwing Support Squadron.

[Pigshead]

Ok, the latest version of the list is this:

Demi Company
Assault Squad - Jump Packs, Vet Sarg, flamer
Devastators - 4x Missile Launchers, 4x Flakk, Razorback
Tactical Squad - Heavy Bolter, Drop Pod

Tactical Squad - Heavy Bolter, Drop Pod
Tactical Squad - Heavy Bolter, Drop Pod

Chaplain - Jump Pack

Demi Company
Asssault Squad - Jump Packs, Vet Sarg, Flamer

Devastators - 4x Las Cannons, Razorback
Tactical Squad - Flamer, Combi Flamer, Assault Cannon Razorback
Tactical Squad - Flamer, Combi Flamer, Las Plas Razorback

Tactical Squad - Flamer, Combi Flamer, Las Plas Razorback
Company Master - Artificer Armour, Mace of Redemption, Storm Shield, Jump Pack

Auxiliary
Ravenwing Support Squadron - 3x Landspeeders each with 2 heavy bolters, Dark Shroud with assault cannon

So that comes to 1655 points. 

Things I'm considering: Giving the Assault Squad Sargs power weapons in case they encounter the odd CSM squad. Putting Typhoon Missile Launchers on the speeders, will give that extra oomph if there's more armour than I expect and frag can have it's moments against demons too. A dreadnought, because a) I like Dreadnoughts, b) My opponent dislikes dreadnoughts and c) because I recently finished painting a contemptor dreadnought, but I'm not sure how I could shoehorn one in to a Lions Blade. I also considered taking a mortis pattern contemptor with twin Kheres Assault Cannons. 12 strength 6 rending shots with skyfire could be incredibly handy Vs Demons.

I'm really looking forward to this game, my opponent has a really well painted army too, so I'll get plenty of pics, it's just a shame my board isn't painted yet.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

IMHo the combi flamer, flamer tacticals would be better in the pods and the HB tacticals would be better in the razorbacks. I prefer aggressiveness in the drop pods.

[ronin_cse]

IMHo the combi flamer, flamer tacticals would be better in the pods and the HB tacticals would be better in the razorbacks. I prefer aggressiveness in the drop pods.

 

Agreed, you'll get much better results going this way since you can fire the HB out of the fire points while capping objectives.

 

Also on the RBs could you do assault cannons on all of them? I think you'll get better results than with the las cannon/plas combos.

 

The mortis contemptor is a great idea and I would absolutely take it if you can. I suppose the only way to take one though is to take a CAD which of course adds a big tax so might not be worth it :/

 

Not sure what to tell you about taking the missile launchers or the power swords, if he does end up bringing some CSM with some armor then they would be nice but will probably be wasted against an all daemon list....although if he has some soul grinders some heavier weapons might be nice, although your 4 las cannon devastators should be enough along with all the assault cannons (ACs cause more pens against any armor they can actually hurt vs LCs).

[twopounder]

Over the last couple of months I've tried the Lions Blade as a Double Demi Company, once against Orks, once against Iron Hands with Skittari allies, and once against Guard and Grey Knights allies. The game against Orks was a solid win, the game against the Iron Hands was close, but also a solid win, the game against the Guard/Knights was an embarrassment of poor tactical decisions, cards that refused to help and dice that must have been cursed, so we don't talk about that game. We DO, however, talk about the game the following week where the Ravenwing slaughtered the same Guard/Knights list to a man! Huzzah for the Ravenwing! Huzzah!

 

Ahem...

 

Sorry, I got carried away there. So anyway, on Tuesday evening, I met up with some friends, which included the Ork and the Iron Hands player, and a third player was there, he plays demons mostly, sometimes CSM, but demons when he wants to win. The guys told him about my nasty Double Demi and how I had been winning with it. He laughed, and said it was only because I had all those free transports that I won. Frankly, I sort of agree with him, but I couldn't take that laying down, and pointed out that he only wins with demons because of all the free summoned units he gets. The banter went back and forth, and ended with him throwing down the gauntlet to my double demi.

 

Now, thing is, each time I've used it so far, I've not given the other player any warning until just before the game, I've also added that "this won't be a regular thing, I just want to see how it does against your army" and then I go back to more fluffy lists. But this time, he knows in advance, he too has free units, and he has what has been described as "A god awful bucket full of evil demon nonsense". I have no idea what this means, or what units it entails, but I'm fully expecting that bucket to have wings.

 

So, I write this here, not as a cry for help, or a plea for aid in building my list, but rather to document the run up to this game, and then to maybe make a little batrep of what should be an awesome game.

 

Wish me luck, brothers. For the Lion! 

 

Do you know what he has? Builds vary greatly depending on the marks in use. Heavy tzeentch and I'd drop deathwing on him. If he's playing mostly Khorne, he's going to have a really, really bad day.