Dark angels 30k Organisation (Angels of Caliban Spoilers)

[Macharius_88]

You're right, so let's cut off the general staff from the counting...

 

Marshal Rohr,

 

Chapter designation is probably distinct from Order designation. Meaning, there was a 52nd Chapter before there were even Orders (that is, before Caliban was discovered). That Chapter was subsequently incorporated into one of the Orders after the First Legion was re-organized. 

 

If we assume as correct the Robbienw's speculation of an Order consisting of about 5,000 marines and 5 Chapters, and if we keep the 31st Order as the last order, ...

The question was posed to Gav Thorpe at the Black Library Bolthole forums a while back:

 

In "The Lion", Lion El'Jonson takes six Orders with him, numbering around 30,000 marines, with the highest numbered Order being the Thirtieth (IIRC). Assuming that average Order size is fairly constant throughout the First Legion, and that there are no gaps in Order numbers, it comes up to 5,000 marines per Order, and at least 150,000 marines in the Legion during the Heresy.

This would make Dark Angels one of the largest Legions active in the Heresy, very much on par with the Word Bearers and (quite possibly) even post-Calth Ultramarines. Is this right, or am I reading too much into this?

And he answered:

 

"Assuming that ... there are no gaps in Order numbers..."

And that would be wrong. However, it is safe to assume that the DA are one of the normal-to-larger-sized legions, with warriors in excess of 100,000 at the outbreak of hostilities.

 

Well, then there are less than 150-155,000 Dark Angels in the line forces and this closes the topic: if between 1st through 30th Order there are gaps the logical consequence is that there are less than 30 Orders, i.e. less than 150 Chapters. Since I did not read all the books, I cannot recall wether also void-assigned Marines are part of their own relevant ground-based unit.

[Charlo]

Shame the book had nothing new on Fire/ Storm wings... :(

 

But all the Dreadwing info makes me very happy.

 

Hoping when the DA are eventually covered in HH book 8 or beyond we get lots of rules for all of the wings.

[Othniel's Blade]

 

In "Unremembered Empire" the Stormwing was shown as assaulting Cruze using Jump Packs and Breacher Shields moving across the outside of the Invincible Reason. Seems to indicate some sort of "Assault" specialty.

It was just Breacher Shields, though I agree with you in principle.

 

 

If the Firewing is Heavy Weapons/Artillery specific.

I think the Retribution book gives us a clue as to what the Firewing is about. The Dark Angel's name and rank is Pelagor Marner, Squad Adjutant, Eloi-7 Despoiler Squad.

 

The rank itself would imply Pelagor is an assistant to the Sergeant of the squad. I can't remember which Horus Heresy book Despoiler Squads are in, but Forgeworld's website states that...

 

 

If fighting is expected to be at close quarters, such as in boarding actions or trench clearance, Tactical squads can sometimes forgo the standard bolter in favour of the combination of a bolt pistol and chainsword, allowing the Astartes more manoeuvrability in whatever tight confines they may find themselves in. These more assault orientated units are referred to as Despoiler Squads within the Legiones Astartes.

Perhaps this doesn't mean anything. Maybe it's just a case of a Firewing-ordinated Space Marine who happens to be in a Despoiler Squad, in which case we have no clue as to what the Firewing itself actually does.

 

Or... perhaps the Firewing is the various Tactical units all rolled into one. That would make some sense, since Deathwing equals Terminators, Dreadwing is Destroyers, Stormwing is (probably) Breachers and Assault Squads, and Ravenwing is bikers. If we can accept that Ironwing includes artillery as well as armour, then it all fits.

 

I think I agree with this more than some of the other analyses, after looking through these threads and what I know of the DA lore. I wanted my Chapter to incorporate elements of their heritage along with their  journey since the Heresy (ie, new armour marks, current 1st and 2nd companies).

 

While my general paint scheme is much more similar to the Disciples of Caliban, I kept the red & white Legion emblem. Thankfully, it matched the new HH book that came out a month later after i painted the red wings. I also wanted to denote elements of these wings on my units to communicate a knightly descent, which I believe should rightfully overshadow our 'acknowledgement' of the Codex Astartes.

 

As I'm not overly familiar with the 30k Legion list... On to 40k, here are my thoughts on (codex: DA) force organisation as per the original 6 wings:

• Deathwing: Terminator-status veterans and leadership, those inducted into the full knowledge of DA history.
• Ravenwing: Vehicular Fast Attack, bikes, speeders, flyers (all but jump packs)
• Ironwing: Heavy Vehicular and Fire Support: Predators, Vindis, Whirlwinds, etc. I hesitate to assign Rhinos and Razorbacks though this seems like the Armoured option, but would like to include LRs as the most protective and devastating transport option. 
• Dreadwing: Devastators, Heavy Weapons Specialists and possibly esoteric Special Weapons bearers such as grav and maybe plasma. Gunslinger, grav, plas, melta Vet/Command Squads.
• Stormwing: Assault squads of all arrangements, close combat Vets.
• Firewing: Tac squads and basic transports. Standard Specials such as flamers, meltas, maybe plasma.
• Scouts are not yet Angels until training is complete, but the focus of the squad may mark the sergeant's armour to show the specific training he is instilling in his students: Sniper-Dread, bolter/combi-Fire, pistol/CCW-Storm

This is my current theory, and I'm  highly open to suggestions/crits. If I get around to some BaC marines, I'd love to paint them as historically as possible to mark the individual histories; so I am hesitant to completely lock in to this before the next few books.

 

Edit: if this should be its own thread, please move.

[lhavoc]

What I would like to see with the Dark Angels is more of the "pre-Mars" equipment. As the 1st Legion, our assumption that they were much more involved in the Unification Wars and we know that there were some serious technomancy cults/organizations that the Emperor had to defeat even before he went to Mars. That tech may never have been shared due to the other Legions not being around before the standardization of Imperial tech that the extremely conservative Martian hegemony would have imposed. Just like in many Armies, technology drives organization.

[b1soul]

So they fought in the Unification Wars?

 

We know Thunder Warriors fought at the last battle of Unification.

 

 

That means the early DA fought alongside the TW during Unification and may have helped to destroy the last TW?

[Robbienw]

Yes they did.

 

I think its highly likely they were present at the Battle of Mount Ararat.

[Brother Dimetrius]

Just read the book. IIRC Astelan reminisces about the Thunder Warriors, in a way that suggests he was familiar with them. Would make sense if they fought together during Unification.

[Indefragable]

What I like about what you've said so far is the idea that the Dark Angels really are the First Legion, and hold closely to that identity. For better and worse.

 

And part of why the Lion is a bit of a **** to everyone is that he has Fredo syndrome*.

 

 

 

*see Coppola, Francis Ford. The Godfather: Part II

[Phoebus]

So... you're equating the Lion with a middle brother who betrays his younger brother out of envy and feelings of inadequacy? I'm not sure how this comparison works.

[Indefragable]

So... you're equating the Lion with a middle brother who betrays his younger brother out of envy and feelings of inadequacy? I'm not sure how this comparison works.

 

More along the lines that Lion El'Jonson was meant to be Warmaster. But since the birthing pods were scattered and Horus was found first--and thus spent the most time alongside the Emperor--he grew into the role and had the political capital to stay the first among equals. When the Lion was reunited with his brothers, he saw what he somehow knew deep down inside was his had gone to someone else and it would be too much of an uphill battle to outright reclaim. Hence why he was instead aloof and deliberately guarded and slow to follow Horus's orders. 

 

...kind of mirrors the Lion-Luther dynamic, too.

 

Just my take on things in a short story being written. 

[Phoebus]

Well, yeah, there's something to be said about what you just posted, right there. I just don't see how any of it has anything to do with Fredo Corleone.

 

Fredo was (aptly) described by a Corleone family associate as a guy with "a good heart", but who was "weak and stupid." He betrays his family out of a desire to somehow become something that he's not. His family's enemies play on his insecurities and failures to convince him to side with them.

 

The Lion is aloof and taciturn, but he is every bit the equal of his brothers (minus Horus, but that's true of every other primarch). The fact that Horus gets something that (perhaps) should have been his doesn't stop the Lion from earning acclaim as a strategic genius. No one mistakes him as being weak or incapable.

 

Maybe the Lion did harbor envy for Horus; Lupercal seems to think that was the case (see Horus Rising), though the Lion himself never expresses such sentiments. Far from betraying the Imperium (his "family," if you will), however, the Lion was seen as being steadfast and loyal to the point that Horus sent him as far away as he possibly could prior to the Isstvan Atrocity (and subsequent Dropsite Massacres).

 

All that having been said, I have yet to read Angels of Caliban, so there I may very well be missing key new lore!