Sell me on the Night Lords?

[Kizzdougs]

Dude, read the Night Lords books by AD-B if you haven't.

Quoted for truth :tu: ADB's NL books have probably had the biggest influence of any BL books so far on the popularity and following of a particular Space Marine Legion/Chapter. When the NL books were released it seemed like every man and his dog started a NL army.

 

ABD shows some of the more human characteristics of the VIIIth Legion. They might not be as glorious or honourable as many of the other Legions, but I'm okay with that. I appreciate their sense of self preservation, something that many other astartes lack. It gives them a bit more depth of character. I also enjoy their cynicism and the fact that they were one of the first legions to see through the Imperium's/Emperor's hypocrisy.

 

Plus the colour scheme, grisly trophies, and scavenged gear and armour are to awesome to ignore ;)

[Isengrin]

Regarding their cowardice, there's a page in Massacre about the events at Velekshar, where Night Lords leave an attached Iron Warriors fleet back to bite the dust against an ork space hulk. It surely wasn't the honorable thing to do, but they don't fight battles they can't win. More than anything, they play the odds and exploit weaknesses. And in the end they defeated the orks and reclaimed Velekshar.

 

They also might have enjoyed watching the IW going down in flames. 

[Nova_chron]

You guys are evil masterminds I swear I literally just finished my first squad of Vylka the other day and now I want to paint some midnight blue.

[Nomus Sardauk]

@Isengrin: Not to mention all those recoverable ships and free wargear to be looten off their still-warm corpses just lying around, free for the taking...

[Isengrin]

Exactly. 

[Fire Golem]

You guys are definitely helping  I've started the NL trilogy while I'm at work today. I definitely like how different the NL feel to the other legions, they operate very differently and have a very unique outlook.

[Millicant]

As far as victories or competency, I feel obliged to mention that Horus sent them to hold up the entire First Legion out in Thramas and they did so quite effectively. While I despise the plot device that ended the conflict, I've always loved the concept of those years spent chasing the Night Lords around. Cowardice? Perhaps, but not for its own sake. For a purpose and to great effect in the bigger picture.

[Balthamal]

One thing I forgot to include in my indepth post was that out of all the Legions covered so far, the VIII have the rules that most perfectly represent themselves on the tabletop. Performing better when having the advantage of numbers? Check. Being more efficient under cover of darkness? Check. Running away further than everyone else? Check

[Hellath]

You guys are definitely helping  I've started the NL trilogy while I'm at work today. I definitely like how different the NL feel to the other legions, they operate very differently and have a very unique outlook.

Please, let us know what you think. I am feeling the urge to read the trilogy for the third, fourth time?

[godking]

In regards to ''cowardice''

 

I don't believe astartes who have been genetically modified to not be able to experience fear can really comment on the ''cowardice" of others.

 

If you cannot experience fear then you don't really know what courage is.

 

The Nightlords are no more "cowardly" then the other legions they simply more pragmatic about when to risk their lives.

[Fire Golem]

I know I started this ages ago (I'm hoping it's okay to threadomancy a thread you started...) but I finally got round to reading the Night Lords trilogy and oh my, I see exactly what you guys meant. Absolutely amazing books. One thing I noticed when I was reading was that Talos seemed to be really frustrated with the legion for the same reasons that I had some issues with them. I'm really impressed with how ADB made me empathise and feel emotions towards a sadistic bunch of murderers. And I definitely feel like I understand them more now, and I like how they know their flaws and 'own' them.

[Sepher]

Happy to hear it! If you want a more objective look at the Night Lords Forge World's Betrayal covers them very well and shows some of the Legion's character before the Night Haunter.

 

That trilogy is also brilliant. My buddy had me read it as my introduction to Warhammer and it hooked me from the start.

[Withershadow]

I mean, it's worth underscoring that Talos is not typical by Night Lords standards, and he was still a cold torturing psychopath on his best day. At no point is he a remotely admirable person, he just happens to be a smudgion more human than the rest. That's what makes that trilogy such an interesting read.

 

This is a hard Legion to love. You can find some grain of worth in their early early Crusade incarnation while they were still mostly Terrans exacting horrendous vengeance on traitors and dissidents. Once Nostromo comes into the picture, it's a swift decline with few to no redeeming qualities to be found. The other way to approach them is if you are the type to root for the villain(s) in slasher flicks and Rob Zombie movies, then you probably play Night Lords already. :P

[carlisimo]

 

Dude, read the Night Lords books by AD-B if you haven't.

I'm going to read them once I've finished Pharos

 

 

I don't think they're well characterized at all in Pharos.  Night Lords charging blindly into bolter fire, really?  They're the last legion that would fight that way.

 

Anyway, glad to hear ADB's trilogy is giving you something to connect with.

 

Curze is surprisingly complex, and a great model, too.  His curse is that he sees the future, especially the fact that the Emperor is going to kill him one day.  How crazy would that drive you?  He's also upset by the fact that he and his legion were designed for a particular role and are good at it, but don't get any respect for it (and are considered sick and insane).  I think he assumed that the Emperor would be killing him because he wasn't needed anymore - a fear some of the other primarchs shared - and that started a spiral of paranoia and bitterness that ended up as a self-fulling prophecy.

[Sulemain]

I've always thought their was a deep and abiding cowardness to the Night Lords which their own refusal to recognise made them v. interesting. 

[Withershadow]

I don't think it's so much cowardice as simply a lack of martial pride.  They don't feel they have anything to prove, don't need to feel themselves tested by a worthy opponent, and find preying on the weak a lot easier and more profitable than getting into pissing contests.  In a way, they are the opposite in their approach to the Alpha Legion, who goes to extra lengths to prove just how capable they are, and intentionally stack the deck against themselves just to have a greater challenge to overcome. 
 

[Sulemain]

I don't think it's so much cowardice as simply a lack of martial pride.  They don't feel they have anything to prove, don't need to feel themselves tested by a worthy opponent, and find preying on the weak a lot easier and more profitable than getting into pissing contests.  In a way, they are the opposite in their approach to the Alpha Legion, who goes to extra lengths to prove just how capable they are, and intentionally stack the deck against themselves just to have a greater challenge to overcome. 

 

 

Not just on the field of battle, I mean as a general attitude. Even legions as brutal as the Iron Hands were fundamentally idealist; their brutality and forcefulness a way of beating the galaxy into a safe place for humanity. 

 

The Night Lords saw the cruelty and injustice of the galaxy, and rejoiced in it. They abdicated their responsibility. 

[JagoSevatarion]

The VIII legion may not be a top tier tabletop legion at the moment but it has some of there greatest fluff and top black library tales. The Talos trilogy are amazing books but not a patch on the Prince of Crows novella which really fleshed out the NL in the age of Heresy. Just stay away from the Painted Count - a terrible read. 

[Brother Heinrich]

I find it quite hard to respect them.

That's because we aren't respectable. If you want honor, courage, strong bonds of brotherhood, a stirling martial record, and a primarch who you'd follow into hell and back then you need to look elsewhere. We are literally the exact opposite of all those things. What we are is predators and survivors. That's it. You either identify or you don't.

 

[Paradigm]

Predators and Survivors. (Really like this Heinrich)

 

We are a legion that cares nothing for war for its own sake. Our legion sees the truth. Astartes are parasites. Astartes were a mistake. The Night Lords knew this from the beginning, or at least close to it. Tribal knowledge of one's own ultimate redundancy is enough to drive anyone to cruelty and base instinct. But, tribal knowledge isn't necessary truth. Outliers like Talos, and Sahaal interpreted it differently. From their legion, and from each other, but still ended up just like their brothers, more or less. The Night Lords, of all twenty legions, represent the inevitability of fate.

 

When you know the world is about to end, will you stand up as a beacon of light, or do whatever you want, knowing there will never be consequences?

 

Ultimately the Night Lords are the most honest of the legions, and are reconciled to knowing it wont matter how the Heresy (or Long war) plays out, because they were doomed from birth, and know it. And cowardice? Hardly. When you know the truth you just don't give a damn what anyone else thinks.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Fortnight

[Brother Heinrich]

At the end of the day every legion is simply a tool. If you haven't read Master of Mankind yet I suggest you do so. It'll put the entire universe into perspective for you, a perspective that some of the legions and maybe 1 or two primarchs actually had. There's a quote in it from the Emperor himself where he is talking about the impossibility of removing Angron's cybernetic implants without killing him. He says that despite the implants effect, "A broken Primarch is still a Primarch". 

 

A tool can still do a job, even if it doesn't work as well as others or perform the same task as other tools. The Night Lords, while a broken and fractious legion, were still a legion of genetically modified super soldiers. That still counts for something. but at the end of the day, every legion is still just a tool in the arsenal of mankind.

 

At least the night lords (for the most part) understood their place in things. The legions that struggled the most were all those who saw the Emperor as a father or grandfather and grappled with these feelings familial devotion to a figure who ultimately saw them as nothing more than a walking weapon, which they all are. In all honesty the legions that drape themselves in glory and high minded ideals of civic virtue and noble concepts of brotherhood and loving devotion to their primarch, are just a sad, sad joke.

 

Essentially It'd be like walking in on your kitchen knives having a tea party and them saying "look at what a lovely family we are! Why don't you join us father!" You wouldn't have tea with your kitchen cutlery, their purpose is to cut things for you. Same goes for the legions. Don't overthink it like Horus did.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Brother Heinrich

[Kizzdougs]

At the end of the day every legion is simply a tool. If you haven't read Master of Mankind yet I suggest you do so. It'll put the entire universe into perspective for you, a perspective that some of the legions and maybe 1 or two primarchs actually had. There's a quote in it from the Emperor himself where he is talking about the impossibility of removing Angron's cybernetic implants without killing him. He says that despite the implants effect, "A broken Primarch is still a Primarch". 

 

A tool can still do a job, even if it doesn't work as well as others or perform the same task as other tools. The Night Lords, while a broken and fractious legion, were still a legion of genetically modified super soldiers. That still counts for something. but at the end of the day, every legion is still just a tool in the arsenal of mankind.

 

At least the night lords (for the most part) understood their place in things. The legions that struggled the most were all those who saw the Emperor as a father or grandfather and grappled with these feelings familial devotion to a figure who ultimately saw them as nothing more than a walking weapon, which they all are. In all honesty the legions that drape themselves in glory and high minded ideals of civic virtue and noble concepts of brotherhood and loving devotion to their primarch, are just a sad, sad joke.

 

Essentially It'd be like walking in on your kitchen knives having a tea party and them saying "look at what a lovely family we are! Why don't you join us father!" You wouldn't have tea with your kitchen cutlery, their purpose is to cut things for you. Same goes for the legions. Don't overthink it like Horus did.

Spoken like a true son of the VIII^th...

 

I think the cutlery analogy is a bit too strong. I feel that a better analogy would have the Emperor as a king/president and the Primarchs are his generals. Yes, they can be used as tools to achieve political ends via military means, but they are much more than simple cutlery... Or maybe a farmer and his working dogs. Yes the dogs can be put down if they start killing sheep or sold if they refuse to work, but there will often be something of a sentimental/emotional connection between the farmer and his dogs. 

 

Also in regards to tMoM, don't forget that when the Emperor refers to the Primarchs by their numeral he is "talking" with either members of the Mechanicum (Land) or his Custodes. This is really important because whenever the Emperor communicates with someone their understanding is heavily influenced by each individual's own bias and predisposition. The Emperor usually communicates psychically and the message received is shaped to suit the individual recipient. For example Arkhan Land is a scientist, so when the Emperor talks to him, the Emperor uses very sterile and scientific language. He refers to the Primarch as 'weapons' and by their Legion numeral. It is similar with the Custodes who hold the Primarchs in contempt after Horus' betrayal (the Emperor refers to Horus as "the XVIth" when speaking to Diocletian). I'm pretty sure that AD-B has made this point in another thread.

 

Night Haunter's interpretation of the role of the Primarchs and the Emperor's intention for them and humanity is shaped by his own limitations. His experience on Nostramo shaped how he interpreted the Emperor's intention and message. In a way it is a self-fulfilling prophecy - the Night Haunter never tried to be anything more than a tool, and therefor he was a tool (a broken tool). Yes being a weapon of war was a large aspect of each of the Primarchs's purpose, but there was room to be more if they were so inclined. Do you think that the Emperor had plans for the Primarchs/Legions once the Webway had been secured for humanity?

[Brother Heinrich]

True enough @Kizzdougs, the working dog analogy is maybe a more apt one. Though whether or not the Emperor's thoughts are interpreted in any way because of the method of their delivery, his actions show a man who's basically worried about such high level stuff that Primarchs and their squabbles are just about as annoying as having your hunting dogs suddenly decide to divide forces and fight one another because you left them in the yard and said you had important stuff to take care of inside the house.

 

Remember this is the man who signed off on the murder of every thunder warrior whose guns and blades are the reason Terra was unified in the first place. So lets not kid ourselves about him being a loving father figure. 

[CaptainStabby]

Space Batman.

 

Done.

[bluntblade]

Curze is the inverse of Magnus in some ways. One doomed because he tries to fight the future, the other because he resigns himself to it.