Master of Asgard Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I'm wondering how to kit out my support squads for my 30k BAs. I don't have a fixed list as I prefer to have plenty of units and then mix and match. The performance of my 4 missile launcher 40k devestator squad has already convinced me to pad them out to a 10 man squad, but I'm thinking about special support squads now...So basically I'm looking for an assassin unit and I'm torn between just going cheap and cheerful with basic flamers, or going full on and decking them out with 10 plasma guns!I'm also seriously considering going with a dreadclaw to get them in range. The only other option would be a rhino but I think that's better for a seeker squad.So pros and cons: - Flamers are cheap and can put a huge amount of wounds on any given infantry unit, but will they really cut the mustard versus the really nasty units out there? It would also be difficult to place 10 templates without clipping my own guys. - Plasmas are horribly expensive but a first turn volley of 20 S7 AP2 will basically kill more or less anything right? Plus the ability to threaten anything up to armour 13. - Rhino is cheap but a very easy target for such a potentially expensive unit. - Deathclaw is pricey but reliable and can put out some, admittedly limited, damage itself. Thanks for reading, what are your thoughts on this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironwithout Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 OK here goes. Rhino.....crap people will know what's in it and pop it ASAP and then your squad is doing nothing. Dreadclaw......I'm afraid it's not reliable. It's a gamble as it doesn't have inertial guidance. Having said that this would be my choice every time. The other thing you need to know is apparently the new book is going to make it so you can only disembark within 2" of the hull not the normal disembark rules which will make it a bit harder to use. As a white Scars player with the Cyber Hawk I go plasma all the time. But as you don't have that luxury I would worry about blowing yourself up. Also melta is viable for this sort of unit. Knights don't have armoured ceramite and 10 melta guns even without the 2d6 are still going to do some damage. Also they will instant death things like justarian as they are S8. So choices for me 1. Plasma ( if you don't mind killing yourself. 2. Melta 3. Flames Just my 2 cents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Ironwithout got there first but I'll post anyway as I wrote it all - basically what he said... Have you considered taking a 10-man squad with Meltaguns? Especially if you're thinking of putting them in a Drop Pod. They are shorter range than Plasma Guns (although they are actually the same range if you want 20 Plasma shots) bt this doesn't matter if you're dropping them right into the thick of it. They have a higher Strength and better AP than Plasma Guns. And although they fire less shots, 20 Plasma shots is going to kill several of your own squad with Gets Hot! Not much can survive mass Meltagun fire!! And S8 will Instant Death! Plus, if you happen to come across any Vehicles without Armoured Ceramite (think most Walkers, Rhinos, other backfield vehicles that may have been neglected to save points) you will destroy them with that many Meltaguns! Now, this unit will be a HUGE fire magnet so worst case scenario they arrive in the pod, get a single volley off, and are then ripped to shreds by every remaining enemy unit!! Even this is a plus as the rest of your army is untouched for as this squad immediately becomes a priority target and your opponent won't dare let them get any more shots off once they see what they can do. Only problem being they will be a very high cost unit, but will almost certainly make their points back if they shoot anything. To be honest, the psychological value of this unit is a win itself - I would say more-so than Plasma as if I was facing the Plasma Squad I would just be thinking 'fine, kill my squad, but you'll save me the job of killing yours in return [Gets Hot]' I see you haven't mentioned these in your choices though, so if that hasn't sold you, and you want an opinion of Flamer v Plasma here you go: Flamer + Massed Wall of Death Overwatch is awesome! + Mass Templates should get a huge number of hits! - Spacing is essential or the back half of the squad won't get to shoot without hitting your guys. - Pretty much everything is 3+/2+. They will all get saves! And whilst the sheer number of hits you can cause is scary, most will be saved. Of course with such a high number of saves a few will fail, but it's not reliable. Plasma + High Strength + Low AP + 20 shots at 12" - Gets Hot WILL decimate this squad without re-rolls/Preferred Enemy. - Very expensive. If you had to choose between these two, Plasma, but I would very much suggest Melta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Asgard Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 Definite food for thought, thanks for your replies. I was indeed thinking that Armoured Ceramite would hinder meltas and was thinking of targeting elite infantry units with the plasmas. However I didn't at all consider the Instant Death aspect of melta which does make them more flexible, even though they have significantly less range.What are your thoughts on putting an Apothecary with combi plas in with the plasma gunners? It would save a lot of Gets Hot but it just makes an already expensive unit even more expensive...I would love to put either of the 3 options in a normal drop pod but unfortunately that will be limited to when I run the Orbital Asault RoW, so I figured the Dreadclaw was the next best thing for other RoWs.I was also wondering about the Volkite options as they seem to be a middle ground between strength and cost, but then they're not really specialising in anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironwithout Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 The Dreadclaw gives you more flexibility as if you don't have an ideal target turn 1 you can drop it out of line of sight and fly it across the board later. I would say no to the Apothacary personally. A 10 man plasma/melta unit would and in my experience does attract every gun in the enemy army and no Apothacary is going to keep them alive past a single turn. They have one of the highest damage outputs in the game. Personally i think melta guns are very underated in 30k due to armoured ceramite. they have so many more uses especially with frustrating multi wond terminators around. also watch your opponent cry when you pop his 400 odd point Atropas turn 1 haha. Volkite is a hard one. I personally don't rate it in a game of mainly 3+ armour saves even with deflagerate you are not going to get more then 1 or maybe 2 additional kills if you're really lucky. Having said that i'm sure many on this forum will burn me as a traitor for saying such things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 No worries. Armoured Ceramite isn't going to be a huge issue to be honest. All Dreadnoughts (excluding Leviathans) can't take it and they are a good target for a Melta unit as they can be dangerous. Transports and Knights are fair game too. But Armoured Ceramite has given Meltas a very different use in 30k. They are your elite infantry killers with Instant Death and they will scare the enemy. As for Plasmas. An Apothecary isn't that necessary as you will get Armour Saves for Gets Hot wounds. (20 shots = 3/4 1's on average and you'll save 66% of those. Feel No Pain could help, but you might still lose guys) With such an expensive unit, I wouldn't look to get more saves, but get less 1's. A Level 1 Librarian with Artificer Armour, Refractor Field and a Combi Plasma is only 125 Points. (145 for level 2 but I'm thinking points here as he may die after) If he takes Divination you'll get Prescience as your Psychic Focus and whatever other power you roll. Prescience allows re-rolls to hit. Basically, you disembark, cast Prescience (with probably every dice you get to ensure it can't be denied), and then every 1 you roll can be re-rolled effectively negating Gets Hot. You might still get the odd 1 with a re-roll but it's nothing to worry about now. If you also get the Divination power (I forget the name) that gives a 4+ Inv, your squad might even survive the inevitable onslaught after unloading 20 shots to get back in the dreadclaw and fly off - dreadclaw is the one that can move right? But as Ironwithout said, this target will be shot to pieces after one round of shooting so the Librarian makes this squad an even bigger investment that could just be wiped in one turn. I would either just go Melta or take Plasma and hope you save Gets Hot/except casualties. As for Volkites, I wouldn't bother with them for what you want. Chargers have just as short range, and high AP. 2 shots each and S5 is nice but Flamers will probably force saves better. Calivers are better in a gunline as they are Heavy 2. But S6 is good, although still high AP. I would go either Melta or Plasma to be honest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Rotor cannons. Duh. :P But no, I think a master of signal with Melta is a great investment even. Really make those shots count. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I'll be honest, volkite every time. Much cheaper than melta or plasma and 20 shots hitting on 3s wounding on 2s, what's not to like? Yeah the ap is high but considerably cheaper than alternatives. Great range and can pop a lot of transports too. I've been playing volkite since 30k started and never looked back. Melta/plasma is 150 for a full squad as opposed to 50 for volkite... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtDan Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Choom choom! Love volkites. I would take flamers over plasma as much more fun.plus I'm deathguard so get shred. But as above if choice of all types I'd prob take melta. Reliable. Don't kill yourself and can kill pretty much anything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4439812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimm Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Personally I love how effective plasma cam be but it hurts when they all die. My general fav as a wb player is to run 10 volkite chargers in a pod to support the melee units. They are reasonably priced, good at killing marines (I usually target heavy support squads if any) and most of all are pretty fun to use. Plasma gets the job done vs elites and light vehicles but it's so expensive on 3+ models you have to use them pretty smartly. Flamers, in pods they are fun but never find them hugely effective but ok if your against say a fluffy death guard foot slog list with loads of targets. Melta, 5 man podded is really good for contemptor hunting but with ceramite being so widely available and often taken they have little to offer over plasmas other than being ap1 Rotor canons. Nope Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Asgard Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 So basically none of the above? I'm looking at doing an orbital assault list with a squad of 5 flamers and 10 meltas... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I fear melts squads above all. My Leviathan was immobilized facing away from the bulk of stuff by a lucky melta shot from ten inches away. AC or not melta will do the job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I think assault cannons would be a heavy support choice, but boy would that be fun in a pod or rhino, I might even play test it actually, along with the Baal variant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Only problem is you'd be snap shooting on the drop and then a massive target afterwards. Assault Cannons are better on Attacks Bikes and Predators. And also by AC I think shandwen meant armored ceramite :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Asgard Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 Just had a thought... what about podding in heavy flamers instead of normal ones in a heavy support squad? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 If you have a Heavy Support Slot Free (I certainly never do)...I mean, I guess. But there are usually much killier and potent things in Heavy Support than 5-10 heavy flamers on MEQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Just had a thought... what about podding in heavy flamers instead of normal ones in a heavy support squad? Or Multi-Meltas? But as Slipstreams said, you might not have those slots spare, especially if you're already planning on taking a Missile Launcher squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Asgard Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 Yeah you guys are right. It's just that I have 3 kicking around from 40k tactical squads and otherwise they might never see play at this rate! But yeah a HS slot is too valuable to give up on something like that, considering the alternatives! Anyway I just put together 5 melta guys and waiting on an ebay delivery for the rest Just changing the topic slightly, apart from being a pain in the butt to build, what is the general consensus on the Storm Eagle with 20 guys in it? I'm thinking 19 tacs and an Apothecary and giving the Eagle the Multimelta and Lascannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4440999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Trust me, I always look at the 5 Heavy Flamer marines in my cabinet and go "Maybe in a ZM game?" And even then I don't bring them. Eh. Its expensive and liable to get shot out of the sky the turn it arrives by a Deredeo and killing everything inside. A Kharybdis does the same job but better with slightly less offensive punch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4441004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Asgard Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 Yeah but the Kharydbis is £60 more! Although point wise they come out about the same after the upgrades I wanted to give the Eagle. What makes it better, the fact that it can auto-arrive turn 1? Isn't it still susceptible to interceptor fire? I notice it has 5 HP which is pretty sweet... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4441012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Yeah, DPA is a big one and, since it arrives with Inertial Guidance, you can EASILY plop it down out of LoS of any Skyfire/Interceptor and the Flat Out into a better position afterwards while still having Jink and 2 HP more than a Storm Eagle. It also has 5 pinning missile launchers that, while it cannot tackle heavier Av, can still shoot at different Targets. And after it drops off its cargo it can then just fly around being a giant nuisance by burninating and missile blasting stuff. The Storm Raven, at best, is on the table T2 unless you've got T1 Reserves or T4 if you're unlucky, has a predictable entry point unless you give it outflank, is much more fragile with 3HP and can only ever really tackle 2 Targets with low volume, high powered weapons. And if it gets shot out of the sky while not in Hover mode (like when it enters play from reserves), everybody inside has a pretty good chance of just straight up dying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4441025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Asgard Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 Just as an aside the Eagle has 4 HP, but you've convinced me on the Kharbidibidys with your awesome description of flying around burninating stuff! It does make me wonder if it's slightly wasted on a mere tactical squad though, being as expensive (points-wise) as it is? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4441042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Well, 20 dudes that you place onto an Objective rather early on, especially if its +/- in your opponents deployment zone or close enough can possibly make him waste a turn or two neutralizing them or wiping them out, bonus points if you get a Spartan Death Squad to disembark. You're also not forced to get them to hop out after the initial drop and if your army evolves further at some point, it makes for a good Primarch Taxi Alternative for the Spartan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4441050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I'd merrily drop a kharybdis full of terminators, probably cataphractii as a challenge. Huge points sink but cheaper delivery system than a Spartan (points not pounds :( ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4441077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 The unwritten downside of plasma guns is you have to roll every individual models to hit rolls separately. Because of gets hot. With the recent nerf to sicarans and Spartans, there might be a bit less armoured Ceramite around. And now that you can shoot dreads that pod in... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323842-best-support-squad-load-out/#findComment-4443522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.