Greyspell Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Here we are again! In the past I have been a notable proponent of there being no solid argument for the choice of twin transonic blades over the chordclaw and razor combo. However, with the upcoming FAQ in regards to grenades being limited to one per unit in combat, the gap has been closed and a dataspike (available to both loadouts) is now the largest factor in haywire capability. As a side note, I have heard that (not done the mathhammer myself) the transonic razors cause more glancing hits against AV10 rear armour than haywire anyway (through weight of attacks). With transonic blades being even more effective due to +1 Str. *edit* My mathhammer didn't come out correctly here so I have edited it to a shortened version. MarineEQ Transonic blades - 4.083 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 3.369 wounds GuardEQ Transonic blades - 11.667 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 11.667 wounds OrkEQ Transonic blades - 8.750 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 7.416 wounds TauEQ Transonic blades - 7.000 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 7.000 wounds TerminatorEQ Transonic blades - 2.917 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 2.694 wounds *edit* As you can see, I have been doing a little mathhammer. The results are that the twin transonic blades win out versus troops every time (sometimes by a little, sometimes by a moderate amount). With this in mind and the changes to grenades, the advantage of the chordclaw and razor loadout is diminished to the charge through cover bonus. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts, and if my mathhammer is incorrect please do let me know. I do have the data for the 2nd round with AP2 but it comes out the same as the charge with transonic blades equal or better in all match ups. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterkho Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Isn't the cord claw with fleshbane? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Isn't the cord claw with fleshbane? It is but it's only a single attack with fleshbane combined with the razors reduced strength compared to the blade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyspell Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 I have accounted for the fleshbane attack in the mathhammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 With the new FAQ, I definitely have to agree that the math plays out in favor of the TSBs in the majority of scenarios. Though I do have to wonder who is still using Ruststalkers at this point, as it seems locally they just get cleaned off the board by massed Autocannon/Missile Pod spam. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HackedDuck Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 With the new FAQ, I definitely have to agree that the math plays out in favor of the TSBs in the majority of scenarios. Though I do have to wonder who is still using Ruststalkers at this point, as it seems locally they just get cleaned off the board by massed Autocannon/Missile Pod spam. I still use them and it is surprising how tough they are against things like bolter Fire. how about a tough target like a wraithknight or a MC which would be better then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyspell Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 how about a tough target like a wraithknight or a MC which would be better then? Something very interesting indeed! The Wraithknight is toughness 8 (which is crazy). Wrightknight - 1st Round Transonic blades - 1.750 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 3.416 wounds In theory the Ruststalkers can wipe out the Wraithlord on this first round in the charge. In the second round as below, the results are similar except that other than the 1 fleshbane attack the other attacks cannot hurt the Wraithlord at all. Despite this, it still comes out on top of the transonic blades. Wrightknight - 2nd Round Transonic blades - 1.333 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 2.083 wounds I really don't think that Ruststalkers are the right counter for Wraithlords but if they can cause 3 wounds on the charge, who knows? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 No math hammer myself but my games corroborate it. Blades kill more marines but Chord is useful for that one big MC. Having built 3 squads (for the Formation) I have 1 w/Chord, 2 w/Blades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 how about a tough target like a wraithknight or a MC which would be better then? Something very interesting indeed! The Wraithknight is toughness 8 (which is crazy). Wrightknight - 1st Round Transonic blades - 1.750 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 3.416 wounds In theory the Ruststalkers can wipe out the Wraithlord on this first round in the charge. In the second round as below, the results are similar except that other than the 1 fleshbane attack the other attacks cannot hurt the Wraithlord at all. Despite this, it still comes out on top of the transonic blades. Wrightknight - 2nd Round Transonic blades - 1.333 wounds Chordclaw & razor - 2.083 wounds I really don't think that Ruststalkers are the right counter for Wraithlords but if they can cause 3 wounds on the charge, who knows? Correct me if I'm wrong but transonic weapons always wound on a 6 so with enough attacks they can tear into monstrous creatures just fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I've only fielded my ruststalkers a couple times (they're a recent addition to my army) but their ability to charge through cover at initiative has helped every single time I've charged them. I will give them a shot with the blades, but if I had fielded them with blades so far they would have had heavier losses in every major fight they've been in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrim Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I definitely wouldn't advise pitting Ruststalkers vs a WK, it will stomp on them before they get to use the transonic AP2 (which is a pretty lame rule). That said though I find Ruststalkers are a good compliment to Infiltrators. I mostly only run them in War Convo though, too much S6+ ignores cover stuff out there. Leave GC killing to the Grav Destroyers or IKs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyspell Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 Correct me if I'm wrong but transonic weapons always wound on a 6 so with enough attacks they can tear into monstrous creatures just fine. I accounted for this effect which is essentialy rending but with guaranteed ap2 in second round. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicHat Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Consider me still unconvinced. I will not trade the ability to charge through cover on initiative, put out 2 extra haywire A on a turn (thrown and melee) and extra MC killing for some minor boosts against T4-5. And T6 (I guess?), but that is still irrelevant (for skitarii/CM) because we have grav to frag those. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4438450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterkho Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 If i know my opponent is bring some sort of close combat vehicle (hey there deamonengines of Khorne) then the ruststalkers are my go to guys. i can usually get a higher weaponskill, strike most of the times first and with a 8 man unit i get 9 haywire attacks with zealot. In any other case infiltrators are better then ruststalkers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4441240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Just noting again, there's a huge difference in the Blade vs Ravor choice when we are talking about 1 Unit of Rusts vs say 3 Units of Rusts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323788-another-look-at-the-ruststalker/#findComment-4441547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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