30k strength d rules

[Theredknight]

So I'm at throne of skulls and apparently there are no longer the 30k strength d option, only the crazy 40k ones.

They aren't in the new legion book, but in retribution.

I took the legion book as a compendium, so being the most recent does it supersede it and basically 'delete' the rule?

[Flint13]

^Why would Retribution be overwritten by the Legion book unless the rule is specifically mentioned? 

 

The AoD Strength D rules are supposed to be used with AoD instead of the bananapants bat:cuss 40k interpretation. 

 

Unless you can find a passage in the new legion book that says "DON'T USE AOD STR-D" I think you'll be good to go against any reasonable opponent. 

 

EDIT

 

The new legion book assumes you're using the AoD Str-D rules as standard. It's why they gave the Falchion the shock-pulse upgrade. If you were using the 40k Str-D rules, it would be a useless +35 pts. 

[Theredknight]

Oh I wasn't, it jut came up with a guy with 3 Titans.

[Flint13]

There should have been more red flags there than just his Str-D interpretation :lol:

[Charlo]

It's weird that the only place they have the rule down is Betrayal and not the little rules summary in the Legion List/ Tagmahta books etc :(

[PastelAvenger]

I'm on the fence about this one since they were not reprinted in the new red book.

[Flint13]

^Again, the newest pub out of FW (the red book) assumes you're already using the AoD Strength D rules, so there should be zero issues.

[Theredknight]

Exactly I guess it can be down to your own group, but tourneys would be regular rules?

Like the new FAQs some people use them, I don't becaus they aren't official and stuff.

[Flint13]

^I assume if it's a HH tournament it would use 'regular' HH 30k rules.

 

It'd be a little word otherwise.

[Brofist]

30k has always used the rules from our BRB unless otherwise changed somewhere. The new book has no information about alternative rules for AoD destroyer weapons, and since it's our most recent release, it takes precedence. That's the way it's always been.

 

Does this make the Falchion upgrade confusing? You bet it does, it makes no sense, but to claim the core rules should be different based on the assumption of what the design team intended regarding one unit from the book... well, it's a bit of a stretch. It's much more likely they omitted those rules because they aren't an option anymore. Not to mention that they were optional to begin with.

 

What was the last book they were printed in anyway? I just checked Retribution and couldn't find them in there. The Mech book doesn't have them either.

[PastelAvenger]

^Again, the newest pub out of FW (the red book) assumes you're already using the AoD Strength D rules, so there should be zero issues.

I found the rule initially in the AoD book the AoD book has been republished without therefore anyone coming into the game just picking up the rules wouldn't know of any 30k D weapon rules as they aren't published.

[Brofist]

As for the Falchion it's not the Shock Pulse, but the Feedback rule that doesn't trigger with the BRB D rules. You never roll on the damage table, but you do get pens. It's a good thing. 30 points for a chance to strip your own hull points on a 500+ point model. Boy howdy.

[Theredknight]

Again forgeworlds lack of editing skills there (unless intentional) have left the rules out of the new legion book (they were in lacal)

Its by agreement only, so is open to people saying 'it's not in the book, so you can't use it' as AOD legions supersedes lacal.

[PastelAvenger]

Or they have got the editing perfect and have left it out on purpose due to the change in Destroyer weapons from when 30k was first designed to the 40k rules we use now.

[Flint13]

As for the Falchion it's not the Shock Pulse, but the Feedback rule that doesn't trigger with the BRB D rules. You never roll on the damage table, but you do get pens. It's a good thing. 30 points for a chance to strip your own hull points on a 500+ point model. Boy howdy.

Because paying 35pts for a rule whose only function is to strip your own hull points makes so much more sense than FW assuming that you're using an AoD rules modification to the BrB rules set in a game of AoD.

 

That is what you are saying, correct? I don't want to make a stretch and assume things here.

[Theredknight]

Or they have got the editing perfect and have left it out on purpose due to the change in Destroyer weapons from when 30k was first designed to the 40k rules we use now.

On the d weapons it could be perfect at least

[Brofist]

 

As for the Falchion it's not the Shock Pulse, but the Feedback rule that doesn't trigger with the BRB D rules. You never roll on the damage table, but you do get pens. It's a good thing. 30 points for a chance to strip your own hull points on a 500+ point model. Boy howdy.

Because paying 35pts for a rule whose only function is to strip your own hull points makes so much more sense than FW assuming that you're using an AoD rules modification to the BrB rules set in a game of AoD.

 

That is what you are saying, correct? I don't want to make a stretch and assume things here.

 

 

The price increase is bizarre no matter how you interpret it. The Falchion was never great. Now it costs more, albeit with shock pulse it's going to be shutting down enemy vehicles a heck of a lot. I'm not sure if it's cost effective though.

 

D weapons don't roll to penetrate armour or cause wounds. The Feedback rule only triggers when you fail to roll for armour penetration or fail a wound roll, so it never actually triggers because you're rolling on the D table. The shock pulse rule triggers on any successful pen, which happens 5/6 times on the D table. So those 35 points are for a 83% chance to force your target to only snap fire. You can effectively ignore the feedback rule due to how they wrote it.

[Caillum]

^ Not exactly. The Feedback rule simply says "if you fail to Pen or Wound". If you roll a 1 on the Destroyer Table, then by my reckoning you fail to Pen or Wound and might lose a hull point. Similarly, if you score a Pen (a 2-6 on the Destroyer table), you force them to Snap Fire. So the Falchion upgrade is not useless with standard 40k Destroyer rules.

 

As for the optional 30k D rules? They're entirely that - optional.

 

Having said that, I think my crew needs to have a look at them though. Knights are one of my main opponents now, and from what I hear the 30k D rules really balance things out.

[Brofist]

The specific wording for Feedback is "fails it's Penetration roll against a target vehicle's armour, or fails a To Wound roll against a target model". So it's referencing Penetration and To Wound rolls. If you look up D the rules for weapons, they specifically say that they roll on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table "instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration."

 

RAI it's likely as you say, but RAW feedback doesn't trigger. Shock Pulse works either way though :)

[Flint13]

 

 

As for the Falchion it's not the Shock Pulse, but the Feedback rule that doesn't trigger with the BRB D rules. You never roll on the damage table, but you do get pens. It's a good thing. 30 points for a chance to strip your own hull points on a 500+ point model. Boy howdy.

 

Because paying 35pts for a rule whose only function is to strip your own hull points makes so much more sense than FW assuming that you're using an AoD rules modification to the BrB rules set in a game of AoD.

That is what you are saying, correct? I don't want to make a stretch and assume things here.

 

The price increase is bizarre no matter how you interpret it. The Falchion was never great. Now it costs more, albeit with shock pulse it's going to be shutting down enemy vehicles a heck of a lot. I'm not sure if it's cost effective though.

 

D weapons don't roll to penetrate armour or cause wounds. The Feedback rule only triggers when you fail to roll for armour penetration or fail a wound roll, so it never actually triggers because you're rolling on the D table. The shock pulse rule triggers on any successful pen, which happens 5/6 times on the D table. So those 35 points are for a 83% chance to force your target to only snap fire. You can effectively ignore the feedback rule due to how they wrote it.

Except they do roll to both wound and penetrate armor when you're talking using them with the AoD rules set. Str10AP1, Sunder, Instant Death, re-roll successful invulnerables, 1+d3 wounds.

 

Which is why the Falchion's Shock pulse upgrade is written like it is. B/c it works just fine when you're using the AoD rules for Str D. It's a pretty great upgrade when you don't argue a pedantic interpretation into the ground.

 

30k is an optional modification to the Warhammer 40k rules system.

 

Seems silly to get so crazy salty about one particular part.

[Brofist]

Haha, hey now, I'm hardly salty. It's just how the rules are written and this is the place to talk about them. It affects people like Threadknight directly and we should absolutely have a discussion about it. AoD destroyer weapons aren't in our book anymore. I'm just finding it a tough sell if we argue they were omitted as a mistake when they haven't been around for a while and were optional to begin with. The only real argument we have for keeping them are the reworked rules for the Falchion, which are strange either way. If you feel strongly about this one way or another- its just a game and this is just a dumb forum. Talk to the people you play with, weigh the options, and figure out what you want to do. We shouldn't be slaves to how we enjoy this game.

 

This happened with squadron tank rules, some might recall. Those were published in betrayal and then omitted from every single book until the latest update. Nobody used them because they were missing despite the fact that the entry made no sense. FWs poor editing leads to a lot of issues like this.

[Theredknight]

Yes basically a newer player would not know about the AOD D-weapon rules because it isn't in the new book. It was in LACAL, but hasn't been in the last few of big books either (I checked)

So my point is is this: is it now not valid due the access to the rule that some will not have?

I mean if you turn up, and you are intent on using 40k d rules (you know no other) and I pulled out LACAL to say these are the AOD rules, I am told that as its not in the new one, it has been superseded by AOD legion book.

At things like throne of skulls, I know most d users will use 40k now, due to that reason.

[Flint13]

^I kinda see where you're going with that reasoning, but the AoD Str D rules haven't been superseded by the newest red book. They haven't been reprinted b/c they haven't changed. 

 

Stuff in Codex Space Marines doesn't change when a new Dark Angels codex comes out. Same deal here.

 

While annoying b/c the Heresy already has a bit of a bad rap for being stretched over multiple books, that's what the deal is. 

[Lord Blackwood]

Well they were optional in the LACAL werent they?  Doesn't that mean you would default to the BrB Destroyer Weapon Rules unless its agreed upon to use the ones in the LACAL ? 

[Balthamal]

TBH the fact there is an alternative version of the D rule in ANY of the HH volumes should say all that needs saying about which should be used. Just like the Battle in the Age of darkness bits and pieces etc. If it's different in the BBB to the BRB then to my mind they take precedence. I can see where the confusion comes from and yes, it's bad form to take the assumption that everyone has bought the volume where the distinction between rules is printed but a common sense approach is needed rather than taking the overly pedantic route with it all: FW have made specific notations where the AoD stuff supersedes the BrB - the fact a BBB has a differing versions of the D rules should be a pretty big hint about what their intentions are