Experience of a White Scar

[Ironwithout]

Good evening brothers.

Been receiving a few PM's recently around unit choices, tactics and general thoughts on playing pre heresy White Scars. For any one who doesn't know I have been a serious speed freak since I was a child and that has translated to the tabletop. I am now on game 32 with my White Scars since the Legion rules came out and my win ratio is 29 wins 3 losses. I wanted to do a bit of a write up as B+C has always been good to me especially now since becoming a full time commission painter after being made redundent. This will focus mainly around the Chogorion Brotherhood RoW and bike heavy lists.

This is the Scars collection as of right now.

I'm going to try and break this down in to sections to make it easy but the White Scars in my opinion are if played correctly are one of the most powerful Legions at the moment and this is for 4 reasons. The army has 3 big rules that make this army work wonders with no drawbacks. Chogorion Brotherhood, The Eye of the Storm and Born in the Saddle. I'm sorry but Forgeworld done a crap job with the limitations for this Legion. They may as well just not have any. The fourth thing that gives them an edge over other legions are jetbikes as troops. i know this seems obvious but seriously we can avoid the useless tactical marines troop tax which never do anything and relace them with fast heavy weapon platforms for naff all points extra.... I'll get to the Jetbikes. For me White Scars work best when you stay out of combat at all costs and out shoot you opponent.

Legion Rules

( I will not describe the exact wording of the rules as thats what the books are for and in my opinion people should buy them to support Forgeworld)

Swift Action

For all intents and purposes this gives you +1 to your cover save to a maximum of 3+and allows you to re roll to wound rolls of a if you move your maxumum distance. This rule has had a fair bit of debate about how the benefits work and how it is gained so I thought I woud clear that up. If a unit moves every model its maximum distance in the movement phase it gains the above benefits only in the Movement/assault ohase. That means no re rolls of 1 to wound when you are shooting. In truth this Never has a huge impact on my games as I rarely see combat. See the Forgworld email confirmation below.

The Eye of the Storm

This is 1 of the big 3.+1 to the first reserve roll of every turn is amazingly handy. choose to add +1 to your sieze roll or to the role for who gets the first turn. so you can now sieze on a 5+ and your first reserve roll is a 2+... yes pleaase. Oh wait now when you roll your Warlord trait if you roll on the Stratgic table and manage to get Strategic genius you then sieze on a 4+ and re roll reserve rolls. epic!

Born in the Saddle

Number 2 of the big 3. Skilled rider. +1 to jink saves means anything with Legions astartes White Scars is jinking on a 3+. just remeber this does not confer to vehicles as they don't come with the Legions Astartes rule so your flyers and land speeders jink as normal on a 4+ unless they have a rule stating otherwise. You also auto pass dangerous terrain tests. The big point here is auto pass not ignore! That means in Zone Mortalis you can run bikes without fear as it states that bikes and jetbikes must take dangerous terrain tests regardless of any rules to the contrary. You are taking the test but you automatically pass it. This rule is a huge deal for this army.

Laugh in Deaths Face

Seriously not even going to mention this. Was ment to be a drawback and honestly its really not.

Row

Chogorion Brotherhood

This is the Number 3 of the big 3. Going to break this down a bit and try and explain why this RoW is what tips this Legion in to the top 3 in my opinion.

Ride Like the Wind - We all knew this was coming but I was expecting to have some kind of restriction..... but nope! Jetbikes and Outriders as troops. This is massive and a huge advantage over other Legions and let me try and explain why I think this. A normal Legion list will pay 195 points for a cheap 10 man tactical squad with a rhino and artificer armour. They need 2 of these and honestly they won't do much but die. I hate this fact but it's true. Even if you up that to a 20 man squad they are still not going to do a huge amount especially with the speed of the Scars you should not really ever take a real hit from them. now your troop choice of jetbikes. Take a 6 man unit and thats 6 Heavy Bolters with no upgrades which is 240 points. Already from a points perspective your troops are more points efficient and will be incredibly usefull in a game as opposed to what a tactical squad will generally do. Will go over Jetbikes more in detail later in the unit review.

Lightning Strike - 2 big points here to mention. First one is Hit + Run... seriously catch us now. if you don't die in the first round of combat ( which is entirely possible ) your probably going to be gone in the next one. and the second one is anything with more then 3 HP's must be held in reserve and gains Outflank. this is both a good and a bad thing. Land Raiders having to be held in reserve means Deathstars aren't charging till turn 3 if your are lucky from a transport which can limit certain bulds. Having said that just linger on the thought of an Outflanking Warhound Titan, Falchion or even a Glaive. i won't go over the limitaions as they aren't really a big deal.

Unit Review

I'm not going to go over every unit in the bok merely all the units I have experience with and also what feels relevent to a Chogorion Brotherhood way of war.

Troops

Skyhunter Jetbike Squad - These are the best troop options in the game in my opinion. For 275 points you can have a 6 man unit with a Sargent and 2 Volkite Culverns. Thats a unit with T5, 2+ save, 3+ Jink, can move up to 36" a turn, shells out 12 S5 shots and 8 S6 shots with Deflagerate a turn.

Lets look at options

The best unit size for this squad as a all round troop choice is 6 and the reason why I say that is its has enough firepower to cause some serious hurt, has enough resiliance to be a pain to get rid of, generally is a small enough unit to still hide and is faster then any other unit in the game with the exception of flyers. I know of players running large units of 9 or smaller units of 3 but you dont want to invest too many points and hamstring yourself in other areas and 3 will die to easily especially when these are your scoring units.

Sargent. Always take this guy in the unit unless you have a character in the squad. I know that sounds strange but as a troops choice you need the extra Leadership and as for the character you really don't want this unit in combat as they will fold easily enough so no need to worry about challenges.

Power Glaive. Truthfully in this squad leave it at home. The unit is really dissapointing in combat and if it is in combat you're either sacrificing it or something has gone really wrong and that Glaive isn't going to help you. Saying that I always take them as they look cool.

Melta, Plasma or Volkite is a question that comes up a lot. Plasma...... crap leaave it at home. As soon as you jink its not shooting and thats a big downside. Melta honestly isn't the best choice due to the prevailance of armoured ceramite but it's still worth looking at. You can use it to pop 2+ save Sargents and it's still useful against Knights which you will face at some point. Volkite is the go to choice as it fits well with the Heavy bolters and adds to the anti infantry abilities of the unit.

Melta Bombs. I'm torn on this one honestly and I think it comes down to preference. I take a melta bomb on a sargent just in case I need it but I feel taking it on the whole unit is wasted. anti tank should really be covered well in the rest of your list enough that you shouldn't really need them on the jetbikes. This comes down to preference but I have never taken them squad wide and have never missed them. I have only used the Sargents melta bomb once.... and then the exploding tank blew him up and lost me the game.

Jetbikes are the best unit to have as your go to troops choice in a Chogorion Brotherhood List. They are versatile, incredibly fast, incredibly resilient and have a suprising amount of firepower. They are a mobile gun platform and should be used as such, if they are put in combat then they will die to most enemies even with T5 and a 2+. I run 3 units of 6 in every game 2 armed with 2 Volkite and 1 armed with 2 Multi Meltas to take on targets with no armoured ceramite and Knights. I try and keep them at maximum range at all times and focus fire all 3 units on 1 target which will generally knock out a 10man marine unit every turn.

In regards to Zone Mortalis the base size on these guys make them too unwieldy to use effectively.

Legion Outrider Unit

These guys are a real specialist unit which you can optimise for the role you need them to be used in. I will say now I think they are way too expensive for what they do and only ever run them in Zone Mortalis as my go to troops choice as they are easier to keep alive in the confined corridors. Big benefits of these guys are scout and outflank.

I have success with 2 unit sizes for these guys. First one being a 3 man unit armed with plasma guns, Sargent with a power weapon and a second power weapon in the squad. The unit generally is small enough to be ignored by your opponent and has enough punch to hunt nearly any infantry and also light tanks. This unit comes in at 200 points which is pricy but Outriders always are. The second way I use them is in Zone Mortalis. I run a unit of 5, 1 with melta guns and 1 with plasma guns as no armoured ceramite in Zone Mortalis and the corridors can help with survivability.

In regards to weapons all the options are viable. Flamers are always a safe cheap choice although I get frustrated with the lack of damage I get out of them but they are a fairly cheap option. Melta guns are not a bad choice as they can hunt knights and titans well although but may lack targets with so much armoured ceramite. Plasma guns are the better choice for all round flexibility but will get expensive fast, Boltguns are a but meh so why bother? The unit can also take 1 in 3 power weapons which means you can have 3 power weapons in a squad of 6 including the sargent. It gives you a farly fast/cheap combat unit but honestly just doesnt really cut it for the points cost

If Jetbikes are your swiss army knife Outriders are your Scalpel. You pick a role for them and be ready to pay the points for it but to be fair they will do it well. In my opinion the Outriders need to be used in addition to Jetbikes to fill in gaps and weaknesses in your list. I think at the moment they are too many points to be an efficient choice when you can find cheaper or stronger options in other unit choices.

Tactical Support Squad

This is a unit that works well for White Scars for 1 reason! Cyber Hawk! This is a high risk/high damage output unit which your opponent will fear and if they don't they will by the end of the game.

Unit Size I usually run wither 8 or 10 for maximum damage output from the unit as this unit really needs to do as much damage as possible before it dies a horrible death.

For me the only way you run these guys is with plasma guns. 10 plama guns 20 shots re rolling 1's to hit is brutal! my Plasma squad has killed in the last 5 games: 6 Knights, Perturabo, 10 Tyrant Siege Terminators, 4 Rhinos, 16 Terminators, 8 Jetbikes, Night Haunter, Corax and 3 Thanatars!

You can put them in a Rhino or a Dreadclaw drop pod. Both are valid options but I think the Dreadclaw wins it hands down. The rhino can be popped easily and and people will target this unit. If you put them in a Dreadclaw its comng down turn 1 and its going to be in their face and harder to deal with before they kill something.

I nearly always run a unit of 8 or 10 in a Dreadclaw combined with the Cyber Hawk to drop down and hopefully take a chunk out of the opponents list. its a gamble due to the Dreadclaw but it's one that can pay off in a big way

HQ

Praetor - In a army that doesn't want to be in combat the only reason to take this guy over the Delegatus is the Cyber Hawk. This piece of Wargear for 10 points is insanely good and is a must if you are using a plasma support squad or a terminator squad with combi plasmas. I normally run mine with a Jetbike, iron Halo, Cyber Hawk and a power Glaive. Yes the Paragon blade is better but as I said above he never really sees combat so I would rather save the 10 points.

Delegatus - So this guy is cheaper and worse then a Praetor but unlocks the Chogorion brotherhood RoW. Thats all you need from a HQ in this army as you dont want to be in combat. Give him a Power Glaive which is automatically mastercrafted and he can finish off the odd unit in combat if needed. If you don't need the Cyber Hawk I would run this guy to save you points on other things.

Centurions - I'm going to be a bit brief with these guys. The only 3 that I ever really look at is the Forgelord, Librarian and the Primus Medicae so I'll go over my thoughts on these.

Forgelord - This guy is great at complementing the combat capabilities of a unit through Rad grenades but we don't really have any decent combat units. any other use? Fixing vehicles or maybe a big conversion beamer but then thats a lot of points for a ineffective role.

Librarian - This guy fits well in a Scars list and can make a jetbike unit even more potent but the issue is I can never find the points to put him in. Seriously this guy adds up! As much as I hate to say it the reality is everytime you look at him in a list you will look at that points cost and find something better and more reliable.

Primus Medicae - i LOVE THIS GUY! seriously I do I think they are a great unit. Just not in this army. When you only have 6 models that 5+ FNP doesn't make a huge difference. Points could be spent elsewhere

Command Squad - Ok I really really wanted these guys to be great! But they aren't efficient for the points cost. i ran them for just over 25 games before I ditched them for a normal jetbike squad. Combat shields just dont cut it. You obviously put them on Jetbikes as we are talking about a Chogorian Brotherhood list here then arm them with power weapos/fists and give them combat shields. These guys will still get stomped by most decent combat units so you either end up not putting them in combat or killing tactical marines. I would leve these guys at home.

Elites

Terminator Squad - In my opinion the only unit worth talking about in the elites section. Unfortunatly they need a Land Raider so you are taking a risk with them but armed with combi plasma and power fists they can be a great distraction coming on from outflank mid game. I normally run a unit of 5 in Phobos pattern Land Raider in games of 3000 points and above. They can threaten tanks and heavy infantry alike.Combiine them with the Cyber Hawk for more potency. Think about how you are manipulating your reserves though as they are a lot of points you are gambling with on the roll of a reserve dice.

Fast Attack

Land Speeders - I can only find 1 set up for these that seem to do well which is Grav. 5 Land speeders with grav guns will slow your opponent and can also pop a Spartan a turn. The issue is its well over 200 points for a unit which will die to bolter fire and you don't really want to give your opponents useless tactical squads a decent target. Eveything else they can take can be done better by Jetbikes

Javelin Land Speeders - On paper these guys have a lot of potential. Take a unit of 3 with twin linked lascannons and thats 3 lascannon shots a turn for 255 points... really? But for 255 points you can take 3 with Cyclone Missile Launchers and 2 hunter killers each which can Outflank. This sounds great on paper but in all honesty it never seems to be enough. no AP 1 or even 2 in this set up really diminishes the potential for this unit. Again the role of this unit can be done for cheaper and better by other units.

Dreadclaw - If you fancy a risk this is the toy for you. No inertial guidance system on a drop pod means this can misshap. your either going to load it with a support squad or terminators so either way thats a lot of points to lose to a dodgy dice role. some people get round this by dropping it down in a safe zone and then flying it 36" across the board and then the following turn unloading but the problem with this is you are going to get shot to bits and that dreadclaw is not that tough and if your loading it with a shooty unit and it jinks then they are snap shooting the following turn. Personally I load this up with a 10 man Plasma squad, take a gamble and drop it next to a target and let loose. It may not pay off but if it does it could tip the game permenantly in your favor.

Lightning Strike Fighter - This thing fills a massive hole in a list when Rapier weapons batteries aren't really a viable option due to them not fitting the theme. Popping Spartans and Superheavies. You load these up with 4 Krakens, Ground Tracking Augaries and Battle Servitor control which means you get 4 missiles hitting on 2's s8 2 d6 to pen with a re roll. They are seriously difficult to intercept and WILL change games when they come on. They do have a few donsides though.

1. You need to take 2. Seriously 1 is never enough as mad as that sounds strange but considering you need to fill you fast attach slots to fill your heavy support squads its not a big deal

2. Once they have unloaded they have a single twin linked lascannon so will probably do naff all

3. These things may as well be paper aeroplanes and will give up easy kill points.

I run 2 in every game and they rarely dissapoint me. They don't always get their points back but they do always make a difference. They do have other weapon options but in all honesty dont pack the punch that this load out can and with the amount of Superheavy and Primarch loaded Spartans around I personally think these things should be a staple in White Scras lists.

Heavy Suport

Sicaran Battle Tank - These things are made for the White Scars. Fast, durable and a well rounded flexible tank. I love these things but I think you need to run them in pairs to really see them make a difference to your game. Lacannon sponsons are the better option in my opinion as it lets them double as light ant tank and a last resort fo flyers

Sicaran Venator - A 1 trick pony in a big way that you buy for stopping superheavies and in particular Typhons. In truth I don't think its worth the points as it's too situational. If your going to use it don't bother with the sponsons as they are going to be snap firing as the main gun is ordinance

Vindicator - These things are amazing for the points. You should'nt need the rapier laser destroyers as the lightnings fill this role but the demolisher cannons are a great addition to any list and can take a huge amount of heat away from the rest of your army. I usually run 2 of these with Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade which lets them move 12" and fire.

Predator - This unit is your filler. You use these to fill gaps in your list as they have so many options. My personal favorite is the plasma top turrets as they really can pack some serious firepower. Again much like the Vindicators these will attract a lot of attention letting the rest of your army do the work.

Fire Raptor Gunship - So this unit is a staple of so many lists because it is just that good. Arm it with Autocannon turrets and let it do its things. I'm not sure its really needed though with the amount of firepower jetbikes can put out though. Thats a heavy slot that could be used to try and fill a niche in your list.

Below is my normal 2500 points which I'll give a bit of an overview on and the tactics I use for it.

HQ

Praetor

Iron Halo

Power Glaive

Cyber Hawk

Melta Bomb

Jetbike

Troops

Jetbike Squad x6

Sargent

Power Glaive

melta bomb

x2 Volkite Culvern

Jetbike Squad x6

Sargent

Power Glaive

melta bomb

x2 Volkite Culvern

Jetbike Squad x 6

x2 Multi Meltas

Plasma support squad x8

Sargent

Artificer Armour

Fast Attack

Dreadclaw

Lightning Strike Fighter

x4 Kraken Missiles

Battle Servitor Control

Ground Tracking Augaries

Lightning Strike Fighter

x4 Kraken Missiles

Battle Servitor Control

Ground Tracking Augaries

Heavy Support

Sicaran Battle Tank

Lascannon Sponsons

Sicaran Battle Tank

Lascannon Sponsons

Vindicator Squadron x2

Both have Power of the Machine Spirit

The idea of the list is built around the mongolion horse archers way of war. Constantly on the move, backing away and staying out of combat while all the time bringing as much firepower to bear as possible.

The Praetor goes with the melta jetbike unit with no sargent to buff their leadership. All 3 jetbike units will focus fire on a single unite either destroying it or reducing its firepower to the point its no longer a threat. General targets are power armour marines but also anything with a 2+ save if needed.

Plasma support squad can be used for multiple roles such as hunting tanks and monstrous creatures but the main target for these guys is primarchs. 16 plasma shoys re rolling 1's should generally either kill a primarch or do enough wounds for the rest of the army to finsh it off. So far they have killed Perturabo, Konrad and Corax.

Dreadclaw. I play all in with this generally and load it with the plasma squad, drop it on a target and let loose.

Lightnings go for the biggest targets such as Spartans, Superheavies, Knights if needs be and can also double at taking shots at Primarchs and Mechanicum monstrous keepers

Sicarans are generally aiming for light vehicles and finishing off the work the other units failed to finish. They can also double as AA if needed although not a great option.

Vindicators are in to create a real threat and cause chaos. No target is safe from them and generally they draw fire off everything else.

Thanks for looking and feel free to tell me what you think. If you have anything you want added let me know and I can add your thoughs to the above. Cheers all

Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything and apologies if anything doesn't make sense or any dodgy spellings as it's now 1 am. Feel free to check out my Facebook page in the link below for more Scars and Heresy related goodness as well as painting and modeling tutorials.

[b1soul]

Nice breakdown

 

...just one request

 

Mind posting an HD pic of ur WS collection? It looks incredible

[Ironwithout]

Cheers b1soul.

 

A few more pics in the Hall of Honour

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323382-white-scars-phoenix-commissions/

 

Failing that we have even more on the Facebook page. I didn't want to overload the post over in the Hall of Honour so kept it a bit limited to the amount of pictures

[noigrim]

thinking about this for 1500

 

delegatus, jetbike, glaive shield, parthinian serpent (swappable for an attack bike if opponent gets picky) 175

Jetbikes, glaive, volkite,1 melta 150

idem 150

17+tactical 220

Lightning, ground tracking, servitor, 2x kraken, 1x auto 230 Note: vs eldars/tyranids multilasers instead

Termis, 5 fists/claws, 200

 

allies (militia)

comm sect 30

las infantry 60

Leman russ 140

idem 140

 

Not sure about the allies, but that's what I got to bring at GW excepting more marines, but as you said the tactical tax is too high

 

What new units would you put, more bikes? more lightnings?

[Ironwithout]

I would up the lightning to 4 krakens instead of the 2. If your playing heresy games I would add a second if your playing against 40k armies I'm not sure if the second is worth it but 40k isn't my speciality.

 

So those jetbikes are 2 3 man units is that correct? Also I'm not sure those points add upeople. 3 man Jetbike unit, sargent, glaive, Volkite and a melta bomb is 180 points not 150.

 

If I may ask why the tactical marines? With those points you could spend on more potent units.

 

Are you footslogging the terminators? I would worry about them getting shot to shredsee on the way. Land Raider or in my opinion a Dreadclaw would be good for them to add some speed.

 

A Sicaran battle tank would work well in this list aswell to add some firepower.

 

So trying to keep in mind the list and models you have mentioned. I would maybe try something like this

 

delegatus, jetbike, glaive, refractor field 135

 

Jetbike x3, sargent, melta bomb ,Volkite culvern 180

 

Jetbike x3, sargent, melta bomb, Volkite culvern 180

 

Terminators x4 power fists and 1 chain fist 205

 

Dreadclaw 100

 

Lightning Strike Fighter

Ground tracking augaries

Battle servitor control

4 kraken missiles and auto cannons as you said. 230.

 

Sicaran battle tank

Lascannons sponsons 175

 

This puts you at 1160 so so 35 points over what you spent on your scars so you could tweak it a bit to save points if you want to squeeze your allies in.

 

That's my thoughts anyway and if I'm honest you should really try and proxy before buying a lot of stuff. This stuff is pricy for models you may end up not using

[noigrim]

Right now I don't want to buy more models, I could get a 40k pod and turn it into a dreadclaw like this http://greenstuffindustries.blogspot.com.es/2015/04/dreadclaw-from-drop-pod-conversion.html being uber chep i can paint it in bare metal and use it with any legion

 

shiled better than refractor since you jink at 3++

 

that would leave 180 without the sicaran

 

GW won't let em take any photocopied auxilia codex there so it would be another allied legion worth 545pts, sons of horus with some fortification (40k detachements allow it). Footsloggers to maintaing ground, and perhaps a second dreadclaw with justaerin

 

next year I'll get another lightning since painted as "imperial fleet livery" it can play with any legion

[heron]

great work on the painting and tactics- really like your list as well. I have been working up a scars army for the past six months, and like you, really love the way they play in a 30K crusade environment. I play a more outrider oriented list, with anvillus mounted terminators acting as my 2+ hammer unit rather than jetbikes. Like you, I also like grav-gun speeders and twin lightnings as well. I really like the double vindicator idea that you have- might have to invest in some! 

 

FYI- here is a link to my army painting log on my blog- hopefully we meet in person at an event!

[Ironwithout]

Heron that's sounds great. If you want to add anything to this just let me know. Would be great to add other players thoughts. I can find so little when it comes to pre heresy Scars on the Internet would be good to get this as loaded as possible for new Scars players.

 

Would also be great to meet another Scars players.

 

I'm off to the Forgeworld open day and the imperial truth podcasts campaign weekend in August if you're off to any of them it would be good to meet up

[Caillum]

Linked this in the White Scars Tactica. Cannot "like" this enough - really great stuff mate! :)

[DietOfLiquor]

Honestly. Great frickin job! Question for you though. What do you think about laser destroyer vindi's?

[Ironwithout]

Cheers Caillum. I didn't even think about doing that which is daft considering I started the tactical thread haha!

 

Dietofliquor honestly I love them! Seriously I think they are amazing. They never failed to disappoint when I played them with my Fists and they are a pain when my opponent uses them. My issue with them is in a Chogorian Brotherhood list is I end up abandoning them. To get the most out of them they have to stay still and frankly as my army is always on the move they get left behind and become easy targets. I think that's more the way I play though as opposed to a flaw with them. Hope that helps buddy

[heron]

We have a pretty good White Scars tactics thread going over on the  Heresy 30K forums- I know many of you are members already. I thought I would repost this great jetbike/outrider tactics write-up by the amazing Ryan Kimmel. This originally was aired on the Eye of Horus Podcast, and the shows producers were kind enough to give us the text to post up.

 

Hey guys whats up. I figured since you asked I would go over how I like to use Outrider Bikes in detail and also try to sell Michael on them. I will also go over Jetbikes and compare and contrast Jetbikes and Outrides plus give my thoughts on Command Squads and characters mounted on them.

Also keep in mind that this is just my opinion on
stuff and with all the play style, local meta and skill level
disparity that is in 40k and 30k there really isnt ever a 100% right way to do anything. That being said I own and play with on a regular basis over 100 bikes of different races and types in 40k and 30k on the regular. I have Chaos Marine bikes, Ork bikes, Eldar Jetbikes, Marine bikes and Attack Bikes so I consider myself a bike expert.

First off I think I can present very compelling evidence as to why Michael is underestimating Outriders. Now I want to start off by saying up front that I agree with Michael that they are slightly points heavy (maybe 3 to 5 points a guy) and that in my opinion Michael is right in that Jetbikes are better on paper. That being said they are far from useless and can actually be devastating in the right list or if being used by a good player. Also while I do think Jetbikes
are better most of the time they have a totally different role to Outriders so Outriders could be a better fit in some lists or fill certain roles better. Now that all thats said lets look at the fact that Michael likes Stone Guantlet so much and begin the actual discussion there......

So 10 Breachers in a Stone Gauntlet with everyone armed with melta-Bombs and the Sergeant armed with a Power Weapon is 285. Michael should be familiar with how these guys play. Now lets look at Outriders armed the exact same way. For 10 Outriders all armed with Melta-Bombs and the Sergeant having a Power Weapon its 375 so they are 90 more points. Now that seems like a lot but lets look at how they stack up.....

The Stone Gauntlet Breachers get 4 things the bikes dont.
1. Defensive Grenades
2. a 6+ Invul to shooting that becomes a 5+ Invul in close combat
3. Hardend Armor
4. Scoring Unit (without having to take a right of war)

The Bikes get several things the Breachers dont have.
1. Twin-Linked Shooting
2. Scout or Outflank
3. 12 inch movement (no need for an expensive transport plus they will be faster than any unit with a transport anyway. This is big because this shrinks or erases the 90 point price gap all on its own if you really think about it)
4. 2x Close Combat weapons all the while keeping their twin-linked bolter
5. Relentless
6. Hammer of Wrath (without giving up T5)
7. Aren't slowed by terrain and/ or Hardended armor when moving or charging. (dangerous terrain test instead)
8. Turbo Boost instead of running. (straight 12 inch move instead of random D6)
9. Jink Save (3x better than a 6+ invul to shooting as there is little to no ignores cover in 30k)
10. Giant long bases that when spread out properly make it impossible for a large blast to get more than 2 models. Plus they are super good for blocking off huge areas of the board and area denial in objective missions.
11. Dont eat up your Rite of War slot to get T5.
12. Are classed as "bikes" not "infantry" so all the units that have preferred enemy infantry dont work on them.
13. They can move/turboboost 24 inches on the last turn of the game to contest objectives.

If you look at the lists the bikes have roughly 3x the offensive output of the Breachers (Double tap with Twin-Linked Bolters, then assault because of relentless, do a Hammer of Wrath hit and then follow it up with 3 close combat attacks) The Breachers can either just rapid fire with no rerolls or shoot one bolt pistol shot and assault doing 2 attacks in close combat.

The bikes are WAAAAAAYYYY! more mobile. They scout, move 12 inches can turbo boost and arent slowed by terrain or hardened armor. They also don't have to hug terrain or stick close to it as they carry a 4+ jink save with them wherever they go if they need it. This makes them way easier to use and you don't have to worry about showing up to an event and finding out all the tables have little to no terrain on them. Also like I said they don't have to buy a transport to gain their mobility making the 90 point price gap closer than you would think.

I would also say that they are more durable as well because I personally feel a 4+ jink save to be better than a 6+ invul save. I don't mind snap firing as the guns are twin-linked plus they do most of their damage in assault anyway. Also if he thinks Stone Gauntlet is tough have him try shooting at an Iron Hands Outrider squad with a Primus Medicae in it or Chymerie "Option 1".

Now that I hopefully have Michael's attention I will go into how I run my squads. I like to run squads of 9 guys with the Sergeant upgrade on one of the 9. I then buy 3 power axes for the squad and then buy a 4th power axe for the Sergeant. I then give the entire unit melta-Bombs.This makes the unit 370 points. I also play Blood Angels so my Legion Tactics really buff this unit well. These guys tool most other infantry in the game and are a huge threat to any non-flying vehicle. They are fast enough to avoid any unit they want to avoid being in assault with most of the
time. They are also super fast and pretty hard to kill if deployed and moved properly while being supported. I like to run 2 or 3 units loaded out just like this plus a command squad on bikes all at once. Speaking of the command squad I arm mine with normal bikes. I give 2 guys axes, 2 guys swords and the banner guy a powerfist. I also give
everyone Melta Bombs. I then deck out a Praetor with the Blood Angels Blade of Perdition, (if no relics are allowed) Iron Halo, Digital Lasers and Melta-bombs to go with them. This is major threat overload for your opponent most of the time. Most players aren't used to dealing with this many super fast units with this much offensive diversity in 30k. The panic on your opponents face when you get the first turn and you are in the middle of his deployment zone with 30+ dudes with Melta-Bombs, Twin-Linked Bolters and a ton of Power Weapons before he even fires a single shot is pure gold. I like to back this up with Tactical Squads with additional close combat weapons in Rhinos and cheap hard hitting tanks like Scorpius Whirlwinds, Sicarans and Plasma Predators. I now run my list as a Armored Breakthrough list and make all the tanks fast and really allows me to put tons of first turn pressure on my opponents.

Here is a quick list of potentially evil things you can do with Outriders.
1. Give them Furious Charge with Raven Guard or Generic Legion Tactics.
2. Make them crazy hard to kill with shooting with Iron Hands Legion Tactics. You can also make an entire unit of relentless Twin-Linked Graviton Guns but its super expensive. Still funny and unique though.
3. Give the unit twin-linked flamers in a Salamander army. The Legion tactics give them Str 5 and they gain Shred from being twin-linked. Add this to scout or outflank with a 12 inch move and look out!
4. Good with Night Lords Legion Tactics as they count as 3 models. Also you can attach Night Haunter to give them Stealth and Shrouded for a 2+ Jink and he keeps up with their movement pretty well as he is Jump Infantry. They also confer Scout to him.
5. Good with Sons of Horus because of their extra hits at Int 1.
6. Make them scoring with Rowboat Girlyman in an Ultramarines army by him giving them Implacable Advance.
7. Blood Angels legion tactics grant them plus 1 on to wound rolls in close combat in every round so its actually better than Furious Charge. Plus the Blade of Perdition is arguably the best non-unique close combat weapon in the game so putting characters on bikes and attaching them to a large squad of outriders that then give them scout
is really good. Also small units of bikes, jetbikes and attack bikes are one of the better ways to work around the Hosts of Angels rule if you want lots of vehicles.
8.The Dark Angels Ravenwing Detachment allows rad grenades on every sergeant plus you get to reroll sweeping advance rolls and any bike independent characters you have gain Knight Commander which gives them re-rolls against high tough models on the to wound roll and they make any squad they join ignore all leadership penalties i the assault phase. You also get hese guys as troops which is huge.
9. Put Librarians with them with Divination or Biomancy and go for a 4+ invul save and rending in Divination or a 4+ Feel no Pain save and Enfeeble in Biomancy. (I like the later better as the other Biomancy powers also help the unit more in my opinion)
10. Put Chaplins and / or Forge Lords with Rad Grenades on bikes with them. This really buffs their already decent close combat. With rad grenades, furious charge and power axes you can also inflict instant death on all T4 or lower units
11. Blackshield Chymerie "option 1" gives all units it your army +1 strength and toughness (super :cussing brutal) and -1 Initiative and -1 inch on charging and sweeping advance rolls. The bonuses on this far outweigh the negatives considering you only go to Int 3 and your fast movement and the ability to ignore the -2 inch difficult terrain penalty when charging pretty much negates the -1 charge penalty.
"Option 3 is good as BS 3 doesn't hurt these dudes to much as you will be jinking a lot anyway and your guns are all twin-linked. It gives you fear, fleet and rage which are all obviously good on an Assault Unit.
12. White Scars tactics and Chogorian Brotherhood makes these dudes troops, super tough, gives them the ability to drive over haystacks and not give a :cuss along with hit and run and the Swift Action rule which helps in assaults. Whats not to love.
13. Alpha Legion mutable tactics plus Alpharius giving them preferred enemy plus adding in some of the above tricks make make for a nasty surprise.

Ok now that I have beat Outriders to death lets talk Jetbikes.....
First off these guys play totally different. Outriders do all their work at a range of 12 inches or less.On the other hand its my opinion that if you are closer than 18 inches of any enemy models with Skyhunters after your shooting phase ends then you are doing it wrong. These guys work best as a pure shooting unit. They have the extra close combat weapon but DO NOT get the power weapon upgrades that Outriders get. In close combat they have the offensive output of despoiler marines.

They instead get a massive amount of ranged firepower. The 2+ armor save is also nice on these guys as you don't want to jink with them and lessen their shooting. I feel like this is the one unit in the game that screams for a Librarian the most. This unit with Divination is evil. You will automatically get Prescience which grants re-rolls to hit with your crazy shooting and you can end up with ignores cover, rending with all that crazy shooting, Overwatching at full BS and / or a 4+ invul save. I like putting Volkite Culverians on them over the other options as they can still snap fire if you jink and are more versatile than the other options. I personally feel putting Melta-Bombs on these guys is a trap.

As I have stated they are most effective at staying really far from the enemy and just shooting the crap out of them. If you spend points on Melta-Bombs you will be tempted to use them and in order to do so you have to get super close to the enemy with dudes that are super expensive, shoot 36 inches and fight like tac marines in assault......why?

Take other stuff in your army to do that dirty work
and just sit back and shoot with these guys. Now the exception to this is if you spam the crap out of these guys in a list and you spent so many points on them you have very little anti-tank. In this case you may have to put Melta-Bombs on them to make up for the short fall in the rest of your army. Also I would never Deep Strike these guys. They move and shoot so far that there isn't really a need unless a crazy situation presents itself. Also you will be putting one of the best shooting units in the game in reserve and losing a minimum of one round of shooting with them. The only benefit of them having Deep Strike is that they are available to the Orbital Assault rite of war. They also now have a Generic Rite of War available to any Legion that can make them troops. (outriders do not)

I personally think the best way to run them in a standard army is a full 10 man unit with an attached Lvl 2 Librarian with Divination. Give only the Jetbike Sergeant and the Librarian Melta-Bombs so they remain flexible in a pinch but you aren't blowing tons of points for the entire squad to
have them. Then give 3 Bikes Volkite Culverians. This unit is crazy good. It murders everything except heavy vehicles and is really hard to kill in return if used right. Also if you are lucky enough to roll up Misfortune they can even glance down heavier vehicles. These guys like, the Outriders, are also crazy with Guilliman as he can make them scoring and they might the hardest single wound models in the game to kill if they are, White Scars, Iron Hands or Chymerie "Option 1".

One of the last things to say about all of this is that I think normal bikes are better for command squads as an upgrade then Jetbikes in my mind. Bikes are 20 point upgrades and Jetbikes are 35 point upgrades. Firstly command squads already have a 2+ armor so the jetbike doesn't help with durability any more than a normal bike so you are wasting points there. Then you are once again mounting a super long range gun on a unit that wants to be really close to the enemy to use all their power weapons and close combat attacks while supporting other units
with the fearless banner. Because you are going to be close you will be taking tons of fire and will want to jink a lot so all that fancy shooting you paid points for is wasted. All you really get out of the deal is Deep Strike and a slightly farther Turboboost for an extra 15 points per model. All of this holds true for Character mounts as well except the Librarian which work well on both types of mount.

Jetbikes are good units in just about any legion army. Though the ones that stand out are the 3 I mentioned above, along with Dark Angels which gives them a super powerful ability in Search and Destroy as well as making them troops. Plus the fact that Legion Astartes Dark
Angels units can also upgrade any heavy bolter to Molecular Acid Shells which are downright brutal on jetbikes. If you do this you might consider not taking upgraded weapons and just take all heavy bolters in the unit.

Take Night Lords and put Night Haunter with them. (see outrider section)

Alpha Legion Mutable Tactics and Alpharius like above.

And lastly, White Scars tactics and Chogorian Brotherhood......... If I have to tell you why these are good then jetbikes probably aren't the unit for you. The combination of bikes with skilled rider and hit and run are super brutal (broken In the opinion of a lot of people) in
40k so in the much tamer environs of 30k they are honestly kinda absurd. Especially when you consider they get upgraded to a 2+ save, heavy weapons on every model and the ability to turboboost farther along with the Swift Action rules. They are basically kinda like if a terminator got drunk and :cussed an Eldar scatterbike and gave birth to
an abomination. Self regulation is required with these if you want to keep friends.

While updating this I might as well talk attack bikes. These guys aren't super spectacular for their points unless you are running Dark Angel acid Heavy Bolters or Blood Angel Assault Cannon ones which are one of the better standard units in the game. Iron Hand or Chymerie "Option 1" dudes are pretty cool with Autocannons or Multi-Meltas strapped on them and look cool to. A lot of the tricks that work for
Jetbikes and Outriders apply to these guys so you can figure it out from here without me repeating a ton of stuff.