Deredero Tactics?

[Brofist]

That's my conclusion in the link above. It's your best option against high AV or high HP fliers. It's decent as AT against high AV tanks, but for the points, dedicated AT does it better for cheaper- each arachnus lascannon is about the same performance as a single laser destroyer

[Plaguecaster]

I am starting to prefer the Arcahnus Las over the Laser Destroyer since it has longer range and you have two shots regardless of whether you moved or not. The more I look at it the more I am loving the Deredero's new armament  especially since I don't really use tanks that much anyway

[Brofist]

I see it more as a 'nice feature'- you want serious dedicated anti-air so you bring an Arachnus Deredeo. When it's not doing that it can also help you shoot at high AV tanks. The price point is the main limiting factor really. Sure it has better range, but for all those points you can take a lot of other stuff too.

[AfroCampbell]

yea it does peak over the 300pt mark which is insane...

[Dono1979]

Yes, the missiles are 360 since thats carapace mounted.

 

Carapace mount just means that it is mounted on the top of the upper armoured section (upper armour is the carapace). It doesnt say anything about turret or 360 degree.

 

While some of the weapons have a form of swivel/turret mounts (the Deredeo Missile Launcher), others do not (Contemptor Cyclone Missile Launcher). I personally play with a firing arc as if it is Hull mounted as it doesnt say it has anything else, however if an opponent really wants to play it otherwise, I wont stop them.

[Terminus]

yea it does peak over the 300pt mark which is insane...

With Aiolos and Arachnus, it is 270 points, so still a good 50 points cheaper than the typical Leviathan. Without the Aiolos, it's only 40-45 points more than a Sicaran of either variety, while being a better gun platform than either.

 

Regarding Anvilus vs Arachnus, I've seen the basic math, but I'm going to have to play with it some more. The Anvilus Autocannons are more consistent at stripping hull points, but the Arachnus has a bigger chance for spectacular results. Also dreadclaws and kharybdis craft are super popular around here (the latter my fault, muhahah), as are bunkered in Vindicators and Whirlwinds and the like.  It would be a no-brainer if the second auto-pen was automatic, but even with a 4+ it's worth exploring. I can't wait to see what the model looks like.

[Slips]

I mean, here you go:

 

[Terminus]

Ah, I missed that somehow. Meh, could have been better.

[LtDan]

If only we could take talons lol

[01RTB01]

Unless people are running rams/ bigger then the autocannons surely win.

 

The lascannons have more kick but for the extra cost is it worth it? I love deredeos but they rack up the points very quickly.

[Terminus]

I think I might have to disagree. When you're calculating fractions of hull points done, certainly the autocannons are more reliable. However when you actually calculate the percentage of something happening, like destroying the vehicle, the odds start to look different.

 

Using Mathhammer40k, the Anvilus will destroy an AV12 target roughly 32% of the time, while the Arachnus will kill it 35.8%. Anvilus destroys an AV13 target 19.3% of the time while the Arachnus has a 27.8% chance. Vs. AV14 the Anvilus has 0% chance while the Arachnus still a respectable 18.5%.

 

Now, the above statistics are actually flawed in a big way that favors the Anvilus. The app for some reason cannot account for tank hunter, so I used ordnance instead which is almost the same except rolling two and picking highest is better than re-roll, so the Anvilus numbers should be a bit lower.  The Arachnus numbers don't account for the extra automatic hit at all since the app has no such functionality, so its numbers are actually significantly underestimated.  Just increasing the number of its attacks to 3 to simulate the chance for an additional penetrating hit, the three numbers above jump to 48.1%, 38.9%, and 27.8%.  Note that this still forces that third shot to roll to hit/glance/penetrate, so the actual numbers are likely higher.

 

Then consider that jinking or 4+ cover cuts the Anvilus damage output by half (percentage chance to destroy goes to 17.8%/9.9%/0%), while the same does not apply to the extra magical hits of the Arachnus.

 

Yes, it's expensive, but I think it's going to turn out to be a real killer and if they gave these rules to the big gun on the Thanatar Calix, I'd buy one yesterday.

[01RTB01]

How does the anvillus have zero chance of destroying armour 14 when it's strength 8 and can glance to death?

 

For me personally stripped hull points are how I kill most vehicles. It's very rare I actually "pop" a vehicle.

 

It's a shame the plasma variant is essentially useless as its the best looking version.

 

For the % : points cost I'd rather stick the other 50 points somewhere else. That said I play both destroyers AND breachers so what am I on about :p

[Plaguecaster]

I reckon a Plasma Deredero would still do well especially in ZM games its even more of an infatry killer than the autocannons as its high AP will mean it it'll kill most squads it hits especially Terminators combine that with the missile launcher and any power armour squads will be running for the hills plus a large Blast Plasma weapon is pretty awesome I've got one but still haven't decided on what Legion I'll have it as IH or BS

[Terminus]

Yes, I can definitely see some play for the plasmas in Zone Mortalis, especially against deep striking terminators.

How does the anvillus have zero chance of destroying armour 14 when it's strength 8 and can glance to death?

For me personally stripped hull points are how I kill most vehicles. It's very rare I actually "pop" a vehicle.

It's a shame the plasma variant is essentially useless as its the best looking version.

For the % : points cost I'd rather stick the other 50 points somewhere else. That said I play both destroyers AND breachers so what am I on about

To be pedantic, given that most AV14 vehicles have 4+ hull points, the chances of hitting all 4 attacks and rolling 4 sixes even with re-rolls is less than 1%. But you're right 1% is more than zero.

I guess I should double check the math app I use, seems like it was set up for the old damage chart (hence no tankhunter option), so those percentages were the chance to blow something up on a penetrating hit. In my defense, the "tip of the week" banner advertising that fact didn't show up on my phone.

The app is still useful for doing the bare-bones calculations of hullpoints/wounds caused (that Bulbafist helpfully put in a chart above in this case), just the percentage "destroyed" is your chance to roll a 6 (or 5 or 6 in the case of AP2 or 4+ in the case of AP1) on a penetrating hit. Adjusting for this, the Arachnus chance to cause a penetrating hit and then roll a 6 to destroy is as follows:

AV14 = 9.3%, AV13 = 13.9%, AV12 = 18.2%. Adding another "attack" to simulate magic pen, it's 13.9%/20.1%/25.9%

Negative/AP0 is not an option, unfortunately, and the manual math itself is too tedious with the way the guns work. Lesson of the day: don't trust the first thing you tap on in a google search.

[Flint13]

I'm really liking the idea of the lascannons for anti-air. I don't know much that will do legit damage to a Stormbird, but the lascannons seem like a good step in the right direction.

 

Plus it'll just reduce one of the 2hp AV11 kraken-caddies that are so popular to its compnent atoms with negligible effort.

[01RTB01]

Yes, I can definitely see some play for the plasmas in Zone Mortalis, especially against deep striking terminators.

How does the anvillus have zero chance of destroying armour 14 when it's strength 8 and can glance to death?

For me personally stripped hull points are how I kill most vehicles. It's very rare I actually "pop" a vehicle.

It's a shame the plasma variant is essentially useless as its the best looking version.

For the % : points cost I'd rather stick the other 50 points somewhere else. That said I play both destroyers AND breachers so what am I on about

To be pedantic, given that most AV14 vehicles have 4+ hull points, the chances of hitting all 4 attacks and rolling 4 sixes even with re-rolls is less than 1%. But you're right 1% is more than zero.

I guess I should double check the math app I use, seems like it was set up for the old damage chart (hence no tankhunter option), so those percentages were the chance to blow something up on a penetrating hit. In my defense, the "tip of the week" banner advertising that fact didn't show up on my phone.

The app is still useful for doing the bare-bones calculations of hullpoints/wounds caused (that Bulbafist helpfully put in a chart above in this case), just the percentage "destroyed" is your chance to roll a 6 (or 5 or 6 in the case of AP2 or 4+ in the case of AP1) on a penetrating hit. Adjusting for this, the Arachnus chance to cause a penetrating hit and then roll a 6 to destroy is as follows:

AV14 = 9.3%, AV13 = 13.9%, AV12 = 18.2%. Adding another "attack" to simulate magic pen, it's 13.9%/20.1%/25.9%

Negative/AP0 is not an option, unfortunately, and the manual math itself is too tedious with the way the guns work. Lesson of the day: don't trust the first thing you tap on in a google search.

In that respect then the autocannons would read zero across the board as you need a 7+ to blow something up and as they're ap4 it's literally impossible :)

It's the internet, pedantry is synonymous,especially with wargamers so worry not :p

I understand the relevance of mathhammer but it doesn't seem to factor in the bizarre nature of my dice :D

[Terminus]

The autocannons would have a chance to roll a destroy under the old rules the mathhammer40k.com calculator uses, before GW shifted the damage charts so that only AP2 or better could get a destroyed result.

I'm really liking the idea of the lascannons for anti-air. I don't know much that will do legit damage to a Stormbird, but the lascannons seem like a good step in the right direction.

Plus it'll just reduce one of the 2hp AV11 kraken-caddies that are so popular to its compnent atoms with negligible effort.

I wonder how popular those kraken caddies will really be with the new increase in kraken missiles (I guess mechanicum can still put out the cheap ones, plus they [we... muahahaha] can put it on Avengers).

I am actually thinking about using my Lightning to deliver specialized bomb ordnance rather than a one-time payload of kraken missiles. Electromagnetic charges are 2 for 10 points and are large blast haywire weapons. Phosphex clusters give you 2 templates per drop and are AP2. Bombs also don't require ground tracking auguries because they always either hit or scatter D6", and you don't really need a 15 point tank hunter upgrade for a single lascannon. And you can still fire the lascannon and any other guns you brought at a different target in the shooting phase.

A Lightning with 2x Sunfury missiles (cost increase, boo!) and 2x Phosphex Clusters (cost decrease, yay!) will immolate huge swaths of infantry over 2 turns, and is 40 points cheaper than the typical 4x kraken Lightning.

More on topic, I guess what I'm saying is an Arachnus would have ample opportunities to incinerate AV11 HP2 targets once my Lightning and Javelin plans come to fruition.

[shandwen]

I think Lightnings will be relegated to bombers. With the haywire bombs and flares it can destroy a Deredero before interception (not likely but that's why it should pay for the flares).

[01RTB01]

A tad off topic but I'll still run my 6 kraken lightning as there is no anti tank like it elsewhere available. It's able to slaughter the heaviest opposing armour. It's the ultimate glass cannon and the points have upped on it, but infantry killing can be done by most astartes elements. Tank slaying is what the lightning does best imo.