Legacy of Russ 6: Wolf Trap (Discussion)

[lovesmuffins]

Also, if you get a chance, please let folks know that they've screwed up the Wolf Lord of the 13 Company name in the last two codices.

Um, I can try. I should point out before I get a raft of these questions though, that us BL writers are very separate from the rest of GW. We just do our thing, independent of the design team or the central planners (except when we're brought in on projects like this one).

I agree with Valerian. It's always been a pet peeve of mine with that screw up! They haven't addressed it in the past nor corrected it when they've had so many opportunities to do so, especially with how easy it can be corrected in a digital format. It's a shame really.

Anyway, kinda off topic and completely off the record but... I've always had this theory that the changeling and the c'tan deciever are one and the same. If let's say that they're not, who do you think is the better out of the two?

Also how funny would it be if in one of your books (since this series is already done) Ragnar is describe with blonde hair like in the original white dwarf heavy metal pictures. Then suddenly painted black in future white dwarfs and art covers. Little things like that should be addressed because the little things matter also LMAO. I remember seeing an old Bjorn photo in the collected visions book. In that art book he had reddish hair, but in prospero book, he is described with black hair. Gaaah I don't mind but it's kinda annoying! Then again each artist and writer has their own personal touch and perspectives.

I can understand people's frustrations. But, sticking my neck out here, I think the other writers do a pretty good job at keeping things together collectively. Given that there have been dozens of Black Library authors down the years (and dozens more design studio writers) writings hundreds of books, making sure everything stays coherent is no easy task. In an ideal world I'd love to be able to sit down for a month or two and do really in-depth lore research for any given project, but deadlines and schedules (and not just BL ones) make that more or less impossible. Besides, one month I may be writing Space Wolves, the next it may be Eldar, and then orks, and so on. I've been actively involved in the hobby for seventeen years, but I know there will definitely be readers who possess more knowledge of their own particular factions than I do!

Except when it comes to the Space Sharks. Since getting the lowdown on their origins I Now Know All

The Sharks are nothing to snuff your nose at! Lol I always wanted someone to convert terminators for them into the street sharks....

[TheWolfLord]

 

 

 

Also, if you get a chance, please let folks know that they've screwed up the Wolf Lord of the 13 Company name in the last two codices.

 

Um, I can try. I should point out before I get a raft of these questions though, that us BL writers are very separate from the rest of GW. We just do our thing, independent of the design team or the central planners (except when we're brought in on projects like this one).

I agree with Valerian. It's always been a pet peeve of mine with that screw up! They haven't addressed it in the past nor corrected it when they've had so many opportunities to do so, especially with how easy it can be corrected in a digital format. It's a shame really.

Anyway, kinda off topic and completely off the record but... I've always had this theory that the changeling and the c'tan deciever are one and the same. If let's say that they're not, who do you think is the better out of the two?

Also how funny would it be if in one of your books (since this series is already done) Ragnar is describe with blonde hair like in the original white dwarf heavy metal pictures. Then suddenly painted black in future white dwarfs and art covers. Little things like that should be addressed because the little things matter also LMAO. I remember seeing an old Bjorn photo in the collected visions book. In that art book he had reddish hair, but in prospero book, he is described with black hair. Gaaah I don't mind but it's kinda annoying! Then again each artist and writer has their own personal touch and perspectives.

I can understand people's frustrations. But, sticking my neck out here, I think the other writers do a pretty good job at keeping things together collectively. Given that there have been dozens of Black Library authors down the years (and dozens more design studio writers) writings hundreds of books, making sure everything stays coherent is no easy task. In an ideal world I'd love to be able to sit down for a month or two and do really in-depth lore research for any given project, but deadlines and schedules (and not just BL ones) make that more or less impossible. Besides, one month I may be writing Space Wolves, the next it may be Eldar, and then orks, and so on. I've been actively involved in the hobby for seventeen years, but I know there will definitely be readers who possess more knowledge of their own particular factions than I do!

 

Except when it comes to the Space Sharks. Since getting the lowdown on their origins I Now Know All ;)

I listened to your interview last week on Combat Phase. I've got to admit I'm a little jealous, 40k is full of mysteries and to have access to some of them is essential in your position but must be a real privilege.

[Scyld Fireblade]

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to criticise the writer, I'm enjoying the series and given the author was told the beginning and the outcome he's trying to create a meaningful event that moves the story on without killing any major characters. If it wasn't happening to my Wolves I'd be enjoying it a lot more of course.

Then I'll criticize the author for you. He may write well but he has demonstrated ignorance of lore that has existed since at least 4th edition; he writes like he's absolutely enjoying the destruction of our chapter; he lacks the creativity to create dramatic threat through any means but killing ever greater and greater numbers of our chapter and destroying all of our system's defenses; and I for one hope to Russ and the Allfather that in the next book the author gets sucked into his own book, eaten alive by a great unclean one, and then pooped out the other end still breathing but busting at the seems with every foul disease known to Pappa Nurgle.

**spits on the ground to get even the mention of that author out of my mouth**

I feel like I should point out that Space Wolves aren't the only faction engaged in these stories. While fans of the Wolves may be lamenting losses (that still amount to well under 50% of the Chapter), there are Dark Angels readers who are demanding to know why no named Wolves are being killed off, why Fenris hasn't been bombarded and why the Inquisition hasn't declared the Wolves to be traitors. And that's not to mention all the daemon fans who think their faction are coming across as nothing more than fodder and aren't doing nearly enough damage to the Wolves, given this is one of the largest daemonic incursions in 40k lore. 

 

Speaking of the lore, I feel I should repeat the fact that getting to write about the Wolves is my biggest honour as an author to date (I mean, you could point out this is also my first full-length novel, but it still stands). I have nothing but respect for them. Unfortunately no matter who wins War Zone Fenris I'm going to lose it, given one side has to be defeated for there to be any progression.

As a person who has been playing GW games since the 1990s, and who has only ever played Space Wolves, painting space wolf models, scouring old White Dwarf articles for any scrap of Space Wolf lore, reading the flavor texts under all the pictures that decorate every corner of each edition of our codexes, and having written my own short stories and detailed history for my personal chapter, I hope that you can understand why I care so little about people who clamor for the absolute destruction of my favored chapter and where my anger comes from when I hear that their concerns are even contemplated however briefly. Upset because we're not seeing our named characters killed off? This isn't game of thrones.

 

I admit that in my frustration at watching my faction reduced to rubble I hadn't considered your feelings when I railed against you, and for that I apologize. But nothing less than what I wrote would adequately describe my impotent rage at losing something I'd always thought was inviolable. "Only 50% losses" for a chapter are huge. The loss of the defenses of our system leave us naked. As long as we are left strong I will probably get over it, but if we are left a shattered chapter with no way of defending ourselves, I won't.

 

Don't worry about it, writers should all have thick skins. But let me reassure you on the "50% casualties" matter, because it deserves examination. Of the 12 Great Companies, 5 are en-route to Fenris and are at this stage almost completely undamaged. That leaves Grimnar's, Egil's, Sven's, Harald's, Ragnar's, Bran's and Krom's Companies. Of the seven, Krom's suffered only minor losses in Curse of the Wulfen purging the Wolf Moon and are currently unengaged on Fenris. Ragnar's has so far suffered less than 20% casualties. Egil's withdrew to orbit above Midgardia after around 30% losses. Bran's has just arrive in-system undamaged. That means only Grimnar's, Sven's and Harald's Great Companies have taken any substantial hits, and by substantial I mean Sven and Harald's are approaching - but still haven't reached - 50% casualties. Grimnar's losses remain uncertain due to the Champions of Fenris being scattered underground, but we know they haven't been wiped out.

 

Now, given that the 13th are arriving to reinforce the Chapter, I'd say current losses are 20% or less. The worlds of the Fenris system have been damaged, certainly, but as I've said I didn't go about writing it purely as a Space Wolf fan. 

 

I don't post on here very often, but I would like to share something that I believe helps reinforce this point. Years ago I got the chance to speak with one of the game developers while in Bugman's (I am not saying which one without his permission). The question on the size of a great company has always been up for debate so I made a point of asking about it. As he explained it, just like for a codex chapter, some space wolves are considered command echelon, support, or in training and do not get counted when a great company's overall strength is listed. These warriors were not just the priests and scouts, but also the wolf guard and blood claws. Apparently only the grey hunters and long fangs are counted. This means that if Ragnar's company had at least 200 warriors, then those were 200 grey hunters and long fangs who are supported by an unknown number of blood claws, wolf guard, vehicle crews, scouts, etc. Even the smaller great companies are noticeably larger than a codex company and our Chapter as a whole much larger than any codex compliant ninnies. We can sustain much higher casualties than anyone else and be just fine. 

 

On another note I have a feeling that the dark angels are due for some serious problems when the changeling's manipulation of them is discovered, and their fans might not like the result. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I don't post on here very often, but I would like to share something that I believe helps reinforce this point. Years ago I got the chance to speak with one of the game developers while in Bugman's (I am not saying which one without his permission). The question on the size of a great company has always been up for debate so I made a point of asking about it. As he explained it, just like for a codex chapter, some space wolves are considered command echelon, support, or in training and do not get counted when a great company's overall strength is listed. These warriors were not just the priests and scouts, but also the wolf guard and blood claws. Apparently only the grey hunters and long fangs are counted. This means that if Ragnar's company had at least 200 warriors, then those were 200 grey hunters and long fangs who are supported by an unknown number of blood claws, wolf guard, vehicle crews, scouts, etc. Even the smaller great companies are noticeably larger than a codex company and our Chapter as a whole much larger than any codex compliant ninnies. We can sustain much higher casualties than anyone else and be just fine. 

 

While a little funny, I wish that were still the prevailing opinion. But if it ever was the ethos of the design team, that's definitively no longer the case. Remember, they've been giving us detailed manpower breakdowns of the Companies recently (something I think is a terrible idea btw), so we now know that Ragnar's Compnay had less than 200 men total, let alone 200 GHs/LFs before all this Warzone Fenris stuff.

[NightHowler]

Well, my heart goes out to our poor dress wearing brothers in green. They've been played. It's not as bad as having your entire home system ravaged, having whole planets firebombed, and being attacked on two fronts by friend and foe alike, but being played still sucks.

 

Maybe they'll have a few secrets revealed in addition to being played, and maybe it'll take some of the self-righteousness out their smirk. I'll sure miss that self-righteous smirk when it's gone though... just won't seem propper Dark Angel without it.

[Guest]

 

 

On another note I have a feeling that the dark angels are due for some serious problems when the changeling's manipulation of them is discovered, and their fans might not like the result. 

 

 

Well if that happens he will get the same dislike I have for Gav and Abnett :) And I wont read any more of his books :)

 

Well, my heart goes out to our poor dress wearing brothers in green. They've been played. It's not as bad as having your entire home system ravaged, having whole planets firebombed, and being attacked on two fronts by friend and foe alike, but being played still sucks.

 

Maybe they'll have a few secrets revealed in addition to being played, and maybe it'll take some of the self-righteousness out their smirk. I'll sure miss that self-righteous smirk when it's gone though... just won't seem propper Dark Angel without it.

 

Ragnar knows about the fallen and he has kept it a secret... Honour and all that. And this did start to make me like our flea-bitten kin :)

 

If we are self-righteous I would hate to think what the Space Wolves are :P

[Dantay VI]

Unjustly persecuted? :p

 

My best friend is a DA player, so I hope that the ending gets handled with tact and diplomacy.

 

Obviously as no characters are getting killed off, Azrael & co are safe, or atleast as safe as Canis and his Uber chipmunk

[Guest]

Unjustly persecuted?

My best friend is a DA player, so I hope that the ending gets handled with tact and diplomacy.

Obviously as no characters are getting killed off, Azrael & co are safe, or atleast as safe as Canis and his Uber chipmunk

No we are not, we serve our own agenda. Which brings us into conflict with other Imperial Forces, but the end justifies the means of capturing a fallen... And I genuinely think Ragnar understands... If he did not I think the relationship between DA and SW might be all out war. As the Wolves would see us as deserters and no better than Renegades or Oath breakers. :)

[Frater Cornelius]

Unjustly persecuted? :p

 

My best friend is a DA player, so I hope that the ending gets handled with tact and diplomacy.

 

Obviously as no characters are getting killed off, Azrael & co are safe, or atleast as safe as Canis and his Uber chipmunk

And by diplomacy I hope you mean that the other loyalists involved in this need to pay reparations to the SW for this entirely avoidable conflict. If the loyalists would have helped the SW instead of bombing them they would have suffered less casualties.

[b1soul]

Part of me just wants to see the SW and the DA throw down

 

 

As for which side is more arrogant...it's a tough a call, but I do think BL lavishes the most love upon the SW more than any other loyalist faction (the outcome of Warzone Fenris may just prove to be an exception)

 

I mean...when have SW ever been the punching bags of CSM or other loyalist SM...or any other faction for that matter?

 

When BL needs first founding loyalists to die...the list looks like this:

 

1. Imperial Fists

 

...

 

9. Space Wolves

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, but SW numbers are equally now. If another first founding Chapter gets ravaged, they just call on their successors and everything is jolly. Not so with SW. Every dead Wolf is one step closer to the end of the 6th and the legacy of Russ.

[b1soul]

Why did the Wolf Brothers go extinct again?

[Wulf Vengis]

Rampant mutation/wulfen/chaos taint/geneseed failures/inadequate recruit genetics. The list of possible reasons goes on for ages either take your pick or add your own hypothesis.

[Frater Cornelius]

Rampant mutation/wulfen/chaos taint/geneseed failures/inadequate recruit genetics. The list of possible reasons goes on for ages either take your pick or add your own hypothesis.

My guess is that 'one Chapter needed to have this issue to deal with and it might as well be Wolves' aka the writers decided that this would be an adequate development to forbid official successors to one of the more popular Chapters.

[Scyld Fireblade]

 

 

I don't post on here very often, but I would like to share something that I believe helps reinforce this point. Years ago I got the chance to speak with one of the game developers while in Bugman's (I am not saying which one without his permission). The question on the size of a great company has always been up for debate so I made a point of asking about it. As he explained it, just like for a codex chapter, some space wolves are considered command echelon, support, or in training and do not get counted when a great company's overall strength is listed. These warriors were not just the priests and scouts, but also the wolf guard and blood claws. Apparently only the grey hunters and long fangs are counted. This means that if Ragnar's company had at least 200 warriors, then those were 200 grey hunters and long fangs who are supported by an unknown number of blood claws, wolf guard, vehicle crews, scouts, etc. Even the smaller great companies are noticeably larger than a codex company and our Chapter as a whole much larger than any codex compliant ninnies. We can sustain much higher casualties than anyone else and be just fine. 

 

While a little funny, I wish that were still the prevailing opinion. But if it ever was the ethos of the design team, that's definitively no longer the case. Remember, they've been giving us detailed manpower breakdowns of the Companies recently (something I think is a terrible idea btw), so we now know that Ragnar's Compnay had less than 200 men total, let alone 200 GHs/LFs before all this Warzone Fenris stuff.

 

Actually I asked about this when Champions of Fenris was released. Those images are not meant to show a great company's full strength. They just show what forces the great company deployed to a specific battle/campaign. The rest of the great company is in reserve. As it was explained to me, this was done (at least originally) so we sons of Fenris could have an easier guide to follow when building a strike force rather than the very abstract full scale Great Companies. The codex marines are a little similar with their battle companies as an actual deployment for them consists of more than just the warriors of that company. The Dark Angels too, the size of the Ravenwing and Deathwing are undefined so example deployments are used as a guideline for players. Whether this all still holds true or not I have no idea, but until GW officially declares otherwise I choose to continue with the larger great companies. 

[Guest Triszin]

 

 

 

I don't post on here very often, but I would like to share something that I believe helps reinforce this point. Years ago I got the chance to speak with one of the game developers while in Bugman's (I am not saying which one without his permission). The question on the size of a great company has always been up for debate so I made a point of asking about it. As he explained it, just like for a codex chapter, some space wolves are considered command echelon, support, or in training and do not get counted when a great company's overall strength is listed. These warriors were not just the priests and scouts, but also the wolf guard and blood claws. Apparently only the grey hunters and long fangs are counted. This means that if Ragnar's company had at least 200 warriors, then those were 200 grey hunters and long fangs who are supported by an unknown number of blood claws, wolf guard, vehicle crews, scouts, etc. Even the smaller great companies are noticeably larger than a codex company and our Chapter as a whole much larger than any codex compliant ninnies. We can sustain much higher casualties than anyone else and be just fine. 

 

While a little funny, I wish that were still the prevailing opinion. But if it ever was the ethos of the design team, that's definitively no longer the case. Remember, they've been giving us detailed manpower breakdowns of the Companies recently (something I think is a terrible idea btw), so we now know that Ragnar's Compnay had less than 200 men total, let alone 200 GHs/LFs before all this Warzone Fenris stuff.

 

Actually I asked about this when Champions of Fenris was released. Those images are not meant to show a great company's full strength. They just show what forces the great company deployed to a specific battle/campaign. The rest of the great company is in reserve. As it was explained to me, this was done (at least originally) so we sons of Fenris could have an easier guide to follow when building a strike force rather than the very abstract full scale Great Companies. The codex marines are a little similar with their battle companies as an actual deployment for them consists of more than just the warriors of that company. The Dark Angels too, the size of the Ravenwing and Deathwing are undefined so example deployments are used as a guideline for players. Whether this all still holds true or not I have no idea, but until GW officially declares otherwise I choose to continue with the larger great companies. 

 

your last two posts made my day, and is in line with what I had read, and thought to be true. I just want some printed confirmation =/

 

inquistor: Ragnar how many marines do you have in your company?

 

Ragnar: uhh... Define marine?

 

inquistor: like a tacticla marine?

 

Ragnar: looks around, se..... two hundred. Yes I have two hundred equivalent to tactical marines... *giggles*

[Soldier of Dorn]

Actually I asked about this when Champions of Fenris was released. Those images are not meant to show a great company's full strength. They just show what forces the great company deployed to a specific battle/campaign. The rest of the great company is in reserve. As it was explained to me, this was done (at least originally) so we sons of Fenris could have an easier guide to follow when building a strike force rather than the very abstract full scale Great Companies. The codex marines are a little similar with their battle companies as an actual deployment for them consists of more than just the warriors of that company. The Dark Angels too, the size of the Ravenwing and Deathwing are undefined so example deployments are used as a guideline for players. Whether this all still holds true or not I have no idea, but until GW officially declares otherwise I choose to continue with the larger great companies. 

 

 

As an aside, this is very interesting to a non-Space Wolf player. Thanks for sharing it.

[TheWolfLord]

However, we know that the overal strength of the Space Wolves is not much higher than 2000. At the end of Battle of the Fang when every Space Wolf left in the Chapter was gathered and it was quoted to be 2000, they'd lost a full Great Company apart from 1 Wolf.

 

I can't imagine that 2000 wouldn't have included every single Space Wolf given the importance of the moment and I can't see a good reason why the chapter would have grown since then.

[Scyld Fireblade]

However, we know that the overal strength of the Space Wolves is not much higher than 2000. At the end of Battle of the Fang when every Space Wolf left in the Chapter was gathered and it was quoted to be 2000, they'd lost a full Great Company apart from 1 Wolf.

 

I can't imagine that 2000 wouldn't have included every single Space Wolf given the importance of the moment and I can't see a good reason why the chapter would have grown since then.

You can't judge the wolves' current strength from a single past event. First, it was more than just 1 great company that was decimated in that story. There were the reserves in the Fang too, and losses were suffered when the rest of the chapter destroyed the heavily fortified decoy world that Magnus tricked the great wolf into attacking. Not to mention we have no idea how many warriors had already been lost during Ironhelm's long hunt for Magnus and when they returned to save Fenris at the end. Second, thousands of years separate that event from Curse of the Wulfen. All sorts of things can happen in that time. Back in one of the old Ragnar novels it even says that the wolves have been reduced down to a single great company on 3 different occasions and still recovered. The fact is we do not know the full strength of the wolves in the current story, we can only guess. If we are logical about it then we could make a decent guess as to the strength of Ragnar's company (or even Grimnar's if we wished). Start with the 200 battle brothers (grey hunters/long fangs). Then add support elements based on what that force should be able to maintain. The other great companies are of course smaller, but even if we are conservative about it then each should have at least a similar number of battle brothers to a codex company, plus all of the blood claws/wolf guard/scouts/and others needed to sustain and support the great company. 

[Fang_Guard23]

great companies are large enough to deploy multiple great packs to multiple areas of war. Also remember that the wolves have garrisoned forces in other areas of their protectorate, ship patrols and outposts 

[b1soul]

Rampant mutation/wulfen/chaos taint/geneseed failures/inadequate recruit genetics. The list of possible reasons goes on for ages either take your pick or add your own hypothesis.

Yes...but the Wolf Brothers are eseentially the same as the SW, except for organizational separation.

 

It has to be tied to distance from Fenris

[Scyld Fireblade]

 

Rampant mutation/wulfen/chaos taint/geneseed failures/inadequate recruit genetics. The list of possible reasons goes on for ages either take your pick or add your own hypothesis.

Yes...but the Wolf Brothers are eseentially the same as the SW, except for organizational separation.

 

It has to be tied to distance from Fenris

 

It doesn't have to be the distance from Fenris. That is merely one of many possibilities. Since we know next to nothing about the Wolf Brothers we can't even make much of a guess as to what happened. If the distance bit is what you like then that is fine, but it is only your opinion. The rest of us may or may not agree with you. It might be interesting to set up a poll and see if there are any prevailing opinions.

[BT_Cennar]

Brothers i dont understand why many of you are so eager to have high numbers for the VI.

Herein there is NO strength in numbers, we have scince ever been one of the smaller Legions/Chapters and for me this is more then okay.

As a German Landsknecht from the 30years war once said: Viel Feind viel Ehr, (much enemy, much honor).

For Russ and Allvather.

And to our Brothers in Green: those who climb high, fall deep.

We will watch your steps .

[Valerian]

++Not the Thread for Debating Great Company Sizes.  Back on topic, please.++

[NightHowler]

Besides, it's not the size of the great company that matters. It's how you ram it up your opponent's backfield.