Atia Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Ok, this may be just artistic freedom from good ol' Neil Roberts, but these Raven Guard totally have Mark VII legs and shoulders ... It may fall under the Non-Production Mark V excuse, but I'm not mad right? They look like Mark VII parts? I want to note that the 2 guys left and right of Corax have the same MkVII style legs, but with rivets. No (production) MkV cables above the knees. /discuss! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Artistic license :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 We knew that Mk7 was developed during the Heresy (per Rick Priestly - UK WD 129: Space Marine Power Armor), it makes sense that it would have been deployed for testing. Doesn't seem like a new development to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soldier of Dorn Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Probably artistic license. There, of course, were suits of Mark VII during the Heresy, but those were mostly restricted to loyalists at the Siege of Terra. From Index Astartes Apocrypha, in an article by Rick Priestley on the various Marks of Power Armor (the section on Mark VII:) While the final battle for Mars was underway the Imperium, realising the planet would eventually fall, set about duplicating the munition production lies back on Earth. The armour development teams from Mars were transferred wholesale to continue the development program and incorporate their latest work into a new armor type. As Horus's forces finally overcame the defenders of Mars new Mark 7 armoured suits started to reach the Space Marines on Earth and the Moon. That being said, it seems reasonable to assume that a few prototype suits made their way to the Raven Guard alongside the mass shipments of Mark VI. I could definitely be persuaded by that argument. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 There may have even been a few early development suits making their way to all Loyalist Legions by late Heresy time frames. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 There is usually much more freedom to do what the artist wants on the covers of the novels as compared to the stuff we get from FW directly. That being said, this isnt the first time we've come across mk VII parts before. As far back as HH book 1, we have had images of SoH and others with mkVII helmets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 We knew that Mk7 was developed during the Heresy (per Rick Priestly - UK WD 129: Space Marine Power Armor), it makes sense that it would have been deployed for testing. Doesn't seem like a new development to me. And IIRC, Mk VII is kind of like a Mk VI 2.0 ain't it? So wouldn't it stand to reason there are similarities between? Wait, aren't there supposed to be similarities between the two? I can't recall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 There's also a dead Fist on the cover of Praetorian, that looks to be wearing full Mk. VII plate. I'd say it's intentional. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 And IIRC, Mk VII is kind of like a Mk VI 2.0 ain't it? So wouldn't it stand to reason there are similarities between? Wait, aren't there supposed to be similarities between the two? I can't recall.There very much are, Mk7 was built as the final enhancement of the Mk6 armor after Mars was evacuated. The armor comments by Priestly also said: "As Mark 7 is a development of Mark 6, both have a great deal in common, and parts from one mark are readily interchangeable with parts from the other" So the armor we are seeing on the covers could actually just be Mk7 components being tested in the field attached to an otherwise Mk6 suit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Probably just some cool kneepads for Mk6. Pad is certainly Mk7, but I imagine they just drew an iconic marine pad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmacht Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 but I'm not mad right? HA! That ship sailed long ago hun. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I was reading Retribution today and saw a Crux Terminatus so I'm agreeing with artistic license. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elzender Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 To me these pads look a bit like reinforcements, they do not look "integrated" in the armor design, they protrude a bit and look to be flat, unlike the mkVII ones. The shoulder pad looks like mkVII, but mkIV pads are quite similar, it could be just a small slip on Neil Robert's part (not accusing him of anything, his art is awesome), or simply his take on mkIV. Anyways, I'm not sure when this image is supposed to be set, but I see 2 options: - It is after Istvaan V but before Corax has reunited with the Emperor: the kneepads are field repairs and modifications. - It is after Corax starts "creating" new marines: as it was approved by the Emperor, it is possible they were issued the first batches of mkVII, as it probably was the mark being produced at Terra, and as a reward for testing the mkVI and giving the feedback necessary to create the new mark. EDIT: The God-Potato of Mankind, as you brought the crux terminatus to the topic, which symbol is supposed to be the one on the sword's guard of the marine on the left of Corax? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4409928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I also think it is just Artistic licence. Or a really really deeper neaning buried in the artwork: Notice how the Marine is posed BEHIND Corax. Notice the squishy snaky "Dent" on the left shoulder pad. Notice how the cabin lighting gives the head and upper torso a green bluish sheen. Is this a clever Hint towards remaining AL Infiltration? Am I messing with your heads?! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
STC Logisengine Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Artistic licence all the way. It's not uncommon for BL cover art to completely ignore the finer points of technica such as armour marks and their visual profile, wargear of characters (Ferrus wields a damn pipewrench in his duel with fulgrim on the cover of "The last Phoenix") and so far not a single artist has ben able to accurately depict a contemptor dreadnought despite having a wealth of model references.Us enthusiasts often forget that most artists are not in-house and are as such not read-up on timelines and Little details of when, where and by whom a sertain manufacture-pattern of helmet or weapon was deployed, they look up some backgroundmaterial, or get a folder and just paint something according to a loose description. Then we see it and start reading into it eventhough there is no intent behind the art. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 Artistic licence all the way. It's not uncommon for BL cover art to completely ignore the finer points of technica such as armour marks and their visual profile, wargear of characters (Ferrus wields a damn pipewrench in his duel with fulgrim on the cover of "The last Phoenix") and so far not a single artist has ben able to accurately depict a contemptor dreadnought despite having a wealth of model references. Us enthusiasts often forget that most artists are not in-house and are as such not read-up on timelines and Little details of when, where and by whom a sertain manufacture-pattern of helmet or weapon was deployed, they look up some backgroundmaterial, or get a folder and just paint something according to a loose description. Then we see it and start reading into it eventhough there is no intent behind the art. But you know that the HH cover arts are done by one guy, and he does it now for 10 years. He works together with the FW team and they actually try to get things like armour marks done correctly now (back then it wasn't as easy, before FW did their stuff) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Artistic licence all the way. It's not uncommon for BL cover art to completely ignore the finer points of technica such as armour marks and their visual profile, wargear of characters (Ferrus wields a damn pipewrench in his duel with fulgrim on the cover of "The last Phoenix") and so far not a single artist has ben able to accurately depict a contemptor dreadnought despite having a wealth of model references. Us enthusiasts often forget that most artists are not in-house and are as such not read-up on timelines and Little details of when, where and by whom a sertain manufacture-pattern of helmet or weapon was deployed, they look up some backgroundmaterial, or get a folder and just paint something according to a loose description. Then we see it and start reading into it eventhough there is no intent behind the art. But you know that the HH cover arts are done by one guy, and he does it now for 10 years. He works together with the FW team and they actually try to get things like armour marks done correctly now (back then it wasn't as easy, before FW did their stuff) /play The theme from the X Files.... Seriously though, the BL covers are often visually stunning, but I have not noticed them to be very accurate in these, let's call them "modelling details". It is a cover for a RG Novel and the theme of RG is beakies. At best, I'd imagine it a concious choice to represent the ongoing timeframe and the mentioned gradual evolution of armour marks. Or it could just be a simple " This shoulder pad looks kinda blank - just add a rim to it" Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Does it really matter is the question everyone should be asking... We know that Mark 7 was developed during the Heresy, based on Mark 6, and that they pulled the armorers back to Terra as Horus's forces overcame Mars. Those are established references directly from Rick Priestly. If you are going by the currently written lore (who knows if it might change), rather than your own personal view, then there could have been some Mk7 in circulation for testing, etc. But even if it isn't Mk7 and this is just artistic license, why does it matter? So that we can argue on the Internet about another pointless topic? So we can hang a man's reputation as an "artist that doesn't pay attention" in absentia (since something tells me the artist isn't going to come here and "defend" his art)? Is that really what you want the B&C to be about? If the presence of Mark 7 in the Raven Guard arsenal earlier than we expected it becomes a plot point in this book, then it matters. We have learned something new about the 40K-verse. If it doesn't, then all that has happened is someone noticed a couple of meaningless fictional anachronisms in a picture. That happens in mainstream books as well with artist drawn covers. It rarely means anything when it happens. That really isn't that interesting and isn't worth dwelling on or fighting each other over. This topic is basically "spout your opinion without facts from the book". If you've read it and know sonething, let your fellow hobbiest a in on the knowledge, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear some new developments from the HH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Those kneepads don't actually scream MkVII to me, the flatness puts me more in mind of enlarged versions of the plates on Forge Worlds MkIII: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99550101509_LegionMK3IronArmour02.jpg As for the pad rims, a lot of people get hung up about the thickness, but the original concept sketches had both MkIV and MkVII having the thin rims, whilst all of the old MkIV miniatures either had the thick rims or used the MkVII plastic pads and Forge World themselves seem to have abandoned the thin rims now: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99550101510_LegionMk4MaximusArmour01.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Bryan Blaire, you are totally right. Period. We are discussing a picture from a book that is not even out yet regarding plastic soldiers in a fictional universe. ...... And how rad is that! ....And how rad is that, that we have no more pressing concerns at this moment! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Bryan Blaire, you are totally right. Period. We are discussing a picture from a book that is not even out yet regarding plastic soldiers in a fictional universe. ...... And how rad is that! ....And how rad is that, that we have no more pressing concerns at this moment! But.. but.. we're nerds! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
STC Logisengine Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Heresy! He dares use the forbidden arts of logic! A logician he! Blackend spawn of Old Night! BURN THE HERETIC!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 ... I get it now. Some people don't care for the lore, and possible additions to how 30k Marines can look (And yep, it was always clear they had MkVII at the Siege. At the Siege. Not before, and the RG was never present at the Siege in the old lore.). It's a bit sad actually. Tbh, if you think a topic isn't worth to be discussed, don't discuss it. Thanks for the few helpfull comments though (as I'm currently planning my RG force). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 ... I get it now. Some people don't care for the lore, and possible additions to how 30k Marines can look (And yep, it was always clear they had MkVII at the Siege. At the Siege. Not before, and the RG was never present at the Siege in the old lore.). It's a bit sad actually. Tbh, if you think a topic isn't worth to be discussed, don't discuss it. Thanks for the few helpfull comments though (as I'm currently planning my RG force). For the record: A) I hope I did not come across as wanting to pxx anyone off. B I think Brian just wanted to cool off some of the heat here. C) helter has the final call here... We are nerds. We are discussing these nerdy things. We went out of the way and found this place on the Internet to find a place were we can rant about the color of plasma guns and volkite rays. And I said this above... HOW RAD IS THAT! And I am loving every fetching minute of it. And I love all this fluff we are getting from the Heresy books, novels or FW. So if I came away smug and uncaring, truly, I' m sorry. I just think that the art on the novel covers is often ...loosely ...handling the aesthetics of the actual models. But then again, sometimes an artist does indeed sneak something in, intentionally or not. And if that fires off all that nerd gams neurodes, be sure I am right there riding the waves with you. Think that is it for tonight. Sincerely, Xin Ceithan, excitable fanboy. Edited due to mobile autocorrect nonsense. Good night :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4410734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 ... I get it now. Some people don't care for the lore, and possible additions to how 30k Marines can look (And yep, it was always clear they had MkVII at the Siege. At the Siege. Not before, and the RG was never present at the Siege in the old lore.). It's a bit sad actually. Tbh, if you think a topic isn't worth to be discussed, don't discuss it. Thanks for the few helpfull comments though (as I'm currently planning my RG force). Who doesn't care for the lore? I don't think anyone here has said anything about that. If you are interpreting that from statements made, look to your own internal thoughts, stories and assumptions first before trying to go outward with them. If you can't master your internal stories, you'll often miss what others are saying... Yes, we know that Mk7 was at the Siege. Which means it has to have been developed before the Seige. Which means it was likely field tested. That could be one thing these images are revealing. We won't know until someone has read the book. And if someone has read the book, they don't seem to be spilling any beans here, which would be selfish to their fellow hobbiests. Another interpretation of the image: the artist got it wrong. We also don't know that either, unless someone has read the book (in which case, see the statement two above). But here at the B&C, we should strive to be better than the rest of the 'Net and focus on constructive criticism, not trying to hang an artist in abstentia. If it's wrong, it's wrong, we can all move on. But is cover art bearing things we didn't previously expect/know or images that are wrong new? Nope. If we learn that Mk7 was field tested by a cadre of Raven Guard prior to the Siege, that will be a very interesting lore point. If we learn the artist simply drew something that wasn't part of the story, that doesn't affect the lore at all and is very uninteresting and not new. I know which I'd prefer to be true. Atia, if you are looking for a reason to have Mk7 in your forces, you can come up with several justifications, it doesn't have to come from "an official source", that's the beauty of 30/40K. Even the Primarchs didn't know everything that was going on in their entire Legion at all times during the Crusade/Heresy (case in point, Horus and the Lion), so saying that a bit of lore was lost that the RG actually did have access to early Mk7 components or suits for testing is not that far fetched (especially as they specifically did this for Mk6). If you didn't want to have it, even if Mk7 was present with the RG prior to the Siege, you still don't have to include it in your forces, it's not like it's presence in a single squad (or even entire task force) requires that it be present in every single Crusade Fleet or combat group. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322889-so-wait-early-mark-vii-during-the-late-hh/#findComment-4412208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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