Sell me on the Night Lords?

[Fire Golem]

This might be an odd problem, but some of you on here have managed to sell legions in the past that I haven't liked based on your interpretations or wording. I like the Night Lords, they're really cool, I like the models, and the rules; I keep almost starting them but something puts me off. But whenever I read about them, I find it quite hard to respect them. Certain characters are fine, Sevatar being the obvious example, but on the whole, they seem quite unlikable and hard to root for sometimes. They seem quite cowardly, they don't have that impressive a record, they don't even have the strong bonds of brotherhood that the World Eaters have. Their Primarch, while cool in his own way, is broken, and doesn't feel as awe inspiring or inspirational as the others. I like how twisted they are, they just don't seem to be much of a threat, not against the other legions anyway.

 

Is it just a symptom of them having not much written, and where they are, a tendency to be written a bit as one dimensional comic book villains (Curze particularly)? Are they just supposed to be unlikable? Have I just missed something completely? What is it people like about them?

[Joe]

They are intended to be incredibly twisted and more or less unlikeable. That said, they have some interesting personalities amongst them such as Sevatar. They are neither the strongest legion on the field of battle nor the one with the greatest brotherhood, however they are uniquely vicious and cruel. Whereas the World Eaters are a blunt instrument, the Night Lords have a certain finesse about them.

 

Look at it this way; if you enjoy the very darkest aspects of the universe then you'll love the Night Lords. They have some fantastic rules and units (Terror Squads), and visually they look great.

[Slips]

Dude, read the Night Lords books by AD-B if you haven't.

[Fire Golem]

Dude, read the Night Lords books by AD-B if you haven't.

I'm going to read them once I've finished Pharos :)

[DarKnight]

If AD-B's books don't make you a fan, than you likely never will be 

[Fire Golem]

I'm sure I'll like Talos's First Claw, but are they a good portrayal of the legion as a whole? And have they changed much since the Heresy?

[SalvationOfReason]

Yes and no. Without going into spoilers, First Claw and company still embody the best (and worst) of the Great Crusade/Heresy-era Night Lords, for the most part.

[Balthamal]

This might be an odd problem, but some of you on here have managed to sell legions in the past that I haven't liked based on your interpretations or wording. I like the Night Lords, they're really cool, I like the models, and the rules; I keep almost starting them but something puts me off. But whenever I read about them, I find it quite hard to respect them. Certain characters are fine, Sevatar being the obvious example, but on the whole, they seem quite unlikable and hard to root for sometimes. They seem quite cowardly, they don't have that impressive a record, they don't even have the strong bonds of brotherhood that the World Eaters have. Their Primarch, while cool in his own way, is broken, and doesn't feel as awe inspiring or inspirational as the others. I like how twisted they are, they just don't seem to be much of a threat, not against the other legions anyway.

 

Is it just a symptom of them having not much written, and where they are, a tendency to be written a bit as one dimensional comic book villains (Curze particularly)? Are they just supposed to be unlikable? Have I just missed something completely? What is it people like about them?

 

OK where to begin. First read the Soul Hunter Trilogy by ADB. Secondly, re-read everything that features them in the Heresy. From memory you'll want: The Dark King/Savage Weapons/Prince of Crows/Unremembered Empire/A Safe and Shadowed Place/Pharos/Child of Night/The Watcher. That is pretty much the extent of the literary baseline of the VIII Legion. What I'll say about ADB's work, and to a lesser extent John French's efforts with Child of Night is that you gain an appreciation of them as characters, both their strengths and their flaws. It's similar to his work with Angron, Khârn and the XII but on a different wave length. As a Legion, they are hard to root for, that's Aaron's great achievement: you do end up rooting for them. You see the amount of :cuss they take and you almost want them to pull something off. As far as the cowardice goes, nothing wrong with that   they see tactical cowardice as one of the more amusing virtues among the Legion, especially when characters like Ophion demonstrate actual bravery to provide contrast.

 

I think the comparison between the Night Lords and the World Eaters is quite telling: you've got probably the two most broken Primarchs (Lorgar/Magnus/Mortarion/Perturabo are also contenders but you could argue their breaking points all came after the Emperor found them) Angron had the nails hammered into his skull as an infant which ruined him physically (despite his obvious prowess) whereas Curze was left to fend for himself in the criminal :cuss pit of the galaxy which did the kind of mental damage nobody could comprehend. Angron's mind started caving in because of the torture the nails inflicted on him whilst Konrad fell apart not only through the things he had seen and done but for the things he saw coming to pass in the future. It's a wonder he lasted as long as he did when he knew before time that everything he had stood for was a lie and that he would end up becoming the thing his Legion had crusaded 200 years to eradicate: a criminal, a commiter of atrocities without a higher purpose, a betrayer of oaths.

 

The same applies to the Legions really. The World Eaters cling to the brotherhood they have left because it is the only thing the nails haven't totally debased: in battle they'd easily kill each other when lost to the nails if it wasn't for that one thing. If they were to kill each other it wouldn't be a conscious thing. The Night Lords are the flip side of that: they coldly decide to kill their brothers all the time. It's not accepted but expected (there's a hundred varieties of murder duel where a marine can claim rank through killing their superiors). The XII cleave to the honour of the pits because it is the only thing keeping them together. The Night Lords only cleave to brotherhood when it is the last thing that will keep them alive. Granted there are (sort of) charismatic leaders like Sevatar, Malcarion, Var Jahan and Ophion who bind men to follow them through things other then self interest and survival but that's what makes them interesting: How do you lead a Legion of selfish murderers who in all likelihood want to rule in your place? They're not supposed to be likeable in the traditional sense, they're supposed to be interesting. Like how does a Legion populated with the scum of humanity function? Why are they like they are? Is it all Curze's fault? Plenty of the Legion love, fear and hate him in equal measure and he in turn despises his sons. You've got the original Terrans who see themselves as a tool of justice whereas the Nostramans simply accept they're killers and enjoy what they can.

 

As far as being a threat to the other Legions goes, they're very much a threat. Take Istvaan V. You've got 4 Legions who have already murdered a good chunk of their sworn brothers so they're committed to the bitter end and 4 who are about to betray the 3 they're fighting alongside. Now each of them are going through various degrees of doubt (as seen in the First Heretic) and conflicting emotions - this is a massive deal. There's no going back from this point. Realistically all 4 could have remained loyal and the SoH/WE/EC/DG would have been crushed. So you have the Alpha Legion/Word Bearers/Iron Warriors really needing to get themselves up for the fight. And then you have the Night Lords who are like "meh, just another Tuesday for us" They didn't have any qualms, they went in ready and willing to kill everyone. That came from ADB/John French/Graham McNeil at the heresy weekender a few years back when talking about the Dropsite Massacre. 

 

I mean in their current state (no spoilers) they're obviously operating at a lower effectiveness but say Sevatar had ended up in overall command? You've got the fickleness of Curze out of the way and in his place is one of the greatest commanders outside of the Primarchs whose men are loyal to him, probably even more so than the Primarch. He could have done unbelievable damage. It might still happen, we'll have to wait and see if Nightfall ever makes it to print but that's just an example of what could have occurred. And that's the other angle to why they're dangerous. They're perfectly capable of going on without the Night Haunter - half the Legion hates him anyway so they're pumped to be out from under his rule. You look at some Legions like the SoH who packed up and fled Terra the second Horus died or the Salamanders who spend all their (badly written) time mumbling Vulkan lives and ceasing to function as an effective element. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Dude, read the Night Lords books by AD-B if you haven't.

I'm going to read them once I've finished Pharos

 

 

the two books are way off in portrayal of the legion. Pharos really emphasizes the more backstabby and Skaven-like tenancies of the VIIIth, as well as making them seem extremely incompetent at being soldiers. The series portrays them as more likeable, yet still cruel as  and less tropey in terms of running away and backstabbing and ambushey. 

[Atia]

Q: Sell me on the Night Lords?

A: Here

[Sabadin]

they just don't seem to be much of a threat, not against the other legions anyway.

 

 

In a galaxy full of everything but legions, that's not a problem. The words "we have come for you" are enough to make entire sub systems surrender, that's how fearsome our reputation is.

 

After the Heresy, we were the only threat that saw an entire legion be sent to deal with us. Cowards we are not, dead legionaries don't win wars. We are practical, we stick in for the fights that can actually be won.

[Kol Saresk]

Q: Sell me on the Night Lords?

A: Here

Who is that?

[Fire Golem]

Thanks guys. Balthamal, great response, thanks for taking the time to write that. Atia, I love that model, I just hope I can find someone to pick me one up! It definitely seems to be a case of their representation not being brilliant so far. I also think I should have read AD-Bs NL books first!

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, with the exception of one glaring short story and an infamous novel, their representation has been pretty spot on. That said, there isn't a massive amount of it. It's mostly short stories or cameos. Pharos was really the first novel, but it gets mixed reviews. A lot of people like it and think Guy Haley did a fantastic job. Some, not so much.

[Athrawes]

I'd recommend reading this short piece by Brother Chaplian Kage: We Have Come For You

 

I save that post of his in my reference folder and it still makes me love Night Lords, there is literally nothing else I can think of that would better sell the Night Lords.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Athrawes

[Fire Golem]

I'd forgotten about that, I love that story. BCK writes very well, and I'd love to see that as a film. Well reminded, thanks!

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Octavia licked her dry lips before speaking.

 

"What did you want to do with your life?" she asked. "I told you the truth: I’d always dreamed of guiding such a warship, and for better or worse, fate gave me what I wished for. But what about you? Do you mind if I ask?"

 

Talos laughed again, that same whispering chuckle, and tapped the defiled aquila emblazoned across his chest.

 

"I wanted to be a hero." A moment later, he masked his scarred face behind his skulled helm. Red eye lenses stared at her, devoid of all emotion. "And look how that worked out."

[Kastor Krieg]

Q: Sell me on the Night Lords?

A: Here

Who is that?

Unnamed "generic" Night Lords traitor Librarian, new from Forge World, recently unveiled.

[Xin Ceithan]

You ask the wrong question here....

The VIIIth do not "sell" their Legion.

Nostramans sell their kids TO the Legion!!

 

We come for you, not the other Way around.

;)

[Robzilla]

A-D-B.

His work featuring the legion is nothing but wonderful.

Whilst only focusing on certain aspects (like talos and Sevatar) he manages to show that there is a degree of nobility and heroism, indeed even if it is only practical and out of a hope to be better than their base nature.

He, by use of allusion and reference shows the other sides of the legion, the cowardice, the betrayals, and the craving of power. They are cruel and vicious at their best and far worse at their worst. As a legion they represent the worst of humanity, made out of necessity, and all too self aware.

 

The legion itself is that varied, that you can really create your own feel for it. From the 'heroes' of first claw who try their best to keep the old ideals alive, to the bloody handed tyrant, like Sevatar who keeps the legion in line out of fear of reprisal. Much more so than other legions I feel their forces are shaped by their leaders.

 

But in short: read ADBs works. All of them!

Especially the night Lord stuff though

[Charlo]

A rite of war that lets you take a squad with Volkite Chargers that infiltrate to get in range.

 

That alone almost got me to do them!

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I'd recommend reading this short piece by Brother Chaplian Kage: We Have Come For You

 

I save that post of his in my reference folder and it still makes me love Night Lords, there is literally nothing else I can think of that would better sell the Night Lords.

 

Aww, shucks. :)

[Nomus Sardauk]

@Charlo: "We have come for CHOOM!"

[Hellath]

I might also like to clarify a fact about their "cowardice". As any other Astartes, the Night Lords cannot experiment fear (as stated in A-D-B's brilliant trilogy). They, however, generally value their own lives more than the greater goals (notable exceptions can be found, of course, but no spoilers here). Also, if brotherhood is a really compelling selling point for you, you can theme your army around Sevatar's figure. I quote: 

 

'Because we are brothers. We’ve seen primarchs die to blade and fire, and we’ve seen our actions set the galaxy aflame. We’ve betrayed others and been betrayed in kind.

We’re bleeding for an uncertain future, fighting a war for the lies our lords tell us. What do we have left, if not blood’s loyalty? I am here because you are here. Because we are brothers.’

 

– Jago Sevatarion, ‘Sevatar’, the Prince of Crows 

 

It is obvious that loyalty and brotherhood, even in its most Nostraman-twisted flavour, was important to Sevatar, and the Atramentar's loyalty is good testimony to that. And it is a great model too!

 

I hope this helps. 

[misterkho]

The night lords are the most brutal and vicious legion to me..the absolute :cusss you love to hate. If it weren't for those annoyingly lightning bolts all over their armor i'd start an army right away..In my opinion they are by far the most legion legion to play with...But i'm never going to paint those silly lighningbolts over them.