Soldier of Dorn Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I'm reading it the same way as Nusquam here. If that's the case, it seems a bit of a weird caveat to make since the only way to assault a Dread in a pod would be to go into the pod itself to get base-to-base contact, which would already be illegal but maybe since they already made an exception for shooting attacks they wanted to prevent any possible shenanigans? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 The third bullet to the section is where it all comes together I think: "The rule lasts form the player turn in which the DDP landed until the controlling player's next player turn. After this point, both the Drop Pod and Dreadnought may be assaulted and shot at normally." Why would they include this, especially the assault part of this rule, if they weren't explicitly changing the way units could assault dreadnoughts? If we interpret it the way you are saying, then turn 1 you can shoot at the dreadnought inside and not assault it. The next turn, if it remains embarked, you can't shoot at it and can't assault it either as per the normal rules of shooting and assault. That makes no sense at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 · Hidden by Flint13, July 19, 2016 - No reason given Hidden by Flint13, July 19, 2016 - No reason given FW legion pods say the doors must open and stay open. Don't have my old or new book to see if the same applies to dread pods, but I guess if you glue them shut you could still technically fire since it's an open topped transport? Really dumb, lol. @Flint, I'm glad you got so much joy out of catching a mistake that was corrected 5 minutes later. As a bonus, you even got to latch onto it and ignore the core discussion. The main problem with the new pods is how they crap on Contemptors, who really didn't need it, and how you want cover ignoring weapons now to use them which really limits your options. Triple nerf seemed overboard. You jumped on what you thought was a mistake that you didn't stop to ponder out bc you dislike me and thought you'd win internet points. You got called on being rude, simple as. I don't care at this point. Your options are to drop whatever deal you have going or leave. Your choice. Lol, you have a very inflated opinion of your significance. We've all "cheated" in the sense that we get rules wrong. I'm sure you've not always played everything 100% by the book, but if it mends your broken heart, I'm very sorry for leveling such a savage slur in your direction. It was corrected minutes later as I realized my error and Slips pointed it out, yet you chose to harp on it hours later. But hey keep dragging that chip on your shoulder and dodging actual discussion with vapid chest thumping or whatever it is you think you're accomplishing here. Good day. Regarding charging something in a transport, that's even more bonkers than determining percentage of concealment. Maybe someone needs to talk to the crew at the next Open. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445830
Nusquam Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 No where does ti stop you from shooting it in consecutive turns. The pod comes down, doors open. You may stay inside 'and if this is the case', referring the 'case' to staying inside you may shoot it. This is a change in normal shooting, as you cant normally cant target passengers with shooting attacks. So they call it out that can shoot the dread in the pod. Then they clarify that even though you can shoot it, you can't assault it. That all makes sense. Follow the case logically, what would 'in this case' refer to? something said previously. What was said previously? That the dread does not have to leave. So in the case of the dread not leaving, and staying inside the pod, it may be targeted despite normal rules that would prevent it. What wouldnt make sense is that they would go out of their way to say you can shoot a dreadnought that disembarked the pod. Why wouldn't you be able to? If they just wanted the dread to be assault immune they would have just said that it cant be charged the turn it disembarks and not redundantly say you can shoot it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 The third bullet to the section is where it all comes together I think: "The rule lasts form the player turn in which the DDP landed until the controlling player's next player turn. After this point, both the Drop Pod and Dreadnought may be assaulted and shot at normally." Why would they include this, especially the assault part of this rule, if they weren't explicitly changing the way units could assault dreadnoughts? If we interpret it the way you are saying, then turn 1 you can shoot at the dreadnought inside and not assault it. The next turn, if it remains embarked, you can't shoot at it and can't assault it either as per the normal rules of shooting and assault. That makes no sense at all. So you can assault something in a transport? I don't even... That's even more of a pickle than trying to determine percentage of cover. When's the next open so some brother from across the pond can grill the FW crew for clarity? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 No kidding! Their long compound statements are always a... bundle of joy No where does ti stop you from shooting it in consecutive turns. The pod comes down, doors open. You may stay inside 'and if this is the case', referring the 'case' to staying inside you may shoot it. This is a change in normal shooting, as you cant normally cant target passengers with shooting attacks. So they call it out that can shoot the dread in the pod. Then they clarify that even though you can shoot it, you can't assault it. That all makes sense. Follow the case logically, what would 'in this case' refer to? something said previously. What was said previously? That the dread does not have to leave. So in the case of the dread not leaving, and staying inside the pod, it may be targeted despite normal rules that would prevent it. What wouldnt make sense is that they would go out of their way to say you can shoot a dreadnought that disembarked the pod. Why wouldn't you be able to? If they just wanted the dread to be assault immune they would have just said that it cant be charged the turn it disembarks and not redundantly say you can shoot it. 'In this case' quantifies the thing immediately before it, to me anyway- that a player wishes to deploy the dreadnought outside the pod. As for why you couldn't shoot at it in the next turn: if you choose to interpret it the way you are saying, then the only reason you can target a model inside its transport is through the Burning Retros special rule. Burning Retros goes away at the start of the next turn. Since you can't normally shoot at units embarked inside their transport, once this rule is gone, it means you can't target the dreadnought inside the pod. This makes no sense, while the other way around, it works just fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Not sure where you're getting the player wishes to deploy outside, its that "... the Dreadnought insides does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes.". It's quantifying that the dread is inside, specifically that the dread does not need to leave it. That means the 'case' is that the dread is inside. edit: clarification Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 so im confused , re reading it this is what me and my friend sort of felt it meant. [8:47:20 PM] Me: but you cant be shot in the pod [8:47:30 PM] Me: yer safe from da gunz [8:48:29 PM] Iron Warriors Traitor Scum: Sure, but you're also the size of the Pod's doors away from your desired destination. This is just an option that lets you cover a little more ground on arrival while still being safe from charges. [8:49:28 PM] Iron Warriors Traitor Scum: You can hide in the Pod and gain three ablative hull points or depart it on arrival while still keeping a Cover Save. Either way you can't be charged. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 Yep, that's the way I see it working as well. No matter what you can't get charged. Your choices come down to: 1- Get out of the pod and off the doors. Dread and its attacks aren't affected by shrouded. Dread cannot be assaulted. 2- Get out of the pod and stand on a door. Dread can't be assaulted. It and its attacks are affected by shrouded. 3- Remain in the pod. Dread can't be assaulted since it's in a transport. It and its attacks are affected by shrouded. Not sure where you're getting the player wishes to deploy outside, its that "... the Dreadnought insides does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes.". It's quantifying that the dread is inside, specifically that the dread does not need to leave it. That means the 'case' is that the dread is inside. edit: clarification Heh, yeah, it's worded so poorly that it's not a stretch for it to be taken either way. It's also why I think we jumped the gun on it. Unless you dig through the entire Burning Retros rule it's unclear which case they intended. If we interpret it the way you say, then we have two immediate issues. First, we have a rule that overwrites how the BRB treats units inside of transports. This is strange in itself, but we can suppose it's intentional since drop pods are special snowflakes. That leads us to our second problem. Burning Retros lasts for a single turn. So, this special exception to the rule exists for a single turn and then goes away. In practice, a dreadnought in a pod can be shot the turn it comes down, but afterwards if it remains inside the pod it cannot be targeted. This makes absolutely no sense and it's why I challenge this interpretation. If we interpret it the other way, then there's no BRB rules conflict and the last part of Burning Retros makes a whole lot of sense- the cloud is gone after a turn, so you can now assault the dreadnought if it was outside of the pod and shoot at both the dreadnought and pod without the effects of the shrouded special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4445905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I'm sorry, but there is no way you can assault INTO a transport Nusquam :P Bladewolf has it I think. Incidentally, does anyone have a digital edition they can copy and paste the entire passage from so we can all read it fully? But throwing my hat into the ring: "...the dreadnought does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case (though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks), it may not be charged while this rule is in effect." Sentence basically says, if you wish to and do get out of the pod you can be shot at but cannot be charged. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Rejoice. Looking over the rules the new interpretation appears to be correct :-D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Just to be clear, what does this mean in terms of shooting at the dread, if it stays INSIDE the pod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 If it's inside you can only target the transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 That's right. You hit the transport. But throwing my hat into the ring: "...the dreadnought does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case (though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks), it may not be charged while this rule is in effect." Sentence basically says, if you wish to and do get out of the pod you can be shot at but cannot be charged. Yup. That's what I'm talking about as well. The other way just doesn't make sense if you dig into it. Here's the exact language for those still waiting for their books: http://i.imgur.com/0yOnrE8.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 100% clear. Thanks for the screenshot, there is absolutely no confusion now! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 It's not very well written, and there's still a price hike but this does salvage the situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Considering the changes aren't as bad as we thought, the price hike is okay. It makes sense to give the enemy shrouded too I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 This is a boon for those cc temptors wanting to wreck face, an immunity to charging means the extra 12" potentially closing distance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Not sure if anyone else had noticed/mentioned this already but the Primaris-Lightning no longer has the Missile Barrage rule! I noticed this about a month ago in the Mechanicum Red Book and so I wondered if it would also be the case in the updated rules. But yeah, no more shooting 4 Kraken Penetrators... (Although I totally see why, that was probably a bit too powerful) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Well damn. I actually quite like that, makes it less of the be all and end all of AV. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Well damn. I actually quite like that, makes it less of the be all and end all of AV. Definitely! I haven't got to use one yet, but was looking into it in the old rules and the Kraken missiles were very powerful!! It's unsurprising they got a points increase. And using what is essentially 4 ranged Chainfists (with BS5 and Tank Hunters if you get the upgrades) would destroy most vehicles short of a super heavy (could probably do a knight too) in one turn - which is crazy!! Although to be fair a Spartan would have likely done its job by then taking reserves into account but still. Seems like a fair change as really, you only need one with good rolls to wreck a tank so dropping to two is still great. Just have to try harder to keep it alive for a second volley... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddarz Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Hey guys, Unless I am mistaken, "Missile Barrage" is a deprecated rule, since as of 7th edition, all flyers can fire up to 4 weapons while zooming by default.So the Lightning can still do it's thing. Just like the Fire Raptor and Storm Eagle can.Good thing too I think, it was already too expensive for a one-shot paper plane. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I did wonder why I couldn't find it in the rulebook........ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Cheers ddarz! I didn't know that. Never used flyers before, it was 30k that started to get me interested in them, so I'm not sure on the rules these. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddarz Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Happy to help :)I must admit, I really would like a universal do over of 40k/30k rules - and a move to digital living documents or somethingThe inconsistencies are driving me crazy! Speaking of fliers, be aware that 40k now has a new flyer dogfighting phase, with new rules and stats for all 40K flyers (but not FW ones yet...). So things are again uneven. Now a lot of people don't like the new phase for various reasons, but I kind of like anything that adds mechanical depth to the game to be honest.There is always the risk of bloat and slowdown though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323937-rules-changes-in-lacal/page/14/#findComment-4446096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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