Plasma Moritat/Cyber Hawk

[Ironwithout]

So we all know the nerf on a plasma Moritat. But here is my question and my logic on why I am asking.

 

A Cyber Hawk is a piece of Wargear and from a in game purpose is merely a token. It allows for re rolls to hit of a 1. See the rule below.

 

The Cyber-hawk may be placed anywhere on the table it may physically sit and may be moved elsewhere at the beginning of each of its owning player's turns. Any unit with the Infantry type and the Legiones Astartes (White Scars) special rule that is firing upon an enemy which has at least one model within 6" of the Cyber-hawk may re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 and may re-roll charge distance.

 

Token representing the Cyber-hawk plays no other role in the game and may not be attacked, attack, or block line of sight. (HH6: Retribution p263)

 

Now the Moritat does not state that it does not benefit from wargear only special rules etc. See the Lone killer rule below.

 

A Moritat may not be taken as a Compulsory HQ choice, only as an optional HQ choice, and may never be the army’s Warlord. Note that this means a Moritat may not be taken as part of an Allied Contingent. They may not join units or travel inside transports with other units except Legion Destroyer squads. They may not benefit from any Blessing type psychic powers, or from Leadership bonuses, Leadership re-rolls or other beneficial special rules provided by other friendly models or army-wide effects which are the result of a Rite of War. (HH1: Betrayal p191)

 

From what I can see the Moritat would benefit from the Cyber Hawk re roll of a 1 to hit.

 

Thoughts?

[Dosjetka]

But doesn't the cyber hawk count as a friendly model, thus invalidating your idea? On the one side, it's clearly a model on the table... but on the other, it has no stats and is essentially a piece of equipment...

 

I would personally tend to agree that the Moritat does benefit from the re-roll that the cyber hawk gives.

[Ironwithout]

No not a model.

 

Token representing the Cyber-hawk plays no other role in the game and may not be attacked, attack, or block line of sight.

 

Most people will make a model though lol

[Raktra]

It's another model's wargear, so the other model's the source of the benefit, so no.

[Flint13]

Yeah "other beneficial special rules provided by other friendly models" pretty much sums it up.

 

Re-rolling 1's are defs a benefit, and the hawk belongs to another model. 

[Quixus]

It is unclear whether the cyber hawk is a model or not, but is the reroll granted by it even a special rule? Is there a rule saying that all rules that aren't basic rules are special rules? I'm pretty sure those are all called advanced rules. Special rules are indicated as such. If all non-basic rules were special rules, there would be no need to call out psychic powers or Rites of War separately.

[shandwen]

The cyber hawk may not be a model, but the character who takes it would be gaining the benefits for the army to use, and granting the benefit to thw moritat (so I would say no dice hombre)

[Quixus]

The cyber hawk may not be a model, but the character who takes it would be gaining the benefits for the army to use, and granting the benefit to thw moritat (so I would say no dice hombre)

Army wide bonuses are only excluded if they come from a Rite of War. The cyber hawk is not a rite of war.

[Flint13]

It is unclear whether the cyber hawk is a model or not.

 

I disagree.

 

It's listed under "legion specific wargear" and the specific wording is "The White Scars legion has access to the following items of special wargear."

 

It's piece of wargear that may be represented "by a small token or model" or later, "counter." Its wargear belonging to an actual model, a WS legion praetor in this case, that provides the benefit of re-rolling 1s to hit and charges to any infantry unit within 6" of whatever you've chosen to be the representation of the hawk.

 

The ability to re-roll 1s and charge distances is definitely beneficial, and provided by the Praetor model which paid 10 pts for the cyber-hawk. Since it's a benefit and provided by a model that is not the Moritat, the Moritat can't benefit from it.  

[Quixus]

The ability to re-roll 1s and charge distances is definitely beneficial, and provided by the Praetor model which paid 10 pts for the cyber-hawk. Since it's a benefit and provided by a model that is not the Moritat, the Moritat can't benefit from it.  

The abilities are definitely beneficial, but they are not classified as special rules. Special rules are in the main rule book and on datasheets in their respective sections. No other rules are special rules AFAIK. On top of that they are not granted by the model (the praetor) directly but only through a piece of wargear. The rules do not specify whether rules granted through an such an intermediary are also excluded.

[Flint13]

Ok, if we want to get that insanely pedantic to try and force this combination to work with every conceivable interpretation...

 

It still wouldn't work as the text for Lone Killer doesn't capitalize "special rules" in its description, indicating that it refers to rules that are granted outside the norm of what are available to that model instead of "Special Rules" which would be specifically classified as Special Rules under a model's or piece of wargear's entry.

 

Obviously, that's not the level I think anyone should have to go to to clarify this, but its getting a little ridiculous at this point. 

 

I would think the sheer amount of required justification and unconventional "interpretations" of wordings just in an attempt to force this combination to work would indicate that it's way more trouble than it's worth and probably not what should be going down.

 

I suppose if you want to try and argue your opponent into letting you re-roll 1s on your plasma moritat in a GOTCHA! moment that will "work" exactly once before they'll never play you again, go for broke.

[Quixus]

Do GW's books even follow that guideline of capitalizing all game terms? GW seems to capitalize the names of specific special rules but not the term special rules itself. e.g.

Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules.

I have not seen the term special rules obviously applied to any rules other than those in the appropriate sections. They could have just used the term advanced rule, if they actually meant all non-basic rules.

 

I'm not arguing that you should use the cyber hawk to improve the moritat's shooting, but that the rules allow it, even though GW probably did not intend it to work. Unfortunately GW does not seem to be able to write clear consistent rules, even if their life depended on it. I really don't know why they removed the "universal" from that section in the main rule book in 6th or 7th edition. Using the term Universal Special Rules (whether with capital letters or without) would have made the Lone Killer rule much clearer as would not using it with the term existing in the rule book.

[Ironwithout]

OK I put this up as it seemed like a grey area. I would like to point out that I am not going to run this

[Resonance]

Yep seems pretty beardy to me and very much against the spirit of the heresy!

 

Anything extra being granted to a model is a special rule. How can you possibly view it any other way!

 

And it's definitely coming from a model as its wargear of that model!

[Slips]

++ I think we're done here ++