okonomiyakimarine Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Beginner here. Finished painting my first squad and try to figure out where to go from here. I guess I just don't want to paint a force that is illegal/unplayable and probably fancy to actually field my army some day. I started out with BaC and bought 10 extra bodies and volkite culverines. With the new rules (marksmen) veteran tactical might be interesting and i'd love to add some volkite from the start, full HS later, then rather Ashen Circle than Gal Vorbak. It is still early in the Heresy for me additionally needed marines and transport could be bought. Ashen Circle will be bought at some point, but i question if it makes sense to add just a few early on? So i rather see them as a late addition after putting mainly veterans out first. what is of importance to me is to have an effective expansion, so no units that won't make sense after expanding further, also i am not to interested in refitting units/beefing stuff up and having to rework the models - except for a blob of marines that could be easily transformed to veterans later. so without further ado here are what I came up with (by the help of battlescribe): obsolete lists 1500 (1499) Chaplain goes with Volkites, because Vets occupy whole rhino (afaik). + HQ (275pts) + Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol] Consul [Chaplain] Legion Praetor [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, Grenade Harness] Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion] + Troops (994pts) + Legion Terminator Squad [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 2x Combi-Weapon, Heavy Flamer, 4x Legion Terminators, Lightning Claw, 2x Power Fist] Legion Land Raider Phobos [Hunter-killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Flamer, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Plasma Pistol] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Plasma Gun] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Power Weapon] + Heavy Support (230pts) + Legion Heavy Support Squad [4x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Culverin] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile] Legion Sergeant [Augury Scanner] 2000 (1999) Added 5 for a full HS volkite culverin squad. Decided to add a big blob footslogging tac marines to with the the chaplain, because there is no space for a second land raider yet. + HQ (320pts) + Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol] Consul [Chaplain] Legion Praetor [burning Lore, Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, Digital Lasers, Grenade Harness] Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion] + Troops (1274pts) + Legion Tactical Squad [17x Legion Tactical Space Marines] Legion Terminator Squad [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 2x Combi-Weapon, Heavy Flamer, 4x Legion Terminators, Lightning Claw, 2x Power Fist] Legion Land Raider Phobos [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile, Multi-melta] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Flamer, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Plasma Pistol] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Plasma Gun] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Power Weapon] + Heavy Support (405pts) + Legion Heavy Support Squad [Hardened Armour, 9x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Culverin] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile] Legion Sergeant [Augury Scanner] [/url] 2500 (2494) Additional Veteran Tac replaces marine blob, go in a land raider together with Chaplain and Apothecary; Contemptor with no extras added. + HQ (320pts) + Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol] Consul [Chaplain] Legion Praetor [burning Lore, Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, Digital Lasers, Grenade Harness] Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion] + Troops (1324pts) + Legion Terminator Squad [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 2x Combi-Weapon, Heavy Flamer, 4x Legion Terminators, Lightning Claw, 2x Power Fist] Legion Land Raider Phobos [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile, Multi-melta] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Combi-weapon, Power Fist] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Plasma Gun] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Power Weapon] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Flamer, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Plasma Pistol] + Elites (220pts) + Apothecarion Detachment [Legion Apothecary] Contemptor Dreadnought Talon [Legion Contemptor Dreadnought] + Heavy Support (630pts) + Legion Heavy Support Squad [Hardened Armour, 9x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Culverin] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile] Legion Sergeant [Augury Scanner] Legion Land Raider Battle Squadron [Legion Land Raider Phobos] 3000 (2994) Additional Apothecary goes with Volkites (total now 3 land raiders) - lol what, a culverin HS in a phobos you might say? well, what do i know.... Second Contemptor, one all-Kheres and one with auto cannons. + HQ (320pts) + Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol] Consul [Chaplain] Legion Praetor [burning Lore, Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, Digital Lasers, Grenade Harness] Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion] + Troops (1324pts) + Legion Terminator Squad [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 2x Combi-Weapon, Heavy Flamer, 4x Legion Terminators, Lightning Claw, 2x Power Fist] Legion Land Raider Phobos [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile, Multi-melta] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Combi-weapon, Power Fist] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Plasma Gun] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Power Weapon] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Flamer, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Plasma Pistol] + Elites (485pts) + Apothecarion Detachment [Legion Apothecary, Legion Apothecary] Contemptor Dreadnought Talon Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Twin-linked Autocannon, Twin-linked Autocannon] Contemptor Dreadnought Talon Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon, Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon] + Heavy Support (865pts) + Legion Heavy Support Squad [Hardened Armour, 9x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Culverin] Legion Sergeant [Augury Scanner] Legion Land Raider Battle Squadron Legion Land Raider Phobos [Combi-Weapon, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile] Legion Land Raider Phobos [Combi-Weapon, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile] 3500 (3499) Finally added Ashen Circle (7+1, poweraxe for 3) and a Deredeo with Aiolos to eat up the rest of the points. + HQ (320pts) + Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol] Consul [Chaplain] Legion Praetor [burning Lore, Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, Digital Lasers, Grenade Harness] Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion] + Troops (1324pts) + Legion Terminator Squad [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 2x Combi-Weapon, Heavy Flamer, 4x Legion Terminators, Lightning Claw, 2x Power Fist] Legion Land Raider Phobos [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile, Multi-melta] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Combi-weapon, Power Fist] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Plasma Gun] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Power Weapon] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Flamer, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web] Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin-Linked Bolter] Legion Veteran Sergeant [Plasma Pistol] + Elites (485pts) + Apothecarion Detachment [Legion Apothecary, Legion Apothecary] Contemptor Dreadnought Talon Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon, Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon] Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Twin-linked Autocannon, Twin-linked Autocannon] + Fast Attack (285pts) + The Ashen Circle [7x Incendiary, 3x Power Axe] Iconoclast [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, 2x Phosphex Bombs] + Heavy Support (1085pts) + Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought [Aiolos Missile Launcher] Legion Heavy Support Squad [Hardened Armour, 9x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Culverin] Legion Sergeant [Augury Scanner] Legion Land Raider Battle Squadron Legion Land Raider Phobos [Combi-Weapon, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile] Legion Land Raider Phobos [Combi-Weapon, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile] i guess all is legal. for crusade i guess it is fluffy enough to have mass-vet, but how playable does it look? any ideas how to add the ashen circle 'earlier'? Which list is the most effective or interesting for each respective point level? did i miss stuff? thanks for any suggestions! please correct me if i do stupid stuff in the lists, i am a noob. i realize that the various load outs might not be ideal for the veterans (flamer, plasma), but their are cool. And big thx to everyone who contributed to the updated heresy data sheets for battle scribe. All lists were created with BattleScribe (edited out detailed points) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okonomiyakimarine Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 probably a more realistic approach for the start: sticking to 1500. With two in HQ for Word Bearers i find it difficult to come of with more bodies while keeping them alive and/or powerful and/or mobile. Pride of the legion as a RoW. Around the core of 5x Termi and 10x Veteran there are some options for extra Veterans, Apothecary, HS with Volkite, Transport, Deredeo or Ashen Circle...  list is based on a false assumption regarding land raider capacity (10, not 12)   Word Bearers 1500 (1499pts) - Alternative I 5xTermi with Praetor in a Phobos, 2x 10xVeterans in Rhino, 5xVolkite Culverin with Chaplain in a Rhino. HS probably little point-efficient and Chaplain probably a waste here. where else to put the poor guy? But then again, everyone is in a rhino at the start... HQ (282pts) Chaplain with Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol Praetor in Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Chainfist, Combi-Weapon, Grenade Harness  Troops (987pts) Terminator Squad with 1x Chainfist, 1x Heavy Flamer, 1x Lightning Claw, 2x Power Fist / Sergeant with Combi-Flamer / in a Phobos with Hunter-killer Missile and Twin-Linked Bolter Veteran Tactical Squad with 1 xFlamer, 1x Missile Launcher (SW), Melta Bombs / Sergeant with Plasma Pistol / in a vanilla Rhino / Outflank & Sniper Veteran Tactical Squad with 1x Plasma, 1x Heavy Bolter (SW), Melta Bombs / Sergeant with a Power Weapon / in a vanilla Rhino / Outflank & Sniper  Heavy Support (230pts) Heavy Support Squad, 4x Legion Volkite Culverin / Sergeant with additional Augury / in a Rhino with Hunter-Killer Missile  Word Bearers 1500 (1499pts) - Alternative II 5x Termi with Praetor in Phobos, 10x Veteran Squad with Chaplain in Phobos, 7x Ashen Circle with Phosphex Ashen Circle rule of cool jump around and kill what they can, two powerful squad in phobos as the actual powers here. but will they stay alive long enough? HQ (292pts) Praetor in Terminator Armour with Chainfist, Combi-Flamer, Digital Lasers, Grenade Harness Chaplain with Artificer Armour, Plasma Pistol   Troops (467pts) Terminator Squad with 1xChainfist, 1xHeavy Flamer, 1xLightning Claw, 1xPower Fist, 1xThunderhammer / Sergeant with Combi-Flamer and Power Fist Veteran Tactical Squad with 1xFlamer, 1x Heavy Bolter (SW), Melta Bombs / Sergeant with Artificer Armour and Plasma Pistol / Outflank & Sniper  Fast Attack (240pts) The Ashen Circle, 6x Incendiary / Iconoclast with Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs and 1x Phosphex Bombs  Heavy Support (500pts) 2x Phobos with Combi-Flamer, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile  Word Bearers 1500 (1499pts) - Alternative III 5xTermi with Praetor in a Phobos, 10xVeterans with Chaplain and Apothecary in Phobos, 1x Deredeo pretty much the same as alternative II, but deredeo and apothecary replace the ashen circle. highest efficiency, but boring? HQ (292pts) Chaplain with Artificer Armour and Plasma Pistol Praetor with Chainfist, Combi-Flamer, Digital Lasers, Grenade Harness  Troops (467pts) Terminator Squad with 1xChainfist, 1xHeavy Flamer, 1xLightning Claw, 1xPower Fist, 1xThunderhammer / Sergeant with Combi-Flamer and Powerfist Veteran Tactical Squad with 1xFlamer, 1xHeavy Bolter (SW), Melta Bombs / Sergeant with Artificer Armour and Plasma Pistol  Elites (55pts) Legion Apothecary with Artificer Armour  Heavy Support (685pts) 1x vanilla Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought 2x Phobos with Combi-?, Extra Armour, Hunter-killer Missile  C&C welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Land Raider Phobos has transport capacity of 10, so you can't embark your praetor with terminators (unless they are 4-man command squad). BTW - I would swap the praetor with Delegatus in lower points games - saves a lot of points for other units and Chosen Duty is a much better ROW. Â Hope that helps :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okonomiyakimarine Posted July 26, 2016 Author Share Posted July 26, 2016 argh... so everything got worse from 30k to 40k except the land raider design, which increased in capacity? I'll do that lists new from zero i guess.  and the delegatus ROW - ha, thanks for pointing that out! some research in the forums here gave me all the additional info i believe to need. cheers!    so, probably like this?  Crusade Word Bearers 1500 CHOSEN DUTY  HQ (675pts)  (1) Chaplain [Artificer Armour, Plasma Pistol] > with the HS  (1+4) Delegatus [burning Lore, Cataphractii, Combi-bolter and mastercrafted Chainfist] Legion Terminator Command Squad [Cataphractii, 1x Heavy Flamer, 1x Lightning Claw, 1x Power Fist, 1x Standard] > in a Phobos  Troops (570pts) (9+1) Veteran Tactical Squad  [2x Flamer, Marksmen, Melta Bombs, Sergeant with Plasma Pistol] > in a  Rhino  (9+1)Veteran Tactical Squad [2x Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web, Machine Killers, Melta Bombs, Sergeant with Power Fist and Combi ] > in a Rhino  Heavy Support (255pts)  (4+1) Volkite Culverine Squad [Hardened Armour, Sergeant with additional Augury Scanner] > in a Rhino [Hunter-Killer Missile]   but seriously, are WBs really so dependent on transports, or just run up the field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I always try to take at least one Transport with Assault Vehicle Rule to fit my HQs and a counter assault unit (command squad or veterans with power weapons). The alternative is to give them Jump packs/ bikes and put them into assault squads/ bikers. I personally find it very difficult to fit terminators + terminator character in small games as you really need a Spartan or Kharybdis for them. If you want to take Terminators without character then Anvillus dreadclaw or Land Raider is enough. I try to put both characters in one unit as they aren't very killy by themselves, and WB don't have any particular rules to help them win combats. Gal Vorbak are cool and all, but they lose horribly with equal points pts of terminators and are also bulky so the transport problem remains... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okonomiyakimarine Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 @Dhar'Neth: Thanks for confirmation on the Phobos with the Command Squad in Cataphactii armor. Regarding your suggestion of a termi squad without any characters I'd like to ask you where else to put the praetor. The Characters don't make much sense with the veterans (rhino transport). I think the lists is at least playable as is.  yet thanks for you now bringing up 'no terminators in small games'. Thinking about the jump packs and the hint at more specific WB characters. So I consider at Zardu Layak, Ashen Circle, regular troops, volkite HS, apothecary. Now that apothecary can take jump packs, the Ashen Circle might be able to survive longer than seen so far. Is there any rule that says I cannot put Zardu, 15 tacs with extra ccw and an apothecary in a spartan?  Crusade Word Bearers 1500 REIGN OF FIRE/ZARDU LAYAK  HQ (285pts)  Zardu Layak  [Warlord] Chaplain  [Artificer Armour, Plasma]  Troops (550pts)  15x Legion Tactical Squad [Dark Channelling, additional CCW, 1x power weapon] 10x The Ashen Circle (310pts) [ Iconoclast with Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, 2x Phosphex Bombs]  Elites (105pts)  2x Apothecary [1x Jump Pack]  Heavy Support (560pts)  5x Volkite [Hardened Armour, Sergeant with Augury Scanner, in a Rhino] Spartan Assault Tank [Dozer Blade, Twin-linked Heavy Flamer]  thanks for comments  well that dozer blade is bs, so 5pts left :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Honestly, I wouldn't play a praetor without Assault transport and retinue. You could use terminator armour-equipped charcter as Siege Breaker to give a Heavy Support Squad Tank Hunter or even just a plain Centurion - for less than 90 points you can get power weapon and 2+/4++. HS squads are often charged and such character could protect the unit. It won't be moving or using transport anyway. Â The second list seems ok. :) however You could end without any scoring units if you roll well (or bad ;P) I would also swap Volkites on HS for anti-tank weapons as you don't lack anti-infantry weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okonomiyakimarine Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 The second list seems ok. however You could end without any scoring units if you roll well (or bad ;P) I would also swap Volkites on HS for anti-tank weapons as you don't lack anti-infantry weapons. true, maybe too few scoring units. i forgot ashen circle is forced to pay for dark channeling when zardu kayak makes them troops by reign of fire rule... Honestly, I wouldn't play a praetor without Assault transport and retinue. You could use terminator armour-equipped charcter as Siege Breaker to give a Heavy Support Squad Tank Hunter or even just a plain Centurion - for less than 90 points you can get power weapon and 2+/4++. HS squads are often charged and such character could protect the unit. It won't be moving or using transport anyway. are you positive that while keeping a spartan in for the tactical with ccw, apothecary and zardu I should add a centurion to tank for the HS squad? even though the missile launchers are a bit cheaper than the volkite culverins, i do not see where the points should come from. bottom line is less bodies over all really, isn't it? what about the other way around: less vehicles in general and get more bodies in the field. run zardu, 15 tactical marines and an apothecary down the field, use 5 ashen circle and an apothecary with a jump pack to harass smaller units and have a full veteran and a full heavy support squad with missile launcher both in rhinos to get stuff done. so it is only the ashen circle that is not cos effective because not maxed out. sure when i run into something fully mechanized and armored up, that really sucks, but otherwise it is 40 marines + apothecaries or run zardu with blade slaves, no tactical marines, but two ashen circle squads at 7 each with melta bombs and phospex but no PW and an apothecary with jump pack each, a full squad of veterans in a rhino and a half squad of heavy support marines with missile launchers. ... thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 The problem with Zardu is that the last place he wants to be is in combat. I think option 1 is far better. 5 Ashen Circle are easier to hide behind vehicle and will do just ass fine. It's easier to lay templates in smaller squad, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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