What if: Unification Wars game made by FW?

[Hrolf the Cunning]

 

 

I think that it could be very feasible, the miniatures themselves could be designed for unification war purposes but could easily used for the other elements of the crusade hosts as well, even into 40k to some degree. I think anything that can increase the range of figures available in a financially viable manner would be fantastic.

Custodes maybe?

We know they took part in the fighting during the Unifacation and the Crusade, but have they ever fought off of Terra in the 41m?

For sure, although to my knowledge the custodes have been more or less sulking in recent times.

 

I was also talking about representing some of the varied ways in which humanity goes to war. I think it could be a great opportunity to create some general kits that could be used for warlord forces during unification, various imperial army units during the crusade and even 40k imperial guard. If they had 3-4 variants eg. Feral, high tech, feudal that were compatible and interchangeable it would sell like crazy and allow us hobbyists to bring new depth to the game.

[Kol Saresk]

I think they did that in Retribution with the Militias. Could be mistaken though.

[Calas Typhon]

Custodes are pretty rare in acknowledgement in the 40K Universe, I suppose they are just rubbing oils into their skin and sitting on an eternal watch for the Emperor in the depths of the palace. 

[Hrolf the Cunning]

I think they did that in Retribution with the Militias. Could be mistaken though.

They sure did, I was picturing mini lines to facilitate that. Wishful thinking and optimistic I know. 

[Doctor Perils]

As a boxed game, I don't know how well a tactical/skirmish game would work for the UW. A Strategic Game (Risk-scale) could be rather fun though, and it would allow GW to give some confirmation of what Terra looks like at the dawn of the Imperium of Man.

[disease]

With 30k militia, its more than easy to make thunderwarrior statlines by giving ogryns power armour and assault heavy bolters.

 

Also, the picture shown clearly has Autillon Skorr's head with a plume :)

[Ishagu]

I would love for GW to expand the model and rules range. Unification era Thunder Warriors would be so much fun but there really is no way to justify them in 30k or 40k games in terms of fluff.

 

I imagine the Custodes will be similar but their inclusion would be easier. I hope they are very powerful but fairly priced.

[Brother Aiwass]

With 30k militia, its more than easy to make thunderwarrior statlines by giving ogryns power armour and assault heavy bolters.

Also, the picture shown clearly has Autillon Skorr's head with a plume

I don't understand why you (generic you, apply to everyone that thinks alike) want to give thunder warriors ogryn stats. AFAIK they were proto-space marine with proto-power armour, nothing more. So at best they'll have SM profile, not Ogryn profile. Even if you want to bump them beyond current astartes (from 30k onwards) you should better suit them giving them Chymeriae (+1 S & T), paria bolter and armour and taking a beer. Ogryn rules are not bad per se, unless you realize that they're no more than proto SM. 3W is way too much for dudes who were cannon fodder. Unless I'm missing something, that is.

[Ishagu]

They were stronger according to the fluff, but they burnt out very quickly.

 

I'd probably write their stats as ws3, bs3, str5, t5, w2, i4, ld8, 3+

[Soldier of Dorn]

With 30k militia, its more than easy to make thunderwarrior statlines by giving ogryns power armour and assault heavy bolters.

Also, the picture shown clearly has Autillon Skorr's head with a plume

I don't understand why you (generic you, apply to everyone that thinks alike) want to give thunder warriors ogryn stats. AFAIK they were proto-space marine with proto-power armour, nothing more. So at best they'll have SM profile, not Ogryn profile. Even if you want to bump them beyond current astartes (from 30k onwards) you should better suit them giving them Chymeriae (+1 S & T), paria bolter and armour and taking a beer. Ogryn rules are not bad per se, unless you realize that they're no more than proto SM. 3W is way too much for dudes who were cannon fodder. Unless I'm missing something, that is.

The Tontrua Milites weren't just cannon fodder, though. In terms of raw physical strength, they were leagues above the Legiones Astartes that followed, so much so that it's described in multiple sources of taking squad-sized groups of Astartes to mutually assure destruction with a single Thunder Warrior (notably in Betrayal, I think, in one of the World Eaters background things and to a somewhat lesser extent in the Outcast Dead.) They did die quickly, it's true, but you have to remember that these generally weren't combat fatalities but instead attributed to things like genetic disorders and cancers, a consequence of the massive modifications that the Emperor and his gene-wrights inflicted upon them. They were designed for a singular purpose: to unify Earth under the Emperor's banner, as quickly as possible, and nothing else besides. I always think that calling them "proto-Astartes" is something of a misnomer, because the way they're described in fluff, in terms of raw physical power, is closer to the level of a Custodes or the like rather than a Space Marine, but imperfect.

I'm rambling a bit, but the gist is: to my knowledge, they're supposed to be ridiculously tough and ridiculously deadly beyond the level of a Space Marine. Make of that what you will.

[Kol Saresk]

They were stronger according to the fluff, but they burnt out very quickly.

 

I'd probably write their stats as ws3, bs3, str5, t5, w2, i4, ld8, 3+

They're stronger according to interpretations of the fluff. Nothing explicit has been directly said in a definitive, unbiased point of view.

[Soldier of Dorn]

 

They were stronger according to the fluff, but they burnt out very quickly.

 

I'd probably write their stats as ws3, bs3, str5, t5, w2, i4, ld8, 3+

They're stronger according to interpretations of the fluff. Nothing explicit has been directly said in a definitive, unbiased point of view.

Nothing explicit is *ever* said in a definitive, unbiased point of view. Haven't you heard? This is Warhammer, the source of more bias and propaganda that the late great Soviet Union's media. :P

[Corswain]

Two Thunder Warriors take on six Astartes in the Outcast Dead and come off pretty well. That's fairly official.

It also gives you enough of a precedent to justify other rogue Thunder Warriors in 30K or the Heresy. I agree, using them in a 40K setting might be a bit of a stretch but we haven't seen the end of them in the Heresy so who knows what might happen.

[Kol Saresk]

Two Thunder Warriors take on six Astartes in the Outcast Dead and come off pretty well. That's fairly official.

It also gives you enough of a precedent to justify other rogue Thunder Warriors in 30K or the Heresy. I agree, using them in a 40K setting might be a bit of a stretch but we haven't seen the end of them in the Heresy so who knows what might happen.

And in the same book an unarmored World Eater punched through a Custodes' chest plate and then ripped out his spine, making the World Eaters the physically strongest Legion ever as they're stronger than the Custodes. According to that line of thinking.

 

Which would be heavily ironic since the impression(another word might be interpretation) we are given in The First Heretic is that Custodes are individually better killers than Astartes. Not because of a strength differential, but because Astartes are trained to work as units whereas Custodes are trained to work as individuals. It creates a differential based on the setting you find them in.

 

And I imagine it is a differential easily found when comparing Thunder Warriors and Astartes because Thunder Warriors were trained to take down some of the stringest and largest genetically engineered abominations known to mankind. Which would make an Astartes a walk through the park by comparison. Not because the Thunder Warrior is stronger, but because he has fought stronger opponents and lived to tell of it.

 

Ergo, nondefinitive and biased. It sets no precedent for how strong they are or could be. Even the blip in Betrayal about a K/D ratio of 4 to 1 can easily be justified as experience and tactics versus lack thereof as it wouldn't be the first time a numerically inferior force took a decent chunk out of the larger force that killed it.

 

So the only baseline we really get for comparison is that the Thunder Warriors were proto-Astartes and that somewhere along the line, the Emperor decided He could do better and He dumped them after He did.

 

Could there be Thunder Warriors in 40K? Maybe. Could there be Thunder Warriors in 30K? There already are and we keep getting more examples every time we turn around. But their existence is not the issue I am pointing out.

 

I am pointing out that we have nothing that definitively says "Thunder Warriors>Astartes" and therefore, there is no justification right now to think Thuder Warriors deserve better stats as a result. It could work out that way, but that will be either becuase Forgeworld decided to, or there is some one-liner that says so buried in the GW archives.

[b1soul]

I would love a unification wars line

[Corswain]

 

Two Thunder Warriors take on six Astartes in the Outcast Dead and come off pretty well. That's fairly official.

It also gives you enough of a precedent to justify other rogue Thunder Warriors in 30K or the Heresy. I agree, using them in a 40K setting might be a bit of a stretch but we haven't seen the end of them in the Heresy so who knows what might happen.

And in the same book an unarmored World Eater punched through a Custodes' chest plate and then ripped out his spine, making the World Eaters the physically strongest Legion ever as they're stronger than the Custodes. According to that line of thinking.

Which would be heavily ironic since the impression(another word might be interpretation) we are given in The First Heretic is that Custodes are individually better killers than Astartes. Not because of a strength differential, but because Astartes are trained to work as units whereas Custodes are trained to work as individuals. It creates a differential based on the setting you find them in.

And I imagine it is a differential easily found when comparing Thunder Warriors and Astartes because Thunder Warriors were trained to take down some of the stringest and largest genetically engineered abominations known to mankind. Which would make an Astartes a walk through the park by comparison. Not because the Thunder Warrior is stronger, but because he has fought stronger opponents and lived to tell of it.

Ergo, nondefinitive and biased. It sets no precedent for how strong they are or could be. Even the blip in Betrayal about a K/D ratio of 4 to 1 can easily be justified as experience and tactics versus lack thereof as it wouldn't be the first time a numerically inferior force took a decent chunk out of the larger force that killed it.

So the only baseline we really get for comparison is that the Thunder Warriors were proto-Astartes and that somewhere along the line, the Emperor decided He could do better and He dumped them after He did.

Could there be Thunder Warriors in 40K? Maybe. Could there be Thunder Warriors in 30K? There already are and we keep getting more examples every time we turn around. But their existence is not the issue I am pointing out.

I am pointing out that we have nothing that definitively says "Thunder Warriors>Astartes" and therefore, there is no justification right now to think Thuder Warriors deserve better stats as a result. It could work out that way, but that will be either becuase Forgeworld decided to, or there is some one-liner that says so buried in the GW archives.

I see what your saying.

 

In terms of game-stats I think it would be better if they were significantly different to Astartes. Otherwise they're just another Legion.

The upcoming Custodes might actually be a good base line for Thunder Warriors. We'll see!

[Kol Saresk]

I agree they should feel different, but personally I'm just not sure statlines are the answer. Although if we did alter the stats according to current popular conception(which Forgeworld is very likely to at least parallel), I'd almost say higher S and WS traded off by lower T, to represent their greater experience over the Astartes and possibly greater strength, but to also represent that they were genetically inferior to the Astartes as well. Whether it be from built-in deficiencies, mental instability, or even just not being the absolute pinnacle the Emperor strived for in terms of genetic manipulation.

[Brother Aiwass]

Thanks everyone for sharing your point of view and TW backgrounds. For canon, however, my take on in is that if is not in a codex (including FW books) it doesn't matter to me. BL may be official, but there are a lot of writers and books and everyone puts their view in there who may or may not contradict each other/established fluff. In short, I disregard BL as a reliable source of background; the books are novels and their purpose is entertainment, not establishing facts. Again I might be wrong, but that's how I take it

As for 2 TW taking 6 SM, let consider close combat and only standard equipment, vanilla marines VS chymeriae marauders. Take in account that CM have chainaxes and bolt pistol, so if my memory serves me well (something doubtful) that's 8 S6 attacks.

1st round SM 0.333 wounds

1st round CM 1.111 wounds

Looks like they can do it pretty good :)

I'm not saying however, that this is in any way the correct thing and that everyone must agree. Just saying that TW can be currently done with the current rules and proper modeling.

Sorry if I got a bit off topic, but thought that was an interesting debate.

[Corswain]

What I'd really like to see in a UW box game is an evolving statline that shows their degeneration. Later in the "campaign" they become more unstable. Kinda hard to represent in 30K or 40k though.

[Vesper]

And in the same book an unarmored World Eater punched through a Custodes' chest plate and then ripped out his spine, making the World Eaters the physically strongest Legion ever as they're stronger than the Custodes. According to that line of thinking.

He was angry. So it's fine.

[RedwaKe]

I don't think they should be str 5 and T 5. I don't even think custodes deserve that. +1 strenght is huge in this game; at 3 you have the average human strenght and at 4 a power armoured space marine who can throw a car and tear open a tank hatch. They sure are stronger and tougher but not enough to justify an increase in stat imho.

 

I'd go for something like: Ws:3 bs:3 s:4 t:4 w:1 i:3 a:2 ld:8 svg:4+

usr: rage, furious charge and fnp 6+

[b1soul]

The Cerberus insurrection has multiple WE bodies around each TW body

 

That said, TW survivors could all be elite

[Silent Observant]

I think the only answer to this is to just bring this to forgeworld's attention that we want this, BL may already be planning a series, but reports from the first expedition say that Unification wars is "something that Forge World Probably wouldn't cover" so I think if we want to see this game after the horus heresy as well as the books made by FW that i'm partial to, we need to create a demand for the game! 

[Doctor Perils]

I think the only answer to this is to just bring this to forgeworld's attention that we want this, BL may already be planning a series, but reports from the first expedition say that Unification wars is "something that Forge World Probably wouldn't cover" so I think if we want to see this game after the horus heresy as well as the books made by FW that i'm partial to, we need to create a demand for the game! 

Whereas the Horus Heresy rapidly became a pivotal and defining moment of the setting as we know it in 40k, the unification wars are pretty much alien compared to the original setting (which is ironic, as it has a distinct lack of aliens): I don't know quite how much demand there could really be for a full blown range like HH. Limiting it in the first place to a board game would probably be more feasible, at least in the beginning. (a grand strategy rather then a tactical game if you will)

[Brother Aiwass]

Well, yes. Maybe its a bit alien, but alien or not, the range of minis that could be made and used (clans, mutants, techno-barbarians, thunder warriors) can be easily used in 30k/40k and would bring extra variety to Militia/IG/renegades armies and even 30k/40k marines being the thunder warrior armor either relic armor or garbage pariah armor