Are old models still viable?

[cypherthefallenangel]

I recently got an old 2ed ravenwing landspeeder that I'm going to convert into Samuel in sableclaw. My dilemma is that the old mk2 model is noticeably smaller than a mk3 speeder. Would it be considered "modeling for advantage" to bring this to a game?(friendly or comp) or does rule of cool win out? They both were made by GW after all. Here is a pic to show size difference.

This is a wip. Don't judge. ;)

http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_7693/gallery_65696_7693_766658.jpg

[DavianCool]

I think it would be fine with infantry models as long as the base was the same size as the latest one but with flyers and skimmers, vehicles etc you should ask your opponent.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Totally legit :tu:

 

Just my 2 cents though ;)

[Major_Gilbear]

I say it should be fine - they are both valid and official GW models for Land Speeders afterall! In my eyes it's no different than having old Terminator models on 25mm bases.

 

Besides, "rule of cool" is the best 40k rule there is IMO, so I doubt you'd find opponents who are unwilling to let you use it. :)

[cypherthefallenangel]

Thanks for the quick replies brothers. I'm thinking that for most of my opponents it will probably be fine and I suppose it can't hurt to ask my opponents beforehand. My local TO said bring a back up model just in case someone does have a problem with the size.

I will try to beef up the base to a simular hight which should make it a little better but there isn't much I can do about the length and width.

Edited for stupid autocorrect.

[FlamingDeth]

Apply the dreadsock liberally to those that complain about it.

[Canadian_F_H]

According to GW any model they have ever made is still legal so long as there is a corresponding datasheet for it.

 

I've certainly never ever heard of them calling a out any mini they have ever produced and said, "nope you can't use these"

 

Even the 2 armies they scrapped from Aos still have army lists that are legal and could be used in other armies as counts as.

[ValourousHeart]

Those old speeders can't be considered "modeling for advantage" because they are built the way the model was intended to be built.

 

For a full course on "modeling for advantage" see your local Ork player and any of their scratch built vehicles.

[Major_Gilbear]

My local TO said bring a back up model just in case someone does have a problem with the size.

No offence to your local TO, but this sort of submission to awkward (often WAAC) players is really unacceptable IMO.

It is an official model of a Land Speeder, made by GW. You are using it as a Land Speeder in a GW army list (regardless of whether there is a character mounted aboard it). How could that not be legal?

If you wanted, you could use a Rogue Trader Land Speeder - they are even smaller and folks used to mount them on 40mm square bases. And again, a totally legal and legitimate model, being used to represent the exact thing it is.

Any TO who comes across a player who has a problem with older GW models being a bit smaller than the new ones needs to take said player aside for a gentle chat about how 40k=/=chess, and point out to him that if you use TLOS rules you are always going to have to be somewhat gracious towards your opponent. Afterall, 40k is a fun game with cool models, not a serious combat simulation with watertight rules and razor-balancing.

Anyway, sorry for the slight rant there - players with this sort of "competitive" attitude is a pet peeve of mine!

[twopounder]

Some tournament rules state that fielding older models for advantage is not allowed. A couple models are fine, but I think they're trying to avoid an entire army that's half the size it should be.

My local TO said bring a back up model just in case someone does have a problem with the size.

No offence to your local TO, but this sort of submission to awkward (often WAAC) players is really unacceptable IMO.

It is an official model of a Land Speeder, made by GW. You are using it as a Land Speeder in a GW army list (regardless of whether there is a character mounted aboard it). How could that not be legal?

If you wanted, you could use a Rogue Trader Land Speeder - they are even smaller and folks used to mount them on 40mm square bases. And again, a totally legal and legitimate model, being used to represent the exact thing it is.

Any TO who comes across a player who has a problem with older GW models being a bit smaller than the new ones needs to take said player aside for a gentle chat about how 40k=/=chess, and point out to him that if you use TLOS rules you are always going to have to be somewhat gracious towards your opponent. Afterall, 40k is a fun game with cool models, not a serious combat simulation with watertight rules and razor-balancing.

Anyway, sorry for the slight rant there - players with this sort of "competitive" attitude is a pet peeve of mine!

Tournaments are competitive. Not many people run a "fun" list and rules are fully enforced. You have to when people buy in with real money and there are prizes up for grabs.

[Major_Gilbear]

Tournaments are competitive. Not many people run a "fun" list and rules are fully enforced. You have to when people buy in with real money and there are prizes up for grabs.

That's really not what I was saying at all.

"Fun" =/= a silly underpowered list. It can still also mean playing a game with a respectful and gracious opponent - even if you are both pushing tough lists and playing as tightly as you can to woolly/subjective rules.

Using old GW models at a GW-only model event is not exactly modelling for advantage either; to claim this is the case would be the most ridiculous I have ever heard of in all my 25+ years of wargaming.

And money/prizes? All the other folks at the tourney also paid, and also built an army, and will still manage to behave like courteous people. Why should the risk of the possibility of a douchbag spoil it for everyone else who's there, even if that awkward person never even exists? If such a person does indeed appear and make a fuss, the solution is simple; you refund their ticket and show them the door.

(Not to pick on you twopounder, I'm sure you're just stating facts and/or playing Devil's Advocate! )

The thing is, I get really tired of seeing everyone pandering to the mythical difficult person who might possibly maybe occasionally turn up to a game at an organised event or hobby store somewhere and have some slim excuse to have a tantrum if things don't go their way. Being competitive is fine; being a douchebag is not. It's not difficult to understand really, and yet I keep seeing excuses being made for it... Well I'm sorry, but it's poor, and really should be inexcusable behaviour that other people needn't suffer.

[Brother dean]

So proxying a DKoK army for Cadians is illegal at these hypothetical tournys?  They are both current models for Guardsmen but the DKoK are significantly smaller (cause they are to the correct scale and plastic Cadians are not)

 

Remind me to never play at these tourneys...  It is a GW official model.  Its not even smaller than the plastic.  Mine are even on the larger flying base (cause the metal speeders dont balance at all....)

[twopounder]

Using old GW models at a GW-only model event is not exactly modelling for advantage either; to claim this is the case would be the most ridiculous I have ever heard of in all my 25+ years of wargaming.

And money/prizes? All the other folks at the tourney also paid, and also built an army, and will still manage to behave like courteous people. Why should the risk of the possibility of a douchbag spoil it for everyone else who's there, even if that awkward person never even exists? If such a person does indeed appear and make a fuss, the solution is simple; you refund their ticket and show them the door.

(Not to pick on you twopounder, I'm sure you're just stating facts and/or playing Devil's Advocate! )

Afraid these are facts. Many TO rules have explicitly stated restrictions on older models to prevent unfair advantage. The point is exactly what you said - everyone paid in, so if one person is running a list with a modelling advantage, they are the only ones benefiting from it. If everyone using 3rd+ models, they're all the same size and equal outside of the list.

[Bryan Blaire]

Cypher, unless the tourney is your only option for playing that day, IMO, you should not bother with it if the TO said something like that to you. There are significantly more things wrong with 40K than someone using a 2nd Edition Landspeeder. Withdraw and get your money back (or don't pay in the first place), and if possible, go in to the store where the tourney is running and play a game for fun with someone using your awesome Landspeeder and then ask at the end very loudly if your use of it ruined the game or drastically altered your opponent's game play.

[Chaplain Killmer]

Imo the landspeeder isn't really a problem as the flight base is the same size and average terrain isn't protecting it more from sight as it would be the case with the new model. If your opponent is really saying anything (which is not the case) you still can offer to put it on something that is lifting it a bit. I have 9 of the old landspeeders myself and i never encountered any problems with fielding them. Same goes for my RT days dreads, rhinos and landraiders. Most of the time the is more curious where you get those minding the size or the  models.

[Brother dean]

When the '06 codex came out I got back into playing.  Played a game with another longbeard and even then the bystanders were "Woah?  What are those?" And my fellow longbeard said: "Those are the old speeders.  Dean is a walking museum of old GW models.."  (I'm not but that was nice of him to say...)

[Xenith]

When the TO said to bring another model in case someone objects, he means an old metal dread to dreadsock that person with.

[NTaW]

Rule of thumb:

 

If you have to ask it's likely fine in casual games but will get your head spinning in a tournament situation.

[Servant of Dante]

When the TO said to bring another model in case someone objects, he means an old metal dread to dreadsock that person with.

Or you could put a Penitent Engine in the sock, and yell "Repent" repeatedly as you . . . enlighten them.

My personal favorite is when someone mentioned that they had a metal Carnifex attached to a chain, which they called a Carniflail.

Disclaimer: I do not personally condone the hitting of anyone with anything, especially large hunks of metal, stuffed into socks or otherwise.

[Bryan Blaire]

Rule of thumb:

If you have to ask it's likely fine in casual games but will get your head spinning in a tournament situation.

Disagree 100%, a better rule of thumb is that you should stop playing in tournaments where worrying about that is even an issue. Good tournaments/TOs have more important things to worry about.

 

I only wish that I still had my two Landspeeders from 2nd Edition, as well as my original Furioso Dread (that was coincidently stolen at a tournament).

[Gabus]

Not a viable model?

 

My Michigan GT army would like a word.

 

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c89/Gabus447/Dark%20Angels/10676233_1060871173957895_960120497570768834_n_zpskaezfey2.jpg

[Major_Gilbear]

My Michigan GT army [...]

Looks fantastic - I'd "like" it more than once if I could!

[Brother dean]

Beats mine.  I only have 5...  And one of them is Sableclaw.

[Servant of Dante]

Just show the TO the above picture and say, "The Emperor demands repentance!"

 

It won't get you anywhere, but the Emperor's work is it's own reward.

[Gillyfish]

I have a fair few old models, including metal terminators, RT era plastics and the old metal Landspeeder from 2nd ed too. I don't tend to use the latter, since I painted it rather garishly back then, but I will get round to re-painting one day and would probably use it again quite happily. The same will go for my 2nd ed predator with the metal turrets. The only tournament I have ever played in was for Frostgrave last year and the only reason I did that was because it was intentionally fun and relaxed. I would absolutely hate it if we were required to rebase all my marines to the newer slightly larger bases they have now.