Dark angels 30k Organisation (Angels of Caliban Spoilers)

[Major_Gilbear]

I don't think it'll be as simple as a particular Wing equates to a specific unit type. Instead, I reckon each wing or original host specialises in a particular type of warfare, and will therefore include all the elements necessary to perform this function. The reasoning for this is that they were the First Legion, operating alone before the other legions were ready for combat, and therefore had to include all these elements to be able to take on any foe they encountered. For example, if the First were tasked with destroying a heavily fortified city, they had the tools and specialists required to besiege it. Later on in the Great Crusade, such a target might have drawn the attention of the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors, but in the early days, the First Legion alone had to deal with the problem.

 

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at in my post above when I speculated on what the other "Wings" might specialise in! :)

 

In effect, it's a little like the different forms of forces that you build in the HH force lists depending on what type of Master of the Legion you choose.

 

 

HH Book Six has already given us rules for Ironwing and Ravenwing protocols. I'll be most surprised if the complete HH DA rules don't include the other Wings as well. That's probably why the DA Legion Special rules (Mastery of the Blade, Covenant of Death) feel slightly lackluster compared to the other Legions. It's the Wing Protocols which will give the Dark Angels their punch on the table top.

 

I would love to see if/how this is tackled in the rules. Besides having some DA-specific Rites of War, I'm not sure how you would represent the different elements of a Wing separate out from the rest of their company though.

[Spaced Hulk]

@ Major Gilbear: I think it will probably work exactly the same as Rites of War (HQ rules which alter army selection). Essentially there will be a minimum of 7 ways to pick a 30K Dark Angels force (+ a lot more if the normal Rites of War are also still available)

The first option will be to simply use the basic Legion army list, which will allow every option but provide only the two normal DA special rules (Mastery of the Blade & Covenant of Death). You can still include Wing elements - in fact you'll have to, because all Dark Angels are members of at least one Wing - but they won't get any other special rules, unless of course Forge World gives us some 'special' First Legion units (which of course they will, probably a Deathwing Secta Mortis squad and perhaps a robed, power armoured Sword Master unit [hint hint Forge World if you happen to be reading ]). But if you choose, for example, a Firewing Despoiler squad, they won't get any unique Firewing rules in a normal DA list.

Alternatively (and just like how the 'real' Dark Angels would operate ), you can choose to initiate one of the six Wing Protocols. Like Rites of War, these will alter the available army list options (probably even more drastically than the normal Rites of War), but will provide some very hefty bonuses as a trade off. This is the way the two existing Protocols (Iron & Ravenwing) work, and I think it's almost certain that the other four will do the same.

It's basically a different way of looking at the various Wings. As 40k DA players, we're used to the Deathwing and Ravenwing having a plethora of special rules and abilities that make them superior to their Codex counterparts. As a 30K DA player, these sort of units will only gain their advantages if their particular Wing is activated. So for example, in a normal DA Legion army list, a Ravenwing Outrider squadron will be no different than their counterparts in the other legions (except for the Mastery of the Blade special rule). However, if you choose to activate the Ravenwing protocol, those same Outriders will gain a boat load of special rules, and at no extra cost, but you'll be strictly limited to using the units that Protocol allows.

I think that Alan Bligh is (as usual) being very clever. All the Legions have access to Rites of War, but for the Dark Angels, their Rites (or Protocols) are actually enshrined in their Legion's history and culture. And because the First Legion were the template for all the others, it explains why the standard Rites of War exist in the first place.

From a gaming point of view, it makes the Dark Angels a very adaptable and flexible army to collect. If you choose another Legion, like the Iron Warriors or World Eaters, you're choosing an army whose special rules are dedicated to a particular mode of combat. A Dark Angels player, however, can actually choose their specialisation (which in gaming terms means rules bonuses) depending on how they want their army to operate - you're not tied to a particular type of tactic.

If I had to take a wild guess what special rules & limitations the other Wings might get (and this is pure speculaltion ):

Dreadwing: Destroyer squads as compulsory troops, but with bonuses to their weapons and perhaps different options (Destroyers with twin volkite serpentas instead of bolt pistols would be rather cool ). Limits to other units and their weapon options (for example: Heavy Weapon squads might only be able to take heavy flamers and/or volkites)

Firewing: Infantry, Dreads and artillery only. No transports, no flyers. Heavy Weapon squads perhaps gain +1 BS, + other bonuses when fighting in and against fortifications.

Stormwing: All infantry must be deployed by Drop Pod or Jump Pack, unless fighting in a Zone Mortalis (to represent boarding actions). Dreadnoughts are the only vehicles allowed. Bonuses when they deploy (twin linked weapons on arrival, perhaps allowed to assault on the turn their pod lands)

Deathwing: Elite units only, so Terminator squads, Veteran Tacticals + legion specific special units. Considerable bonuses to their close combat ability.

[Major_Gilbear]

 

I think that Alan Bligh is (as usual) being very clever. All the Legions have access to Rites of War, but for the Dark Angels, their Rites (or Protocols) are actually enshrined in their Legion's history and culture. And because the First Legion were the template for all the others, it explains why the standard Rites of War exist in the first place. 

 

Yep, that would actually be a neat way of giving the First a little nod without needing to make the special rules super-complicated - just adding Rites that activate some army-wide rules would be great. :D

[BadDice0809]

You made my day when you said Alan Blight told Gav what to write. Thank God.

Now when are they releasing this thing! And I can hope against hope for some of those drawings they sometimes include have a picture of the Dread wing symbol.

I also need to practice freehand now... like a lot.

[Skalpynock]

You made my day when you said Alan Blight told Gav what to write. Thank God.

Now when are they releasing this thing! And I can hope against hope for some of those drawings they sometimes include have a picture of the Dread wing symbol.

I also need to practice freehand now... like a lot.

Just re-read a specific part of Unremembered Empire because I was sure it was described there, and indeed it is: a skull in a hourglass.

[BadDice0809]

I want to see how FW/BL does it before I end up making something radically off

[lhavoc]

This is what I have so far:

 

Wings in "Unremembered Empire"

(Uniform is Black with Red/Martian Gold (?) Trim)

Deathwing - (Crossed Swords Insignia)

Ravenwing - ???

Stormwing - Assault Squads (?) Vacuum training and Breacher Shields.

Dreadwing - (Skull in Hourglass Symbol)

 

New Stuff from this thread:

Ironwing - (From Forge World) and other sources

Firewing - (From Forge World) (Red, Winged Flame w/Hexagram)

[Othniel's Blade]

Ravenwing - ???

 

 From 'Call of the Lion',

 

 

‘What’s that?’ Astelan asked, pointing to a heraldic symbol on Belath’s right shoulder plate, where normally a Space Marine’s organisational and rank markings would be painted. It was decorated with a quartered shield, white and blue, emblazoned with a sword held in the grip of a taloned foot.

‘That is the symbol of my order,’ replied Belath, somewhat taken aback. ‘The Order of the Raven’s Wing.’

Astelan turned an inquiring look to Galedan.

‘One of the knightly orders,’ the captain said. ‘A Calibanite rank badge.’

 

It goes on then to denote the Terran's shock at the repainted green shoulderpad with the Legion emblem.

[Skalpynock]

I believe the hexagram may be the symbol of the six-hosts organisation as a whole, rather than an element of the Firewing symbol (as the Deathwing cataphract also bears it)

[lhavoc]

I don't have the Forge World books yet, so the Firewing info is just from this conversation. Ironwing has been around since 3rd I believe. Dreadwing and Stormwing are new. Deathwing and Ravenwing seem to be the only ones that survived to the 41st. But maybe next Codex we might see the Heresy fluff manifest into a new brand of Veterans Squad (Can't stop the wishful thinking

[Marshal Rohr]

It doesn't make sense for the legion to always deploy as the wings. As has been pointed out there isn't any need for such specialization by the time of the heresy. The fact that the I legion rites of war are called the Ravenwing and Ironwing 'Protocols' makes me think that should a strategic need require it, the commander activates a protocol and passes command of the operation to the voted lieutenant, drawing legionaries into a fighting force based of ordination. The use f the word ordination makes me believe that a regular legionary may be in a single tactical squad with members from multiple different ordinations, but are detached if a protocol is activated. This would fit more in line with the original epic legion organization.

 

Point being, it's rare for a protocol to be activated, and the legion fights the same way as everyone else until the need arises. So if you see an assault squad, it doesn't automatically mean storm wing, etc.

[Kelborn]

I like this way too much to ignore.

Think that I will use this for my DA blackshield force but without the inner circle shenanigans.

 

How about Deathwing = close combat specialists

You probably cannot be part of the veteran wing right after your induction, right?

[lhavoc]

I see this philosophy reflected in current DA Veterans Squads. They are normal Marines until there is need then BAM! Instant elite, pick anything you want from the Armoury, throw on your Robes and off you go! I really hope this translates to a new role/rules/weapons for the current Veterans that make that unit far more powerful than it is currently.

[Major_Gilbear]

I see this philosophy reflected in current DA Veterans Squads. They are normal Marines until there is need then BAM! Instant elite, pick anything you want from the Armoury, and off you go!

 

Yes indeed, an excellent point!

[lhavoc]

Oh! And don't forget, they throw on thier Robes. (Is that what gives them the +1 attack?).

[Major_Gilbear]

Oh! And don't forget, they throw on thier Robes. (Is that what gives them the +1 attack?).

 

No, No; that would be the hot shower they take before heading out! ;)

[lhavoc]

So the +1 Attack is from the shock value of being attacked by a guy in a bathrobe?

[Macharius_88]

I'll have to get this book.  The DA Legion was larger than most realize, but apparently it suffered massive casualties (reduced to 20,000 marines from who knows how many originally)  fighting the Night Lords (who the DA purged from as many as 120,000 down to an estimated 10,000) during the Thramas Crusade.

If we assume as correct the Robbienw's speculation of an Order consisting of about 5,000 marines and 5 Chapters, and if we keep the 31st Order as the last order, we may have a total of about over 165,000 operational marines, maybe 170,000, with about 165 Chapters; we then have to add the Wing (speciality) command staffs, i.e. Voted-Lieutenants and Voted-Successors, as well as the Legion command staff.

I guess that a Voted-Lieutenant may be the equivalent of an Order commander (I don't know the specific rank), while Voted-Successors may be operating at the Chapter-level; each of these Speciality officers is likely to be accompanied by a thin command staff, so we can guess that (165+31)x10 = around another 2,000 marines, with Order- and Chapter-command being included in the 5,000 figure above.

The Legion command staff (and assets perhaps belonging to individual Orders as well to the whole Legion) may be around a further 3,000-5,000 Dark Angels: a 100-strong General Staff, the Caliban Garrison Command and the commanders of Order fleets and main voidships.

At the low end therefore we have a 170,000 (raw numbers) Dark Angels, while at the high end the grand total may be about 175,000.

[Marshal Rohr]

There's more than 5 Chapters in a Host. One is the 52nd I believe.

[lhavoc]

You could squeeze it if you say it like this:

 

52nd = 2nd Chapter of the 5th Host.

 

But personally, I like the idea of the DA being much bigger.

[Macharius_88]

There's more than 5 Chapters in a Host. One is the 52nd I believe.

According the text Robbienw has reported, six Orders (Hosts are Unification Wars-era units) made up more than 30,000 warriors. Actually, I do not know wether all these six Orders were in their full size or not; without any further information, I assume that they are, and therefore there are more than 5,000 warriors in each Order.

This brings us to the question about the sheer number of Orders in the 1st Legion at its peak. Robbienw in the first post wrote that the highest numbered Order is the 31st.

Threrefore there are at least 165,000 warriors we came assume for sure. The following is speculation:

• we do not know the total number of the Orders of the 1st Legion (they may be more than 31, although I deem it unlikely);
• we do not know wether Caliban is garrisoned by an Order or the garrison has to be counted outside of the Orders (I am for the latter hypotesis);
• we do not know if the Voted-Officers have a their own Marine command staff (I think they have);
• we do not know wether fleet assets have to be counted outside the Orders' forces (I assumed an average situation, given information from other Legions);
• we do not know how much is large the Legion's general staff;

and so on.

[Marshal Rohr]

Marine legions don't have general staff filled by legionaries. The senior officer is in command of marine forces, but the expeditionary fleet maintains it's own specific staff subordinate to The Lord marshal. Legion forces either act indepdentantly or under Militant grade or Primarch primary level command.

[Macharius_88]

Marine legions don't have general staff filled by legionaries. The senior officer is in command of marine forces, but the expeditionary fleet maintains it's own specific staff subordinate to The Lord marshal. Legion forces either act indepdentantly or under Militant grade or Primarch primary level command.

Each operational layer has its own staff, including the legion level: Legion handles planetary assets, legion-level support branches (apothecarion, armorium, librarium, non-marine support corps) and deals with legion-level consuls; similarly, Orders and Chapters do have their own staff handling their own areas of responsibility.

Compared to the linked organizational chart, the 1st Legion is even more complex, since the six Wings are autonomous from the line echelons.

[Phoebus]

Marshal Rohr,

 

Chapter designation is probably distinct from Order designation. Meaning, there was a 52nd Chapter before there were even Orders (that is, before Caliban was discovered). That Chapter was subsequently incorporated into one of the Orders after the First Legion was re-organized. 

 

If we assume as correct the Robbienw's speculation of an Order consisting of about 5,000 marines and 5 Chapters, and if we keep the 31st Order as the last order, ...

The question was posed to Gav Thorpe at the Black Library Bolthole forums a while back:

 

In "The Lion", Lion El'Jonson takes six Orders with him, numbering around 30,000 marines, with the highest numbered Order being the Thirtieth (IIRC). Assuming that average Order size is fairly constant throughout the First Legion, and that there are no gaps in Order numbers, it comes up to 5,000 marines per Order, and at least 150,000 marines in the Legion during the Heresy.

This would make Dark Angels one of the largest Legions active in the Heresy, very much on par with the Word Bearers and (quite possibly) even post-Calth Ultramarines. Is this right, or am I reading too much into this?

And he answered:

 

"Assuming that ... there are no gaps in Order numbers..."

And that would be wrong. However, it is safe to assume that the DA are one of the normal-to-larger-sized legions, with warriors in excess of 100,000 at the outbreak of hostilities.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Marine legions don't have general staff filled by legionaries. The senior officer is in command of marine forces, but the expeditionary fleet maintains it's own specific staff subordinate to The Lord marshal. Legion forces either act indepdentantly or under Militant grade or Primarch primary level command.

Each operational layer has its own staff, including the legion level: Legion handles planetary assets, legion-level support branches (apothecarion, armorium, librarium, non-marine support corps) and deals with legion-level consuls; similarly, Orders and Chapters do have their own staff handling their own areas of responsibility.

Compared to the linked organizational chart, the 1st Legion is even more complex, since the six Wings are autonomous from the line echelons.

It's pretty clear the ordained marines are apart of the line echelons and detached if a protocol is activated. Legions do not maintain staffs and never have since book 1. There are no S-1 thru 6 shops, and staff legionaries. That's clearly demonstrated. Consular officers command independent detachments attached to battalion and chapter level deployments. The fact Narik Dreygur is a Warsmith but a Praevian in the rules backs this up.

 

There may be field grade or company grade officers who fulfill the role of a staff officer (Vigilator and reconnaissance section acting as battalion S2) or members of a field grades honor guard who perform the roles outside of combat. There is no dedicated body of marine whose sole purpose is staff work.