Apoc game vs Demons (need help!)

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Thanks Jolemai for all the info this is great!

 

For my new list idea, i'm thinking of throwing in the Archangels Sanguine Wing formation with the free power weapons and combi bolters, but would the power weapons be worth it against demons? I'm sure there will be something that has armor saves. Also maybe could give them all power axes and mauls. With the str 7 on the charge and ap2 from the axes i feel like they could threaten HQs and some vehicles pretty well... maybe? 

 

I think I'd be less concerned with AP and power weapons but instead try to make more wounds. You should have initiative on most units except daemonettes and few others (well simo on the charge). You'll probably kill most stuff with shooting though really.

 

And whatever bag of tricks you have through the Apoc rules or whatever, I'd use them as early as you can! -- wouldn't you agree Jolemai?

[Damon Nightman]

Well i'll probably have to run sternguard and VVs anyway do to my limited options, so i figured use the formation to get the free stuff. 

 

 

This is a really rough idea of what i'm thinking now. I also own all these units and not really too much more.

 

+++ Defenders 1 (2998pts) +++

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) (1865pts) ++

+ Formation (1865pts) +

Archangels Sanguine Wing (860pts)
-Sternguard Veteran Squad [9x Combi-Melta, 9x Sternguard Veteran, Veteran Sergeant]
-Stormraven Gunship [Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta]
-Vanguard Veteran Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, 9x Power Weapon, 9x Vanguard Veteran, Veteran Sergeant]
-Vanguard Veteran Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, 9x Power Weapon, 9x Vanguard Veteran, Veteran Sergeant]

The Defenders of the Cathedrum (1005pts)
-Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, 2x Meltagun]
-Assault Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]
-Drop Pod [storm Bolter]
-Death Company Squad [8x Bolt Pistol, 2x Bolter, 8x Chainsword, 10x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, 2x Power Fist]
-Furioso Dreadnought [Magna-grapple] Power Fists [Frag cannon, Heavy flamer]
-Tactical Squad [Heavy flamer, 4x Tactical Marine]
-Drop Pod [storm Bolter]
-Tactical Sergeant [2x Hand Flamer]
-Tactical Squad [Multi-melta, Rhino, 4x Tactical Marine]
-Tactical Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]
-Terminator Assault Squad [2x Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, 2x Twin Lightning Claws, Twin Lightning Claws]

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (BA Flesh Tearers Strike Force) (758pts) ++

+ HQ (60pts) +

Sanguinary Priest [bolt Pistol]

+ Troops (65pts) +

Scout Squad (65pts) [2x Combat Blade, 4x Scouts, 2x Shotgun]
Scout Sergeant [Chainsword, Teleport homer]

+ Fast Attack (138pts) +

Bike Squad (103pts) [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
Biker Sergeant [Combi-Grav]

Drop Pod (35pts) [storm Bolter]

+ Heavy Support (275pts) +

Baal Predator (135pts) [Heavy bolters, Twin-linked Assault Cannon]

Predator (140pts) [Lascannon, Twin-linked Lascannon]

+ Lords of War (220pts) +

Commander Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels (220pts)

++ Imperial Knights: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (375pts) ++

+ Lord of War (375pts) +

Knight Paladin (375pts) [Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword]

 

 

 

Would grav bikers be worth it or should i go with melta guns? Probably switch out the scout squad for another TAC squad or cassor and maybe the priest for a special character....

[Damon Nightman]

Update: 3k pts locked in. Was told "no super weird or silly things to plan around, but maybe some interesting bits..." Not sure what that means but I think that's all the info im gonna get before the game on July 2nd.

 

Have worked on my intended list, similar to the one above but will more set wargear for units. Will update later, but any feedback about the above list will most likely still apply to the revised one I'll post later.

 

Still not sure if I should go grav or melta on the bikers and haven't got the IK codex just yet, but I can run a single IK as an ally right?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Update: 3k pts locked in. Was told "no super weird or silly things to plan around, but maybe some interesting bits..." Not sure what that means but I think that's all the info im gonna get before the game on July 2nd.

 

Have worked on my intended list, similar to the one above but will more set wargear for units. Will update later, but any feedback about the above list will most likely still apply to the revised one I'll post later.

 

Still not sure if I should go grav or melta on the bikers and haven't got the IK codex just yet, but I can run a single IK as an ally right?

 

I'd say definitely melta against daemons. Do you have by any chance the Gatling Cannon option or any of the top-mounted gun options for your knight? The Battle Cannon is definitely the way to go on a big Apoc table but a second big gun would be nice.

 

I never use Sterngaurd or Vangaurd so I can't really comment on those but the rest looks cool to me. I usually bring 3 Vindicators upgraded to drive fast over/in terrain and maybe a couple Baal predators to hold that back line against sneaky outflankers/deep-strikers etc.

 

Who's riding in the Stormraven and what's your plan for the terminators (deepstrike?)?

 

You can run a single Knight as an Oathsworn Attachment "ally".

[Damon Nightman]

Thanks so much for all the help man.

 

I have the renegade box, so can kit the IK out as needed. I just wasn't sure if it was worth giving him all the guns since he would be targeted and die early I've been told...

 

Will do melta for the bikers

 

The stern guard have to ride in the Raven according to the formation, which is lame, but means I can drop them off easier I think since they don't want to charge ideally. Need to familiarize myself more with disembarking from a storm Raven honestly...

 

The termies will deep strike which I think is okay given the counter attack, if they get shot oh well.

 

Dante maybe start on board with DC or DS with one of the VV squads, probably add the priest in there too

 

When I get a chance after work ill provide my "tactics" and what not

 

I don't have much else beside what is in the above list. I was just already building these formations anyway. Pretty limited with shooting...

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I gotta say the lack of information they are giving is frustrating for me and I'm not even playing in the game!

Having played enough Apoc the seemingly 'small' differences from using the actual Book are really quite drastic in a good way and really help a lot, I'm sure Jolemai would agree.

[Damon Nightman]

List 1:

++ Apoc (2993pts) ++

++ Imperial Knights: Codex (2015) (375pts) ++
Knight Warden (375pts) [Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword]

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (BA Flesh Tearers Strike Force) (523pts) ++
+ HQ (75pts) +
Sanguinary Priest (75pts) [bolt Pistol, Jump pack]

 

+ Troops (135pts) +
Tactical Squad (135pts) [Meltagun, Rhino, 4x Tactical Marine]
Tactical Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]

+ Fast Attack (93pts) +
Bike Squad (93pts) [2x Meltagun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
Biker Sergeant [Combi-Melta]

+ Lords of War (220pts) +
Commander Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels (220pts)

+ Formation (2095pts) +
Archangels Sanguine Wing (960pts)
-Sternguard Veteran Squad [9x Combi-Melta, 9x Sternguard Veteran]
Veteran Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]

-Stormraven Gunship [Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta]
-Vanguard Veteran Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, 9x Power Weapon, 5x Storm Shield, 9x Vanguard Veteran]
Veteran Sergeant [1st Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol]

-Vanguard Veteran Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, 9x Power Weapon, 5x Storm Shield, 9x Vanguard Veteran]
Veteran Sergeant [1st Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol]

The Defenders of the Cathedrum (1135pts)
-Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, 2x Meltagun]
Assault Sergeant [Chainsword, Inferno Pistol]
Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

-Death Company Squad [8x Bolt Pistol, 2x Bolter, 8x Chainsword, 10x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, 2x Power Fist]

-Furioso Dreadnought [Magna-grapple]
Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]
Power Fists [Frag cannon, Meltagun]

-Tactical Squad [Meltagun, 4x Tactical Marine]
Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]
Tactical Sergeant [2x Inferno Pistol]

-Tactical Squad [Heavy flamer, Rhino, 4x Tactical Marine]
Tactical Sergeant [2x Hand Flamer]

-Terminator Assault Squad [2x Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, 3x Twin Lightning Claws, Twin Lightning Claws]

 

 

List 2:

++ Defenders 1 (2998pts) +++

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) (1905pts) ++
Archangels Sanguine Wing (860pts)
Sternguard Veteran Squad [9x Combi-Melta, 9x Sternguard Veteran]
Veteran Sergeant [Combi-Melta]
Stormraven Gunship [Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta]
Vanguard Veteran Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, 9x Power Weapon, 9x Vanguard Veteran, Veteran Sergeant]
Vanguard Veteran Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, 9x Power Weapon, 9x Vanguard Veteran, Veteran Sergeant]

The Defenders of the Cathedrum (1045pts)
Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, 2x Meltagun]
Assault Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Inferno Pistol]
Drop Pod [storm Bolter]
Death Company Squad [8x Bolt Pistol, 2x Bolter, 8x Chainsword, 10x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, 2x Power Fist]
Furioso Dreadnought [Magna-grapple]
Drop Pod [storm Bolter]
Power Fists [Frag cannon, Heavy flamer]
Tactical Squad [Heavy flamer, 4x Tactical Marine]
Drop Pod [storm Bolter]
Tactical Sergeant [2x Hand Flamer]
Tactical Squad [Meltagun, Rhino, 4x Tactical Marine]
Tactical Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]
Terminator Assault Squad [2x Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, 2x Twin Lightning Claws, Twin Lightning Claws]

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (BA Flesh Tearers Strike Force) (718pts) ++

+ HQ (75pts) +
Sanguinary Priest (75pts) [bolt Pistol, Jump pack]

+ Troops (55pts) +
Scout Squad (55pts) [2x Combat Blade, 4x Scouts, 2x Shotgun]
Scout Sergeant [Chainsword]

+ Fast Attack (83pts) +
Bike Squad (83pts) [2x Meltagun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
Biker Sergeant [boltgun]

+ Heavy Support (285pts) +
Baal Predator (135pts) [Heavy bolters, Twin-linked Assault Cannon]
Predator (150pts) [Lascannon, Overcharged engines, Twin-linked Lascannon]

+ Lords of War (220pts) +
Commander Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels (220pts)

++ Imperial Knights: Codex (2015)(375pts) ++
Knight Paladin (375pts) [Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword]

 

 

 

List 1 has more kitted out squads but no Baal or Pred. List 2 has the tanks, but less tooled up squads and a scout squad instead of a tac squad... I honestly intended to include both preds in list 1 but ran out of space so decided to make a separate list to try and include them, not sure which is better

 

Thoughts:

Stenguard in Raven, Vanguards (attached priest) in reserve with Termies, everthing else starts on board or pods in.

 

Main questions:

 

Who should i have as the warlord? Dante, IK, or priest? Concern with Dante is i'm not taking advantage of his warlord trait...

 

Should i find points to upgrade the IK to a Crusader? I figured it would die quick so keep it cheaper...

 

Should Dante start on board with DC or wait with Priest and vanguard in reserves?

 

If i start Dante on the board, should i switch the priest for a chaplain to go with DC too?

 

Should i just drop Dante all together and beef up some more squads and add another priest or chappy for DC?

 

Should i start my Baal Pred or Pred in reserves? 

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

That's why their lack of information is frustrating to me, because if you can bring in reserves on turn 1 (per the Apoc Book) it will entirely change the strategy. Each turn takes a very long time and lots of stuff dies every turn, imo it's better to use all your best tricks early before everyone dies and you lose the chance hah.

Seems like you better have 2 plans for deployment - one if they use "regular 40K" reserves and one if they use "Apoc reserves".

Another thing that occurs to me since you asked about being able to take a single IK -- in Apoc you can take ANYTHING you want. There are literally no restrictions. You can however still field formations and detachments to gain whatever bonus they might give but you don't have to at all. You could take a Warlord, 40 squads of Assault Terminators and an IK if you want. But again I don't know how these guys are playing it.

As for the Warlord... I dunno, it would be nice to use Veritas Vitae on a different model and hope to get the MtC-Ruins and Stealth-Ruins trait, but if Dante is on the table, it always seems like he should be in charge of the entire Imperial expedition since he is the oldest and baddest mofo around. Dante can also tank a lot of wounds.

I'd expect your enemies to be deep-striking a large part of their force right in your face - so again, depends of the reserves what you do with your tanks.

In true Apoc - you score objectives at the schedule breaks (not per turn) and it's the NEAREST model to the objective (not within 3"). Try to get as many as you can, or agree with your teammates who's doing what, likely your job will just be cracking skulls.

Sorry I'm not really the best one to talk about Lists... I just field what I like and what's painted and in Apoc I take - everything hah.

[Damon Nightman]

Haha thanks. I'm pretty sure they are using apoc reserve rules, like almost certain they are.

 

I am considering saying Dante is a lord from my chapter that counts as Dante so that way it makes sense that he isn't leading the battle. I also thought itd be weird to not have him lead, but completely wasting his trait though.

 

I'm trying to fit everything I own into the list, which I thought I could but it's hArd lol.

 

I really like list 1 better, just think the squads are kitted out better, but I really want to use the preds I just bought included in list 2. Will the predators 1 Baal and 1 reg be worth it? Do they actually provide enough firepower or am I better if sticking with list 1 even though I do t have much shooty there?

 

That's really my hardest decision right now I think

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I dunno ...everything dies fast in apoc so it's tough to have high expectations for any individual unit, but against daemons lots and lots of shooting is likely more effective. What are you teammates bringing?

[Damon Nightman]

Lol no idea, I just know it's mostly imperium vs demons. And now the stores FB page seperately posted an apoc event inviting everyone following them on FB to go. I assume it's the same event considering its on the same day, but no news in the private apoc group we already had going..,

 

This whole thing is incredibly unorganized and I'm not sure if it's normal for them. I was expecting to cooperate with teammates and talk before hand, but this seems like a cluster beep now...

 

I think I should just stop thinking about it and just show up with stuff. It also says "up to 3k pts per person" so i have no idea what pts number I'm expected to bring or if that's even decided ahead of time. It seems like it's just "hey apoc game Saturday, show up and we'll figure it out there" type of thing now which is not what I wanted/expected...

 

I appreciate all the help still guys, it just seems like I took this more seriously than anyone else...

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Haha well Apoc is a ton of fun. It's much better if it's well organized though - it's nice to be able to finish and have reasonable break/food times etc.

 

Hopefully you have fun at least!

[Damon Nightman]

Oh yeah, i'm sure it will be a good time still! 

[Damon Nightman]

Just found out it will be a big game of 40k and no apoc rules... I feel like this thread was a waste (becasue the game isn't apoc, not becasue of the thread itself) lol. Thanks for all the help again guys! Gunzhard and Jol specifically really helped out a lot for whenever I do get to play a real apoc game hahs

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Gah that sucks... they don't know what they're missing then. Well good luck dude!

[Damon Nightman]

Game on! 7 v 7. 1 board with 3 v3 and one with 4v4. I'm on a table with eldar and tau vs chaos marines, demons, and renegade guRd.

 

We went 1st and the tau and eldar players have done some work, expectedly. All my suicide melta guys missed though....Disorder side morale very low already after the tau and eldar bombardment. Will continue to update!

[Damon Nightman]

Update for the 2 people that have looked at this thread lol

 

Game called at the end of turn 3. The eldar and tau player basically tabled the enemy without my help. Victory for the Order side. Disorder didn't do well on the other table either.

 

I pretty much only took out a squad of berserkers with my DC, which was an awesome combat, killed a lone demon hq guy with Dante, and blew up a vendetta while wraith knights and tau stuff mopped up EVERYTHING else. I also took out some traitor guardsmen, but pretty uneventful battle for the Blood Revenants particularly. I was basically ignored due to the crazy stuff the tau and eldar had.

 

Fun game overall, though short and very one sided on my table at least...

 

A lot of people weren't happy with how unbalanced it ended up being. The guy who ran it was frustrated and says next time we will have to be more organized an go over lists before hand. I wanted to laugh because I've been posting crap like that on the FB group for the last month lol.

 

At least I was on the winning team, but it's hard to enjoy the victory too much when it's so one sided.

[Jolemai]

Cheers for the report. Getting the balance right on such a big game is always a tricky task but it can be rewarding when it's done well. Perhaps the organiser should get two more people to help run it and use the Apoc rules. Personally, I don't think that checking lists is a good idea seeing as most stuff doesn't matter, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea to put the heavy hitters on opposing sides.

 

For example, in our games the chap with Eldar Titans is always opposite the chap with Imperial Titans. Last game I was with the Imperial team, time before I was with the Eldar team (I tend to have the third largest army but only two Superheavies...)

[Damon Nightman]

We ended up using the apoc rules but didn't pick strategic assets or anything. We just used the apoc reserves system as far as I could tell, but maybe there was more as well.

 

The eldar guy had a Titan and all wraith knights, and the other side only had a baneblade, so not too sure if those are even...

 

Most people were not happy after the game so I'm sure it will be different next time. I'll bring up some of the stuff you mentioned and see if it helps.

 

Thanks again! Sounds like you guys have some pretty great apoc games and a nice formula to make it work!

[Jolemai]

Well, if you fancy some bedtime reading:

 

Chaplain Gunzhard wrote about at 24k per side game here.

 

I've written about a 21.5k per side game here and I've started writing about a 43k per side game here (but only got as far as Deployment. There's some more info further back in the blog).

 

There's also some stuff over in the Apocalypse forum. Not just battle reports but trying to make the current edition work for Apocalypse.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Cheers for the report. Getting the balance right on such a big game is always a tricky task but it can be rewarding when it's done well. Perhaps the organiser should get two more people to help run it and use the Apoc rules. Personally, I don't think that checking lists is a good idea seeing as most stuff doesn't matter, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea to put the heavy hitters on opposing sides.

For example, in our games the chap with Eldar Titans is always opposite the chap with Imperial Titans. Last game I was with the Imperial team, time before I was with the Eldar team (I tend to have the third largest army but only two Superheavies...)

We pretty much do the same thing Jolemai's group does. You can always find some narrative reason why Eldar might fight with/against any side, and the same goes for Tau to an extent.

I also agree that checking lists is a poor idea - part of the reason to play Apoc is being able to field ALL of the cool stuff you have in your collection, without limitations.

The book suggests using the Strategic Asset cards to 'balance' out the sides, if needed, which you can do - though unfortunately they don't really provide an accurate formula for how to exactly accomplish this -- it's mostly best-guessing and trial and error.

Perhaps for the next game you should volunteer to take the reigns Brother Lemartes. ...Apoc really is so much better when it's well organized, and as we've both repeated the actual Apoc rules are awesome haha.

Congrats on the win!

[ThatOneMarshal]

You were waaaay more successful than me man when I played apoc. It was my first real game with the new BA book. It was imperium vs everything else if I recall. I deep struck in my entire army the got destroyed by necrons and a daemon Prince. A damn shame yours was so one sided, was this the first time your group decided to do an apoc game?

[Damon Nightman]

Thanks guys! I'll check those out sometime jolemai.

 

I just got lucky with teammates. Most of my stuff deep struck in, but the tau and eldar did so much damage already, my guys just showed up to watch the remaining enemies get mopped up lol. Still fun of course!

 

It was my first time but they've done it at least 3 times before

[Servant of Dante]

Other things to watch out for:

 

• Unnatural Disasters - these can range from fun, to annoying, to broken. Just be aware that if they are in play, then your army might be decimated before the enemy has even shot you!
• When you have lost over 50% of your army, you can call a Divine Intervention. Basically what's left become Fearless (and any Imperial non-BAs you might have also gain FC)
• At the start of any turn your Warlord may call his Finest Hour. This has three effects:
  • He gets a 3++ and Eternal Warrior until the start of next turn
  • He gets to roll on one of the Exemplar tables (worth reading) or activate Son of the Angel (becomes a FMC for a turn)
  • He can call an All Out Attack on one unit - this unit triples its movement, can't shoot or run, but can charge*

• Note that if he dies during this he loses a Strategic Victory Point (SVP)
• SVPs are huge. You gain them for killing a SHV, GMC, stopping a Finest Hour or killing a Warmaster (basically the Warlord in charge of the team's Warlords). You also gain them from Objectives during a scheduled break so don't lose sight of this as this is how you win.

* Anecdote

Sigh. I dream of sending Dante flying across the board on burning wings of His vengeance.