Tyriks Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 So, a few weeks ago on vacation I read the book Deus Encarmine (the first one) and part of the second before my kindle died (no time to finish it since then). In that book, the Blood Angels are pretty clearly portrayed as actively worshiping the Emperor. Rafen makes a shrine to him, prays to him, confesses his sins to him, and people just casually refer to him as a god throughout. Are BA supposed to worship him? I thought that currently the Black Templars were the only first or second founding chapter that worshiped him. Is this an oversight or do other books show them as actually worshiping him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon Nightman Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I hope not! Or at least my successor doesn't. I'm curious about this as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marine7312000 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 A lot of people dislike Swallow's BA books as they don't exactly follow the fluff.That being said, on this particular topic, I can't recall one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Yeah it wasn't great but I just wanted to get into BA a little more. I felt like the casualties were too high too consistently and people's competence was based completely on what would move the plot. Are there better books to read? That a little off topic I guess, but I'm sure the op won't mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plokoone Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 James Swallow also wrote that Sanguinius had black hair in "Fear to Tread". Can a Black Library author not go to google images before writing about someone's physical appearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 To be fair, it is sort of said that Sanguinius had all colours of hair, or that, like the Emperor he can change his appearance psychicly. People see what they want to see of him and such. At least, I heard that on a podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I think he's described as having black hair in one of the early HH books too... No idea about the Emperor worship, but don't all chapters do so in one way or the other? Before the HH mankind had done away with such nonsense but post-HH they're in a kind of second dark ages. Or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildrcheese Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Yeah, my understanding is that all Chapters revere the Emperor as a God and Worship him. It's not like the enlightened times of the great crusade, the only way the Imperium can hold itself together without the guidance of the Emperor is to raise him to the position of a deity. EDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Antodeniel Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I would rather said that, to understand the Blood Angels Story/Fluff, you need to consider its inspiration sources. 1 - Blood Angels and successors are a strongly Christian Themed army. And by this parrallel, it is effectively clear that, the Emperor is God, and Sanguinius the Christ. 2 - If Black Templars army is build around the Teutonic Order Theme, the Blood Angels are build around a more free version of the Fallen-Paradise Angels / Knights Templar / Canons_Regular_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre Themes. 3 - For most Blood Angels the principle of Deitie is Canon. The Emperor is a God in is own right, Sanguinius, his Son who sacrificied his live so that his father and humanity may still be free of Chaos, and in the end, the Blood Angels and successors, who are Sanguinius Sons by blood and honor, are Angels whose task is to protect mankind from any perils. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Plus, to complete your thoughts, in Flesh Tearers novel, the Deitie representation of the Emperor and Sanguinius are cleary present in many scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 See, that's what happens when you muck around with the core concepts of the setting. The audience gets totally confused. Templars were unique BECAUSE they never worshipped the Emperor as anything else than Epitome of Mankind, never a god. Some rare Chapters aligned with Ecclesiarchy fully, while most others kept separate counsel on His divinity or "godlike" influence across the galaxy. Now it's all on its head. Thanks GeeDub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 C:SM says, "With the lone exception of the Black Templars, Space Marines have never acknowledged the doctrines or religious supremacy of the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marine chapters care little for the ravings of the Ecclesiarchy's priests, and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Creed in favor of their own ancient traditions. While the Adeptus Ministorum has gradually extended its influence throughout the galaxy, it has failed to sway the Space Marine cults." So, seems like BA should not be involved in Emperor worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Not quite. What that means is that Space Marine chapters don't follow the Imperial Creed. Nothing more, nothing less. The Imperial Creed isn't the only way to worship the Emperor, merely the most common in the Imperium, and the official religion. Think of it like Catholicism in 16th Century Europe. The predominant religion, and one with institutional power, but not the only one around. The various cults of the Space Marines will differ from chapter to chapter. Some might worship the Emperor as a God, some might not, some might see him as a messianic figure or they might revere him as a man of power, worth following the example of. The key is that Space Marine cults aren't the Imperial Creed, and you can't say conclusively any other single thing about all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Found another relevant snippet from C:SM. "Yet strangest of all is the Black Templars’ absolute conviction, in contrast to all other Space Marine Chapters, that the Emperor is a god. The Chapter’s worship of the Emperor as a divine being is seen by many as abhorrent, yet it has led to them forming strong ties with the Ecclesiarchy, and lends them frenzied strength in battle." This was what I remember seeing before that led me to think BA shouldn't worship the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Antodeniel Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 To clear, the think about the difference of forms a worship can take, here are the reminders : - Most Astartes chapter do not believe in the Emperor as a God, nor in the Imperial Creed of the Ecclesiarchy. Yet, they all tend to possess very various approches about the concept of the "God Emperor". This leading some to see the Emperor as the "Ultimate human", other as the "Exemple", some other as the "Ultimate Warrior"...etc. Some even worship the Emperor as a God in an Mystic way, or as the God of Death.... - Black Templars and few others chapters have choose to worship the Emperor as a God. The most recent of those chapter tend to follow strictly the Imperial Creed and are close allied of the Ecclesiarchy, while the Black Templar to their Seniority and the fact that they inspired, in some way, the Ecclesiarchy are more seen as some kind of "Ancient" who have right to decide what is right and what is wrong in the Worship. This way, we can imagine, with reasons, that Senechals hold as much ideological power as an Ecclesiarch Cardinal. - Blood Angels and successors, due to the Particularity of their Gene-seed (As recently explain through the recent HH informations), their Primarch history and personality, and finally their chapter very identity, tend to worship the Emperor and Their Primarch as Deities, a God for the First, an Herald of God for the Second, making of the Blood Angels true Angels acting under God will. (For the Blood Angels, the very concept of becoming an Astartes is an act of Ascension, from which a Low Humans emerge as a Full grow Blood Angels. Their Primarch being their Father, and the Emperor their Grand-father). So comparing the Black Templar and Blood Angels worship of the Emperor, we can say that the First adhere to the Imperial Creed and are kind of exemples of it, while the Blood Angels possess their own Creed. Plus, those Creeds are separate by a minor concept that is cause of the greatest rift, and it is the fact that the Black Templars see the Emperor as a Distant God, while, for the Blood Angels, the Emperor is as much of a God as he is their Grand-father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 My interpretation is a bit different. Much like with chaos space marines, there are those that believe in gods, those that worship the gods, those that acknowledged but believe in themselves, and then the atheistesque marines. In years past it has been noted that a lot of marines treat the emperor as the defining figure of the imperium and study him more so than worship. I view this much like we study Churchill, Roosevelt, Musolinne, Hitler, etc. or King Richard, George, Henry, James etc. and in the Americas the Founding Fathers; Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Washington, Hamilton, Jackson etc. or like Greek mythology of the great warriors of legends. And less like Christianity, Islam, etc. All great or infamous individuals that have grown into legends in their own right. This isn't to say all space marines do this, as many believe he has some influence within the warp, and the forbearance to physically "protect" certain individuals. Or influence their fates is a more reasonable answer. The space marines themselves pay homage to the emperor but view the primarchs in a more fatheresque light and treat them as diety like beings, etc. Edit: But I also believe space marines are immortal in the same since as vampires, lycanthrope etc. and that we don't have much reference of them dying of old age. I know it even states in the newer codices that BA especially have longer lifespans, but I attribute that to being better in combat, rather than dying of old age. A lot of people have a problem with this line of thought though. So just a friendly disclaimer I may not know what the hell in talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pyrofessional Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 James Swallow also wrote that Sanguinius had black hair in "Fear to Tread". Can a Black Library author not go to google images before writing about someone's physical appearance? on the fear to tread cover he has blonde hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 James Swallow also wrote that Sanguinius had black hair in "Fear to Tread". Can a Black Library author not go to google images before writing about someone's physical appearance? on the fear to tread cover he has blonde hair. Ha slight oversight there :D I'm interested to see how the FW studio paint the primarch model... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon Nightman Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Off topic, but is fear to tread worth it? Been debating it, but I hear bad things about the author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pyrofessional Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Off topic, but is fear to tread worth it? Been debating it, but I hear bad things about the author. H Yes it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marine7312000 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Off topic, but is fear to tread worth it? Been debating it, but I hear bad things about the author. H Yes it is Seconded. Outside of brief appearances in other books, this is our only novel so far in the heresy timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 It's the best book James Swallow has ever written, in my opinion. It's got a lot of his trademark problems, like weirdly excessive casualties, hypercompetent protagonists, and issues with inconsistent scope regarding plot, but all but that last one actually manage to not be a problem, thanks to the shift in tone with the heresy. It's not an issue that hundreds of Blood Angels die in every battle, because there's literally hundreds of thousands of them, and those sorts of casualties are expected in the heresy. It's not an issue that Azkalleon, Ralderon and Amit are as larger than life as they are, because they're Heroes of the Great Crusade, and we'd expect nothing less. No-one thinks Sanguinius pile-driving a Keeper of Secrets is over the top, because he's a fething primarch, and that's what they do. Really, Black Library should have gotten Swallow writing Heresy books earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon Nightman Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Do other legions suffer a lot of casualties too in their books or do we just end up looking like incompetent and losing more than normal? Back on topic, I really like Antodeniel's interpretation above! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Enormous casualties are pretty much par for the course in all the heresy novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Edit: But I also believe space marines are immortal in the same since as vampires, lycanthrope etc. and that we don't have much reference of them dying of old age. I know it even states in the newer codices that BA especially have longer lifespans, but I attribute that to being better in combat, rather than dying of old age. A lot of people have a problem with this line of thought though. So just a friendly disclaimer I may not know what the hell in talking about. Nah it is specifically stated that we are THE longest lived astartes naturally, but conversely one of the hardest to manufacture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 I think it was in the BRB but maybe C:SM, but one of them said that even the primarchs would eventually die of old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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