Librarian Dred vs Imperial Guard

[Charlo]

I don't think it's ambiguous at all. Only if yo u really try and look for it like you have.

[Red-beard]

Agree with the posts above, there is no ambiguity. Psykers in the BA codex have access to the new powers. Access is granted to the whole codex, not on a unit by unit basis. Librarian dreads are treated no differently in this regard as regular librarians. 

 

To the OP, glad to see people getting some mileage out of libby dreads. I think they're great fun and am hopeful GW will give us some cool new ways to get them into our lists in the future (ie. libby dread formations). I'm not sure what list you ran, but if you're looking to make your libby dread a little more survivable, you might want to consider a Lucius droppod. The dread can disembark the turn he arrives and stand on one of the doors for a +2 shrouded bonus to his cover save. Additionally, if you rolled some witchfire powers, he can remain embarked and fire those from within. 

[CaptainHelion]

that means strike squads could roll on Geokinesis or no unit actually gets the new disciplines.

 

I'm not sure why you keep saying this. Strike squads, and most other Grey Knight units, don't generate powers at all. They know their specific powers. There's no point in which they choose a discipline to generate powers from.

[Quixus]

Because the cards give them permission, just as the cards give librarian dreadnoughts permission to choose from the new disciplines. Either both or none of the units get permission, you cannot cherry pick, even though that most likely is the intention of the rules.

[Charlo]

Why would the card give them permission, if they do not get to generate powers in the first place?

 

Nothing has changed. It is as it was, just where some models had 5 disciplines they now have 9 or whatever.

[CaptainHelion]

"Any Psyker with the Space Marine Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geomancy disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to" is the quotation from Angels of Death. The psychic cards and Word of God from GW extends that over to Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Space Wolves. None of these things allow units that don't generate powers to generate powers.

[Charlo]

"Any Psyker with the Space Marine Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geomancy disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to" is the quotation from Angels of Death. The psychic cards and Word of God from GW extends that over to Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Space Wolves. None of these things allow units that don't generate powers to generate powers.

 

Cheers for the quotation Helion!

 

The only ambiguity is the "in addition", but as you are not generating powers on as Strike Squad, then you wouldn't even get that far.

[Quixus]

 

"Any Psyker with the Space Marine Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geomancy disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to" is the quotation from Angels of Death. The psychic cards and Word of God from GW extends that over to Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Space Wolves. None of these things allow units that don't generate powers to generate powers.

 

Cheers for the quotation Helion!

 

The only ambiguity is the "in addition", but as you are not generating powers on as Strike Squad, then you wouldn't even get that far.

 

The rulebook gives us:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

 

and C:GK:

Psyker:

Strike Squads know the Banishment and Hammerhand powers from the Daemonology (Sanctic) discipline.

So it is clear that Stike Squads cannot generate any other powers.

 

Now AoD comes along and gives us the rule above (I replaced Space Marines with Grey Knights)

Any Psyker with the Grey Knights Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geomancy disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to" is the quotation from Angels of Death. The psychic cards and Word of God from GW extends that over to Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Space Wolves. None of these things allow units that don't generate powers to generate powers.

So this gives the Strike Squad (a psyker with the Grey Knights Faction) the ability to generate powers from those disciplines.

[Rafen IX]

Agree with the posts above, there is no ambiguity. Psykers in the BA codex have access to the new powers. Access is granted to the whole codex, not on a unit by unit basis. Librarian dreads are treated no differently in this regard as regular librarians. 

 

To the OP, glad to see people getting some mileage out of libby dreads. I think they're great fun and am hopeful GW will give us some cool new ways to get them into our lists in the future (ie. libby dread formations). I'm not sure what list you ran, but if you're looking to make your libby dread a little more survivable, you might want to consider a Lucius droppod. The dread can disembark the turn he arrives and stand on one of the doors for a +2 shrouded bonus to his cover save. Additionally, if you rolled some witchfire powers, he can remain embarked and fire those from within.

 

Ah the Lucius pattern is an excellent suggestion but I didn't want to run it without the model, I was already using a Sicaran. It's a perfect dred delivery system. My librarian dred and his brother furioso and even the death company ones are enjoying the new lease on life. When we had the changes to physic powers my flying dreds became a thing of the past and those few attacks led to him being tar pitted for the rest of the game.

I'd give my right arm for a librarian dred formation!!

[Charlo]

But it doesnt give them the ability to, as they could never generate in the first place.

 

It says that they can generate, but as they wouldn't anyway there is no generating to be had regardless.

 

I can see where you are coming from Quixus, but it's just pure pedantry.

 

+++

 

Totally agree on the Lucius pod - cannot argue with a 5++ 3HP AV12 Shield. Only problem for a Libby dread is that you could only cast Witchfire on your turn if you stay embarked!

[LutherMax]

 

Psyker:Strike Squads know the Banishment and Hammerhand powers from the Daemonology (Sanctic) discipline.

As others have said, the difference is that Strike Squads know those specific powers only as opposed to, for example, Mephiston who has his specific powers and can also generate from the Disciplines listed in his entry and now the ones on the cards.

[Quixus]

Yes, that is a difference in the codex, however the cards do not restrict the ability to generate powers from the new disciplines to units that normally had a choice. They grant it to any psyker from certain factions. Without such a restriction that means the strike squad (and any other unit that normally cannot roll for disciplines) now is able to.

 

The space marine faction does not have that problem because there are no psyker units that don't have a choice of disciplines. By casually making the new disciplines available to other factions, they probably haven't thought of that issue.

[LutherMax]

Yes, that is a difference in the codex, however the cards do not restrict the ability to generate powers from the new disciplines to units that normally had a choice.

They grant it to any psyker from certain factions. Without such a restriction that means the strike squad (and any other unit that normally cannot roll for disciplines) now is able to.

I don't think it does mean that. The Strike Squad never could and still can't generate any powers. They only get access to the specific ones listed. Psykers that generate all their powers are able to generate them from the powers on the cards, and Psykers who have specific named powers and can generate more up to their mastery level limit, can.

 

Does the Strike Squad have a mastery level listed? That might clear this up because if it's 2, when a player would try to generate their powers from the cards they'd realise they'd already reached their limit due to the powers they already know which cannot be un-known!

[DarkAngeal]

I was really interested to read about some cool ways to field a librarian dreadnought on this page. I am wondering if you like using a raven to drop it off in CC range, possibly with an assault or death company squad to team up with it?

[Indefragable]

ok.....at the risk of getting this thread locked: Quixius, you have made your point that GW could make things absolutely Walter-White's-signature-product clear with their wording, but the logic just does not make sense with your argument. If what you are saying were true, than the new Space Marine psyker powers would be unusable by ANYONE since there are no unit profiles in the entire game that specifically say "can access Technomancy, Fulmination, " etc... They would have to re-write EVERY single Codex to explicitly lay that out. 

 

Back to OP:

I think Librarian dreads have serious potential now that they have more attacks base. I think they are our dedicated MC-hunters (5+ attacks at S10 AP2 Force at I5+ will HURT). My concern is it getting popped before it can do anything. I would serious consider a Dreadnought Drop Pod (Lucius Pattern?) from Forge World: the Dread can stay inside it like a normal transport so the enemy has to pop the pod before hurting the Dread inside. Yes it adds even more cost, 50pts/$$$$$, but it may well be worth it. I usually proxy the Dreadnought Drop Pod by using a regular pod and just keeping it closed until Turn 2. Most people would find that fair, I think, as long as you specify which Pod is what. 

 

In general, I try to "go big or go home" with Dreadnoughts: If I am bringing a Libby Dread, then I try to bring 2+ Furiosos for AV13 Spam. And of course Cassor for a Troops slot. 

 

In terms of the Discipline to use....I think you can't go wrong with any of those. For a Libby Dread specifically against guard....I would lean towards things that buff it up (AV14/13/11?, 3++) or spread out the pain to blobls. S10 AP2 attacks will really hurt any big scary vehicles he may bring. Your worries are getting popped at range and/or tarpitted. 

 

Sanguinary would not be bad at all:

P: even more attacks and Fleet to make sure you can charge things (don't forget your magna-grapple lets you re-roll Charges against vehicles!)

1. Fear of the Darkness will make them even more likely to run away

2. MOAR attacks

3. 5++ never hurts

4. Blood Boil can be AMAZING against a blob

5. Lance a line of tanks

6. Hop to the other side of the board or float some flamers/meltas over into the right position

[Jolemai]

Actually pretty busy at the moment but I'll split out the pedantry into a new thread in a day or so (if Morticon hasn't done it sooner). By all means, discuss the use of the Librarian Dreadnought in the meantime.

[CaptainHelion]

I think all the available disciplines have a lot of value on a libby dread, against guard especially . The more I think about it, the more certain on that I feel. Obviously some are better, but there's really no going wrong.

Pyromancy? Heavy flamers, novas, beams, a psyker only invulnerable save. All nice things.

Divination speaks for itself, as does telepathy and the new disciplines.

Biomancy? Hilariously, anything but Iron Arm will do you good. Enfeeblemnt is particularly hilarious. What's that? Wounding on twos with bolters? Why not!

[Red-beard]

Divination speaks for itself, as does telepathy and the new disciplines.

Remember...no telepathy for BA psykers.

[Red-beard]

I was really interested to read about some cool ways to field a librarian dreadnought on this page. I am wondering if you like using a raven to drop it off in CC range, possibly with an assault or death company squad to team up with it?

 

 

Personally, I don't like using a SR to deliver my librarian dreadnought for several reasons:

1) While in reserve, he's not contributing to your psyker dice pool and not sharing psychic hood with nearby units. 

2) Earliest he's charging is turn 3, and it could be turn 4 or 5 if you roll poorly

3) Having lost dreadnoughts due to my SR crashing, I don't like the "all eggs in one basket" approach. 

 

In my opinion, the Lucius drop pod really is the best way to go. You can fire witchfires while embarked and remain in your AV12 protective bubble. Alternately, if you want to cast a non-witchfire power, you can disembark onto the doors and be guaranteed a cover save the turn you arrive. If you deploy tactically and leverage blocking terrain or intervening models, it's very easy to get a 3+ cover save. That improves to 2+ if night fighting is in play or you're 25% obscured in ruins. 

[CaptainHelion]

I droppod mine or start them on the board, for much the same reasons as Red-Beard. I usually end up using him as a mix of backfield defense or hiking up the board behind TacBacks providing psychic support.

[Charlo]

I might run two in my next match, see what I can do with them both dropping down with Technomancy or something.

[CaptainHelion]

With technomancy in particular, I believe either the repair or the buffet to AV can be used on the psyker's dedicated transport whilst embarked. What's that? My AV12 lucius droppod is AV13 now? And it still has a 5+ cover save? Yes please.

[Red__Thirst]

Sadly, you cannot cast anything but witchfires while embarked on a transport, otherwise that would be most excellent there Helion. 

 

I personally am in the process of painting up my Librarian Dreadnought for the ETL, and have it at about ~40% completed (base and legs are done, and front torso is in progress now).

 

I have fielded the Librarian Dread as an HQ twice now, using one of my old dreads as a proxy in friendly games.  I went with the Fulmination tree as it seemed to have the most 'good' options of the total listed, particularly for a drop pod deployed dreadnought.

 

Most every power in the tree is useful. 

 

3++ save for the dread for 1 warp charge?  Yes please!

 

9" Haywire Nova power, also for 1 warp charge?  Useful, especially if you're around a lot of vehicles. 

 

Move a targeted unit (which can be the Dreadnought) 18" in the psychic phase.  Handy for getting your dreadnought up the field.  Tougher to pull off at 2 warp charges, but still good

 

And of course the switcheroo power - 24" range, switch the Dreadnought for a friendly unit and still allows for the charge afterward.  Scouts deploy into infiltrate and move toward the enemy, or drop a squad of tactical marines near an enemy unit.  Then in the psychic phase swap them up and let the Dreadnought romp into close combat early game.

 

I see this as being an effective way to deal with a bike star or similar style power list.  At least, that's my view on it.  

 

The Technomancy tree is also awesome, but I like the Fulmination tree a lot for the stuff it gives. 

 

Take it easy.

 

-Red__Thirst-

[NTaW]

Sadly, you cannot cast anything but witchfires while embarked on a transport, otherwise that would be most excellent there Helion. 

 

Several Technomancy powers specifically state they may be cast while embarked upon a transport vehicle. Specifically: Blessing of the Machine (PotMS or +1BS if they already have it), Reforge (repair damage), and Warpmetal Armour (+1 AV all sides).

 

"If the Psyker is embarked on a Transport vehicle, he may still attempt to manifest this psychic power, but may only target the vehicle he is embarked on."

[CaptainHelion]

Thanks, NTaW, those are exactly what I was thinking of. In fact, the only power you can't cast out of the pod, then, is Subvert Machine, as it's a malediction. The rest have either exemptions or are witchfires of a sort.

 

Red-Beard, I definitely agree with you about Fulmination! It has a LOT of utility for a Libby dread.