Number of Battle Barges for a Second Founding Chapter

[Phoebus]

I'd like to solicit opinions as to how many battle barges an Unforgiven Chapter of the Second Founding might realistically posses and could possible have.

 

Historically, most chapters are said to possess two or three battle barges. That's an old saying dating back to the days of Battlefleet Gothic. Much of the recent lore does back that up, however, with newer codices showing the Ultramarines in possession of three battle barges, the Imperial Fists having at least three, and the Blood Angels fielding two such vessels. The Black Templars are said to have "many" battle barges, and a number of stories list name besides the Eternal Crusader. That having been said, the Black Templars are even to this day implied to be larger than a Codex Chapter (as opposed to being described as such outright, as with past editions) and it would make sense they would have an unusually large fleet. The lore is never consistent, though, is it? A number of different sources name six other Ultramarines battle barges. Even if most of those are to be discounted (coming from a White Dwarf article, but not an Index Astartes entry), one of those was in another codex (though it was destroyed in the last two centuries, I think). Furthermore, the Blood Angels have suffered terribly in recent centuries, and it would make sense that their fleets would have been diminished accordingly.

 

Not too many Second Founding Chapters have their fleets described in any detail. At one extreme, we have the Black Templars and their "many battle barges" (as last edition's Codex: Space Marines put it); a number of novels, short stories, etc., name four such vessels besides the Eternal Crusader. The Black Templars are implied to be larger than a Codex Chapter, though, and it would make sense they'd have an unusually large fleet. At the other extreme, we have the Flesh Tearers with their single (albeit very impressive) battle barge, Victus. Their situation is very similar to that of the Blood Angels, however, and, again, it would make sense if their fleet suffered proportionately. Inbetween, we have the rare mention of the White Consuls, whose number of battle barges is more or less qualified as three.

 

Depressingly, there aren't any official sources (that I know of) giving an indication of how large the Unforgiven Successors' fleets are. The latest Codex: Dark Angels, however, shows the Dark Angels in possession of an enormous fleet - one far larger than those shown in earlier codices for any chapter, and second only to that of the Space Wolves. Now, this could be an example of power creep, and the next Codex: Space Marines may show the Ultramarines having a fleet comparable (if not larger) than that of the Dark Angels. Either way, though, is the naval strength of the Dark Angels reason enough to justify, say, four battle barges in the fleet of a fleet-based Second Founding Unforgiven Chapter?

I know the answer to this question ultimately boils down to "whatever you like," but I'm far more interested in ensuring that my work (for the Brotherhood of the Angels event) is respectful of the extant lore.

[Grand Master Belial]

With a fleet based chapter, it is more concievable that they would have a few more. The Ultramarines and the Blood Angels both have homeworlds and wouldn't need the extra ship(s) to protect some of their precious resources. Likewise, a fleet based chapter would need a few more big ships to protect their armory, forges, relics, librarium and to keep the Librarians away in case they summon a daemon. You would need a place to store the vault with the gene-seed on something very secure so that were the ship ever ambushed, it would still be able to get away after taking a pounding.

 

Battle barges are rare because of their internal structure and the massive amount of time it takes to build one. They are still being made but I'm sure there is a long list of orders at the shipyard to build more but that core that makes up the spine in the fluff was supposed to be very rare to get that much material and to fabricate.

[Phoebus]

With a fleet based chapter, it is more concievable that they would have a few more. The Ultramarines and the Blood Angels both have homeworlds and wouldn't need the extra ship(s) to protect some of their precious resources. Likewise, a fleet based chapter would need a few more big ships to protect their armory, forges, relics, librarium and to keep the Librarians away in case they summon a daemon. You would need a place to store the vault with the gene-seed on something very secure so that were the ship ever ambushed, it would still be able to get away after taking a pounding.

 

Battle barges are rare because of their internal structure and the massive amount of time it takes to build one. They are still being made but I'm sure there is a long list of orders at the shipyard to build more but that core that makes up the spine in the fluff was supposed to be very rare to get that much material and to fabricate.

All of your points make great sense, Grand Master Belial. Would you amend your position at all if this fleet-based chapter had a fortress-monastery in the form of a Ramilies-class Star Fortress?

 

Full disclosure:

 

My current structure has a Ramilies as a fortress monastery. My original idea for the fleet centered on two battle barges. The basis of this was 50% the structure of a Great Crusade-era Chapter from Horus Heresy: Betrayal (whose diagram uses a single battle barge as a flagship) and 50% story (them gaining a second battle barge following events related to Abaddon's First Black Crusade). Since then things have shifted and their fleet size was arbitrary... with three battle barges because that "might make sense" for a Second Founding Chapter.

 

I don't like arbitrary concepts, though, and I'm toying around with this idea... The chapter's Apothecarion, Armorium, Forge, Librarius, Reclusiam, etc., are all incorporated in the Ramilies-class fortress monastery. The chapter fields four battle barges - one for each of its Companies of the Vanguard (Battle Companies). The fleet is rounded out by seven strike cruisers and a number of escort vessels. The First Company and the Companies of the Reserve use the fortress-monastery as their base of operations.

[Canadian_F_H]

I remember reading a snippet here and there that at least some battle barges are actually retrofits of other classes of imperial warship from the great crusade and horus heresy.

 

Examples escape me however...

[Grand Master Belial]

Might drop to three with the Ramilies, but four is still plausible. After all, the fort needs to be defended too.

 

I'm outside right now and away from a decent computer but doesn't a barge hold THREE companies? Whereas, a strike cruiser would hold ONE? Four barges and a fair number of cruisers would at least be able to evacuate the fort should things go sideways, that is if there are that many survivors and the ships haven't been turned to scrap defending the base.

 

Side note: I take it you are not doing a mobile 2nd. If so then they would probably be scattered amongst the rest of the ships or on smaller vessels to do what they do best.

[Phoebus]

You are correct on both counts. A battle barge can carry three Companies, whereas a strike cruiser can accommodate but one. And yes, my [Ravenwing] would not be split into independent strike forces. Well, not until the chapter's forces were planet-side, at which point various detachments would be given their individual assignments.

[JeffJedi]

Don't forget the right of conquest and salvage. Sometimes a Chapter will be called in to wipe out a rebellious Chapter and get their ships as a spoil of war.

[Phoebus]

Don't forget the right of conquest and salvage. Sometimes a Chapter will be called in to wipe out a rebellious Chapter and get their ships as a spoil of war.

Good point. I'd forgotten those. Now let me ask you, do you think those are already taken into consideration when we read that most chapters have 2-3 battle barges?

 

I think you guys have made some solid arguments. I think I might move ahead with four battle barges.