The Grim Badger Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Hey folks! My gaming group have been playing Heresy for about a year now, and we love it. Just recently however, our games are starting to feel a little like an arms race for the most powerful units and combos we can squeeze into lists which really isnt where we all want to be. We have decided that self regulation and talking to our fellow gamers about what sort of game we want to play is key here. I was just wondering what other folks have done (if anything) to address this sort of thing in your own gaming groups. Do you just have a 'gentlemen's agreement' to avoid cheesy/beardy combos where they are too harsh, or do you just let people do their own thing? Interested to hear different takes on the subject :) Thanks all! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 A gentleman's agreement is the best approach, in my experience. Adding additional rules and restrictions doesn't really address the problem of army lists (in 30k or any other game), which is that finding loopholes and exceptions simply appeals to some players and not to others. Personally, I've always adopted the 'play the army you'd like to face' approach in my gaming group. We're mostly pretty laid back, and alert each other if we're intending to take a particular theme or style that might raise eyebrows. +++ As an aside (and I hasten to state that this is thoroughly untested) the following rule might go a long way to giving Age of Darkness games the heroic scope and scale that the setting deserves: Our Strength is Legion: The army may include two 20-man Legion Tactical Squads, with any upgrades normally allowed by the army list, for free. These do not count against the points limit, nor do they occupy any space on the Force Organisation chart (note that this means you must still purchase two compulsory Troops choices under the normal Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart). Basically, give everyone the option to take forty free marines and you'll quickly find that the visual presence of the horde makes games 'feel' better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4457785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grim Badger Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 I think you are quite correct, Apologist. I've thought long and hard about it, and I think its the only way forward. Nobody wants to face 3 deredeos, 9 Quad Mortars, and drop pod plasma squad spam hitting on 2's and rerolling 1's... I really like your suggestion for a house rule there, certainly would add some theme to the games! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4457796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 A gentleman's agreement is the best approach, in my experience. Adding additional rules and restrictions doesn't really address the problem of army lists (in 30k or any other game), which is that finding loopholes and exceptions simply appeals to some players and not to others. Personally, I've always adopted the 'play the army you'd like to face' approach in my gaming group. We're mostly pretty laid back, and alert each other if we're intending to take a particular theme or style that might raise eyebrows. +++ As an aside (and I hasten to state that this is thoroughly untested) the following rule might go a long way to giving Age of Darkness games the heroic scope and scale that the setting deserves: Our Strength is Legion: The army may include two 20-man Legion Tactical Squads, with any upgrades normally allowed by the army list, for free. These do not count against the points limit, nor do they occupy any space on the Force Organisation chart (note that this means you must still purchase two compulsory Troops choices under the normal Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart). Basically, give everyone the option to take forty free marines and you'll quickly find that the visual presence of the horde makes games 'feel' better. This is brilliant. It gives everyone an equal starting point. Very, very cool idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4457811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 I think you get to that point with all games when you play them enough, but I've noticed over the years that you do tend to get there rather faster with GW games! ;) We don't ban any particular units or tactics as such, but after they've been used successfully a few times by a player, you are expected to move on and mix your list up to try something different. Getting stuck on one list/unit/uber-combo is just dull for everyone, although we all acknowledge that it is still interesting to play with/against, nobody really wants to do it all the time. Therefore, whilst we play tight to the rules (as much as you can...), we do also self-moderate a bit and talk with each other beforehand if we have anything broken-crazy that we want to try. As an example (and it'll be brief, as it's not B&C-friendly) I used to play Infinity a lot and the Nomad faction had a great trick with a guided missile launcher that they were especially good at pulling off... I told my opponent beforehand (and got his approval), and then completely wiped him out for no loss by the end of turn 2. We were both speechless at how ruthless the combo was, and agreed that is wasn't really a game (we were all done within about ten minutes of set-up!). I pointed out that if I ever used the model again, I would restrict it to one shot a turn, and/or give him more notice before hand so that he could tailor a list against it, and my friend agreed that it would be much fairer and more fun that way. What this also means is that sometimes we advise our opponent in advance if we want to run a very experimental, soft, or overly-fluffy list so that they have the chance to perhaps bring a more appropriate level of opposition. Ultimately though, we're all friends and would like to continue playing games together for as long as possible. And so whilst we all like to play as well as we can, we don't necessarily bring the hardest most face-beating lists we can to every game because it's not very skilful to play or fun to face and goes against the main reason that we like playing games together and helping each other out in the first place. @ Apologist: Whilst Our Strength Is Legion is a cool house rule (I do like it!), I would rather agree with my friends what era of the 30k timeline we're playing in and therefore what sorts of units we'd like to see or feel are fluffy for each Legion. Much better for everyone to not have extra rules, but to play in the spirit of the game setting and Legion I feel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4457812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionnaire of the VIIth Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 For the most part, my group, should we feel something is a problem, will discuss it and come to a gentleman's agreement; however, I should note that my group isn't that competitive when it comes to playing so this might be more easily achieved by us then with others. @ Apologist: How would you adjust that rule for Mechanicus, Militia/Cult, and Solar Auxilia players? Like you said it isn't thoroughly play tested but it just peaked my curiosity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4457857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 It's really simple, do not play the game like 40K. The community overall has shifted more towards take-all-comer power lists for pick-up games, which I attribute, right or wrong, to the easy entry level provided by Calth and the relative explosion of recasters on Alibaba a year or two ago (they've always been around, and still are, but an easy searchable eBay format with dirt-cheap prices compared to previous eBay offerings made them a big topic of discussion, prompting the swift crackdown from GW). A combination of an easier entry and ever increasing quality of 30K, and the ramping up insanity of 40K turning off a vocal minority (maybe not minority, but certainly vocal ) of its players, and we have a merging of distinct playerbases. The solution is actually quite simple, play the campaigns and alternate book missions, don't just do random Age of Darkness lists. You don't have to work your way through the story missions one by one, but a game can be a lot more fun and engaging when you have specific objectives and force organizations, for example that fight over the landing pad in book 2 during the massacre, a small force of Loyalists with various defensive emplacements fighting off a much larger force of attacks from each side, while others try to escape into orbit. Great stuff right out of the stories. The Conquest campaign in book 4 is even better, you can make it a really long-running thing, and introduce relics in the way they were intended, so when you find one, it's a real accomplishment and sets your force apart from others. Regarding the 40 marine rule, does it impact the total point cost of the games you play? If it's reducing your games to 2000 from 2500 for example, that's the same as having two more compulsory troop units at maximum size. And does it impact the size of your tables and the amount of terrain? 80 more 32mm bases on every table who can't move through cover can cause a lot of traffic jams, but I guess it would certainly look like all those FW photos with just tons of dudes with bolters facing off. What do you do for other factions, just make something up based on their available collection (very easy to acquire 40 marines, less so 20 thallax)? I like it in concept. :) (smiley because genuine question, not being sarcastic or combative since everyone can be so sensitive around here, lol) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4457860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Regarding the 'Our Strength is Legion'; it's entirely off the top of my head. No play testing at all - just something that appeals to me as a way to encourage the use of basic Space Marines. It's an aesthetic concept - i.e. just to follow the stories and artworks, where there are Space Marines with bolters as far as the eye can see, and nary a 'specialist' in sight :p - as much as a 'crunch' one, but if you do try it out, I'd love to hear what the results are! With regards to Militia, Mechanicum etc., I've no idea. Hadn't thought that far :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4457881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 I guess it's pretty easy top balance.. No more than 3 sunder weapons, no combi weapons, no armored ceramite, no AV15. Guess that's what makes an unbalanced game the most. Open to ideas for never do this twice builds too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Restrictions like that are too tedious, and open the door in the opposite direction where people whine about an increasing number of things until you may as well play with Jervis codices and use the Battle of Calth rules. Just play scenarios. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Whenever I try to build a terrifying list Slipstreams punches me in the throat and says to bring more tac marines ! The answer is more tac marines Just enforce a tactical / breacher / assault marine tax ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soldier of Dorn Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Whenever I try to build a terrifying list Slipstreams punches me in the throat and says to bring more tac marines ! The answer is more tac marines Just enforce a tactical / breacher / assault marine tax ! Someday, I want the core of my list to just be 3 20 man Tactical Squads. One day... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 One method I've seen work is at minimum make compulsory troop choices min of three if at max strength or min of 4 if at 75% strength. Also these have to be either breachers, assault or tactical marines. If using "special troops" i.e. Pride of the legion or unlocks by a character then you'd have to spend at least half your total points (character included) in these special troops. This makes a more thematic game! I'm not a fan of facing three sicarans and a typhon backed by a terminator squad in a flare shield Spartan when I'm running a horde. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 One method I've seen work is at minimum make compulsory troop choices min of three if at max strength or min of 4 if at 75% strength. Also these have to be either breachers, assault or tactical marines. If using "special troops" i.e. Pride of the legion or unlocks by a character then you'd have to spend at least half your total points (character included) in these special troops. This makes a more thematic game! I'm not a fan of facing three sicarans and a typhon backed by a terminator squad in a flare shield Spartan when I'm running a horde. That seems pretty repressive to me honestly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Whenever I try to build a terrifying list Slipstreams punches me in the throat and says to bring more tac marines ! The answer is more tac marines Just enforce a tactical / breacher / assault marine tax ! Say what now? :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m606ms8omJ1qj5jqso1_400.gifIts like this , but your screaming TAC MARINES , LESS TANKS , TAKE THE PHOSPHEX Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Nah, dude, you should know by now that I personally don't run/enjoy Tac Marines. Its just that of your lists, tac marines would have been a better option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 = n = i obviously just need more tanks , that way I can drive over the tactical marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obscura Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 A lot of people getting into 30k in my area have a hard on for vehicles, which kind of forced me to snag two Spartans to act as shields for my droves of Tactical / Breacher Squads. I'd love to play more games where it's nothing but footsloggers and jump packs going at it with the occasional Contemptor and all of it centering around the two generals fighting each other in an epic duel. At the moment it's a huge arms race and I'm instilling the seed of smaller thematic games into the local gaming circles with various degrees of success. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Play Zone Mortalis and/or City Fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obscura Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I'm trying to find more people who want to play either of those, right now they're all about big vehicles and stuff. It's a tad disheartening at times, but I shall endure! Besides, ZM is where it's at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grim Badger Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share Posted August 5, 2016 Great suggestions everyone :) thank you for indulging me! The key issue I see is trying to stop weapons / tactics that just auto-delete parts of armies on turn 1 and ruining all the fun of a proper pitched battle. I still think the only true way forward is self-regulation in line with a gentleman's agreement against anything too 'gamey-cheesey-beardy', so we will likely go with that. Rather liked that idea of having additional tactical marines on both sides though. Most interesting! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Proper (read: very heavy) use of terrain will go a long way towards rebalancing things in favour of infantry, if you're finding an escalation in the number of vehicles. +++EDIT+++ Just spotted you're down in the South-East, Grim Badger – anywhere near Kent/Surrey? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324464-keeping-it-cool/#findComment-4458904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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