Concept Testing: Space Marine Rehab

[OutlawSixActual]

So I started playing  in '96-'97 when I was in middle school - 2nd Edition Ultramarines were my guys, and over the course of the next several years they evolved and grew.  I stopped playing the game around 2000, but still collected and painted - I loved the fluff.  By 1999 I had my own chapter (the Tormentors, who I finally wrote about on here a few years later, along with some of their buddy Chapters).  They went through a couple different color schemes, but then 2004 came around, and as I went on to college I kept the fluff and ideas around in my head, the models in my closet at my parents' house.  Fast forward to last year, and I was at home visiting my parents when I found all my old stuff - and decided that, slowly, I want to ease back into the modeling and (maybe) gameplay side of things.
 
As I get back into it, I'm seeing that I have tons of stuff in various stages of disrepair, and everything will have to be repainted (I had infantry in gray, land speeders in blue, and tanks in green..).  It's time to finally get my stuff back in order... but I don't even own a paintbrush right now so that will take some time.  Over the course of the next few months or years, I hope to slowly get everything built back up to a consistent standard, and eventually paint to have a playable (or at least displayable) army.
 
The Predator!
This was the very last model I had purchased - in 2004.
 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3185_zpsdwinl7ae.jpg
 
That's more than a decade of dust on the tank.  The sandbags and much of the stowage was made from some kind of gummy rubbery candy that melted and slide down the tank over the years.  This baby needs some work.
 
Here is a before picture:

 

Open spoiler for more "before" detail:

 

 

 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3186_zpsgz3oaanm.jpg
 
And the after, now that I've finished the first stage of upgrades:
 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3187_zpsg8fr6wyk.jpg
 
 
What's the difference?  It's inside!
 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3188_zpstuarbm45.jpg
 

 

 

 

I decided that I want to have one tank of each type with a fully modeled interior - so not just "it has an interior" but "this is a plausible true interior."  For example, there are tons of Predators with interior detailing, but almost none of them can actually fit a Marine in the turret, or have correctly scaled seats, etc.  In my case, I'm taking guidance from the Forgeworld books and modifying as necessary to make everything work.  I like the idea of having a "demonstration day" where my Astartes roll out their tanks, open up all the hatches, and serfs or whatever can peer inside and take a look.  So, everything must be visually correct, AND have the ability to install or remove crew members.
 
The model I am using is the old metal attack bike gunner - he has a sufficiently compact pose that fits how squeezed one would need to be.  I've found (so far) that I actually think the Rhino chassis is correctly scaled to these old metal minis - and the newer plastic spread poses have simply outgrown them.  But we will see.
 
here are some more photos - you can see that almost everything is in line with the Predator schematic in Imperial Amour Volume 2:

 

Open spoiler for more photos/detail:

 

 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3192_zpsx0i7apxy.jpg
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3193_zpsewdbxtqo.jpg
 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3194_zps5j8kl7or.jpghttp://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3196_zpsigbvjrwj.jpg
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3204_zpszewkoer8.jpg
 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3190_zpslca8u2sb.jpg
 
 
Unfortunately, I will have to wait to build up the interior of the Predator Chassis itself on a new model, since my current Predator body is all glued up and it'll be impossible to model in there completely.  That's going to have to wait, since the only "in construction" chassis I have right now is scheduled to be built up as either a Rhino or Razorback (I'm going to find a way to fit 10 brothers in there... one way or another!)  But here are some views of the turret cradle inside with some light:
 
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3206_zpsdd94kgox.jpg
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Predator%20Interior/IMG_3207_zps1slsksgo.jpg
 
It'll be a while before the next update - I'll have to order a new Predator box before I can start building up the inside. In the meantime, I'm working up some designs for a good remote controlled storm-bolter - I want a one piece solution that mounts the searchlight, smoke launchers, storm bolter, and HK missile altogether - but it also has to be modular so that if you don't want the storm bolter and missile, it doesn't look "out of place."

 

 

 
Comments and ideas most welcome!

[Doctor Perils]

Cool idea brother :) And welcome back to the hobby side of the hobby :P

 

Have you considered magnetization ?

[deathspectersgt7]

Cool . And welcome back.

[NightHunters]

This is right up my boulevard!

 

I am always giving mine workable interiors, except the Preds.

 

Have tried any number of gun cradles but was always thinking too big, but a one man turret fits the bill perfectly!

 

Top work, really looking forward to seeing this progress!!

 

Edit: on the storm bolter, HK, SL think about a flip up system, rather than the top hatch. More like the TOW launcher from a Bradley or the side mounted aux weapons systems of the Marder IFV.

Did the same for my preds, and can give the turret more size, which I like. Maybe co-ax the Storm bolter?

 

Apologies, rant over - you carry on!

[OutlawSixActual]

Thanks for the comments!  So I got distracted today on the topic of scale.  I get obsessed with the dumb stuff (I made a big long ranting post on the scale of a bolter round before), and figured that if I want to go any further with building out the interiors of these, I want to make sure I understand what kind of scale I'm working with.

 

We all know that 40k's scale is cartoony, BUT I've always held the popular belief that Space Marines are actually correctly scaled - it's everyone else that is oversized and that therefore makes us seem smaller.  To that end, out of necessity I'm a disciple of Veteran Sergeant's truescaling when it comes to foot troops (enough for the visual difference without being massive), but honestly I think that the Space Marine vehicles are properly scaled to the basic Marine models - the problem being that the poses and builds are so bulky and 'spread out' that it's hard to imagine them fitting in the vehicle.

 

The classic conundrum is the "can 10 Space Marines actually fit in the Rhino?"  Well, I've seen the debates online, but I figured I'll never truly be satisfied until I try and fail myself.

 

First, let's lay out the rules:  In my mind, the Rhino must carry 11 - a full 10-man squad, and an extra driver.  This is the only way that a full 10 man squad can disembark, right, since we don't trust smart tanks and the like?  In my fluff, a 10 man squad will typically drive itself when possible (so 9 on foot and 1 driving), but when all 10 are needed on the ground, a Marine is seconded from either one of the Devastator squad boltgunners, the Reserve company, etc.  It would be a waste of a superhuman Marine for him to be a full time Rhino driver.

 

Of that 11, two are in the front (driver, and one manning the storm bolter), and 9 are squeezed in the rear.

 

So here's what I've got:

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/IMG_3213_zpsyusyjb0w.jpg

 

That is nine full Tactical Marines squeezed into the back.

ALMOST!  I ended up modifying three Marine's backpacks to make them fit.  I'm convinced that they would all just fit if I thinned out the walls a bit in the rear and fixed the awkwardly shapped indent (it's needed for the backpacks, but has the diagonal cut toward the rear).  So, on one Marine, I thinned the backpack by 50%.  One one, I cut off one of the vents (it was blocked by the ramp controls - I could have easily removed those controls and created a thinner version, but by this point it was late and I was in "screw it" mode), and one only has the top of the backpack (basically nothing at all).

 

This would have been a breeze if it werent for those pesky backpacks!  They add a significant amount of bulk.

 

Inside the spoiler are some other views:

 

 

 

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/IMG_3216_zpsxomd0ypk.jpg

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/IMG_3218_zpsdjwpy7eq.jpg

 

Now, this is clearly not a comfortable ride for these guys.  I feel it would fit a bit better if the space was just a bit wider, or if the bulkhead was moved up about half a centimeter (seriously, the two guys up in front have got leg room for days).  However, being in an APC has never been meant to be comfortable (google some real world images), and it's just better motivation for the guys to get to their destination and hop out to do their jobs.

 

In addition, during every day travel (if the Rhino is being used at all), I imagine all 10 won't be in there - The driver will come from the squad, so that leaves 8 in the back, and others may be called to operate a Predator/other vehicles for the Company, so it gets roomier in the back - it's only bad when all 10 are going to go seize an objective, and they won't be planning to be in there for long anyway.

 

 

Creating the riders

I was going to sacrifice some dudes, so I found some of the REALLY old guys I had in a box - their sacrifice will be remembered - here they are, posing before getting chopped up:

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/IMG_3208_zpsy7igxxoc.jpg

 

I wanted to get them as close as possible to the width of the metal attack bike gunner - he is narrower than most of the plastic models, so I tried to even it up by shaving the plastic Marine's chest pieces (to get their shoulder pads closer to each other), and then it was just a bunch of hacking and gluing.  I also cut away alot of the cabling and stuff on the back of their torsos - I wanted the backpacks to fit as flush as possible to save space inside the vehicle.

 

These are NOT good conversions - this was just a rough proof of concept so that I can feel a little more confident that the sizes and scaling within the tanks make sense.  I figure that if I care enough later, I'll green stuff them, but I don't right now and it's not like they are going to be part of a diorama or something.  Here are the riders post-op (I haven't started on the driver compartment/10th man, but that's not nearly as much of a concern anyway):

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/IMG_3220_zpsnahjj0fp.jpg

 

Alright, so we've got 4 unpainted, 2 from one of my old experimental chapters (the Hellguard), two Ultramarines, and the only Black Templar I've every painted (right after third came out).  They look super squatty, but that's just how the legs appear as they're hunched over.  They are actually still bulkier than the metal gunner:

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/IMG_3221_zpsrty1brry.jpg

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/IMG_3212_zpsd8s1fnmt.jpg

 

 

 

 

I hope this was a little bit illuminating!  For me, I am sufficiently satisfied that the Rhino is not too undersized - in fact I think it's just about perfect.  I will go ahead and move forward with the Razorback as well - I think it will fit six fine with a turret and ammo assembly running down the middle.

[CorbuloDIY]

This is gold, pure gold, good to rhino's are just grimdark clown cars.

[OutlawSixActual]

Haha yeah, that's true - but to be fair, it's like that with modern day vehicles as well.

 

This thing is meant to carry 13 people (11 in the back plus a driver and commander):

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-80biSKE37_o/UtJvCfEn3NI/AAAAAAAAEMc/3kNKQroiP5Q/s1600/M113-120.png

 

The Bradleys fit 7 in the small rear area - I remember guys laying down on top of the equipment to fit everything.

 

The problem with Marines is that the armor is hard - so you can't exactly squeeze everything together.  You pretty much have to sit awkwardly and hope the ride doesn't take too long :)

[OutlawSixActual]

Foot Slogger Update:

 

So I'm a former infantryman, so I'm a bit biased toward my Tactical Squads.  In the fluff they can do it all (regardless of their abilities on the tabletop), so I wanted to make sure that my Tactical Squads reflect their abilities.  To do this, I laid out a couple of points that I want to adhere to for my army:

 

1. I'm lazy and not a very good modeller.  You've already seen that in some of my amateur plasticard skills.  I understand and embrace this.  So, I want to get the effect and feeling that I want with as little extra effort as possible.
2. Marines are (and need to appear) larger than their human peers.  So, even though I hold the conviction that Space Marines are properly scaled to the vehicles, and everybody else is oversized, I've accepted that I have to truescale my Marines.  I started out following the basic guidelines of VeteranSergeant's spectacular work here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/249349-leave-no-model-unconverted-31mm-space-marines-and-paint/ but made a couple of adjustments:  I found that on some models, the extra leg length can look awkward (plus it's harder - see point 1).  So, instead, I changed how I do the waist spacing, and leave the legs intact.  I've found that they look more natural with gear on.
3. Marines need a lot of gear.  There's really no way around this.  Marines are expected to jump from space to the ground and do whatever mission they need to.  They will never know if they need to be resupplied (A great example would be the Emperor's Childrens' and Luna Wolves' campaign on Murder in the first Heresy novel), where they were essentially lost in the smoke and had to operate on their own.  To do this, they need lots of gear.  So, at a minimum, every Marine carries his bolt pistol sidearm, combat knife, 3 bolter mag pouches, 2 grenades, and 2 bolter mag pouches on their backpacks (each boltgunner in the squad has a buddy boltgunner - they share backpack ammo with each other).  I like to imagine that each pouch contains two tightly-fit magazine, so each Marine carries a minimum of 11 magazines (1 in gun, 6 on kit, 4 in backpack).  With some fire discipline, they can make it last a little while, before needing resupplies shot from orbit or carried to them in a vehicle.
4. Marines have a role within the squad.  Marines have decades and centuries of experience, and they've gotten efficient by streamlining planning and understanding roles on the battlefield.  I'll go into this further when I go over the marines.

 

Now, for Tactical Squad Arturus - 1st Squad, 5th Battle Company, Tormentors Chapter:

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3340_zpsdu659rv8.jpg

 

Follow the spoiler for more detail:

 

 

 

 

Combat Team 1-Alpha:

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3343_zpsmozaoyqh.jpg

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3344_zpstxxcdwdn.jpg

 

Combat Team A, from left to right:

• Veteran Sergeant Arturus (squad leader):  He is the senior sergeant of the Company's second Demi-Company (called a Section in my Chapter), so he can direct the other squads in the Section when needed.
• Brother Balbus (communications):  The Sergeant's right-hand man in the Combat Squad, and carries the squad's special weapon.  Because he's always close to the sergeant, he also handles setting up long range comms when needed (note the radio antenna and extra antenna sections on the backpack)
• Brother Tertius (prisoners, battle tracking): When out of combat, he is responsible for any prisoners the squad needs to come across (hey, it happens sometimes I'm sure), and other times keep track of other unit locations, unit synchronization, etc., and keeps the sergeant aware of what's going on when his focus has to be elsewhere.
• Brother Titanius (demolitions / breach):  He carries the squad's meltabombs, and various other breaching tools when the squad just needs to make a door somewhere.  This is represented by the demo tubes and the rolled up det-portal beneath the backpack - it simply unrolls, sticks to a wall, and blows a Marine-sized doorway for his squad to assault through.
• Brother Masenus (first aid):  While the Apothecaries take care of the grievously wounded and the dead, the line Marines keep each other stable enough so that the Apothecary doesn't have to tear their guts out in the end - they are pretty valuable when kept alive.  Masenus carries the first aid materials to help.

Combat Team 1-Beta:

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3345_zpsrzwynk1v.jpg

 

From left to right:

• Brother Petrus (team leader): He leads this combat team when it splits from the Sergeant's team.  Typically, Team A is the close assault team (hence why they handle prisoner, demolition, breach, and first aid duties), while Team B supports with heavy weapons and precision fire.  He is also the one to step up if the sergeant goes down.  If a sergeant in the company is killed, one of the team leaders from all the company's squads will be selected and promoted to Sergeant to permanently lead that squad.
• Brother Leoman (administration):  In combat, he focuses on providing the heavy weapon support for the squad.  Outside, he handles all of the daily administration of the squad - setting up rituals, getting resources for training, etc.  He does the "office work" for the squad, to the extent that it would exist for them.
• Brother Lucilius (ammunition):  His primary mission is to keep brother Leoman fed with ammunition, but he also carries extra bolter rounds for the rest of the squad - in the form of loaded mags to hand out, and bulk, loose bolts for his brothers to reload their existing magazines.  Lucilius' job is to keep the squad in the action.  He also carries a spare barrel (in a case) for the Leoman's multi-melta.
• Brother Hortenus (marksman/gunner):  Hortenus has earned the highest marks on the firing ranges.  In the squad, he is expected to hit the targets that count, and he is the default tank commander/gunner when the squad is called to crew a Predator or other vehicle.
• Brother Thracius (logistics/driver):  He is the logistics guy.  When he's on foot, he carries all of the squad's long-range food, water, and other sustainment supplies.  That stuff get's heavy, so he's more at home tossing all that stuff in the squad's Rhino when he can.  He is a great driver, so is the go-to brother when the squad is tasked to ride into battle (or crew another tank).

So that's the squad.  Some of the guys still need a knife, but they are complete.  I do need to come up with some more ammo and utility pouches because I'm running out and have the whole rest of the Section to do... so they'll have to wait.  But in the meantime, here are the WIPs for the rest of the Section's sergeants:

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3351_zpsldbpgik7.jpg

 

In the front row stand the squad sergeants - Tac, Tac, Tac, Devastator, Assault, and another Devastator (I wanted a smaller, less awkward-looking Signum for them as well).

 

Behind them are the Company Captain and his Champion:

 

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3347_zps9hkcp9kq.jpg

 

In the Tormentors, the Champion is selected as the Captain's successor - he used to be the 1st Squad's Veteran Sergeant until he was promoted.  Now, he spends as much time as possible with the Captain, learning how he plans and coordinated the company fight so that he can one day step into that role.  He also fights and acts as his bodyguard, and speaks with the Captain's authority on matters when the Captain is away on other business (so, basically, he's the company executive officer).  On the tabletop, if there were two demi-company formations, the Champion would stand in as the captain's role on the second list (if I didn't run a Chaplain).

 

The Champion is the only all-pewter infantry model remaining in the army (all others have been relegated to my second-tier army, the Redemptors)

 

Here is the size comparison between the up-sized and standard Marines/humans:

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3352_zpsf3scuvpc.jpg

 

I think it's a good balance between showing the massive size of the Marines without making them look overbearing on the table, and doesn't take much extra effort on my part (aside from buying and gluing on all the extra pouches to cover the torsos).

 

Finally, another little teaser on another vehicle I'm working on (Too much ADD, I think I'm never going to fully finish one vehicle):

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/outlawsixactual/bolterandchainsword/Tactical%20Squad%201/IMG_3353_zpsuedujce5.jpg

 

 

 

 

Comments and critiques are welcome!

[codyrstuart]

Making the static display vehicles is quite ambitious, but an awesome idea, as well as fully kitting out your tacticals. Seeing a mortar 113 in this thread makes me wish they would mount quad mortars in the back of Rhinos to make them more effective when moving.

 

Edit: that's a bunch of 1st Cav patches in that mortar picture. Did you have the misfortune of "living the legend"?

[OutlawSixActual]

Haha, no, the photo was from Google image search.  I was in a separate battalion in Germany, and then went to the Iron Horse division after that.