Praetorian of Dorn

[Marshal Rohr]

Did you read what I was replying to? The guy inaccurately used Sigismund as an example of black library loving to have 40k tied to the heresy. Sigismund doesn't exist anywhere but the heresy. Why would he be a tie in to 40k?

[A D-B]

Too much of the Heresy has the same movers and shakers of 40k as the movers and shaker of 30k.

 

Cut because I was going way off-topic.

[Marshal Rohr]

My thoughts

 

 

 

-The Alpha Legion treads the line between believable and impossible even in fantasy. The fleet using inertia and gravity to approach the Solar System undetected was brilliant, as were the mission parameter code phrases in the case of eventualities. The impossible parts are the same parts they always are, combat and complexity.

 

-I'm really sad no one is going to give the fists a cool culture cue like literally every other legion has at this point. It's all just Fist icons and yellow armor. No nagralki equivalents, no night lords or word bearers parity. It's just a legion of one hundred thousand space marines. The stuff they do add is impossible to represent in conversions. The silver lining of that is I can move my own fluff away from the 'inner circle' of black library characters close to the Primarch without there being any chance of having it tread on by a later release.

 

-As always I am more interested in the side notes than the main story. How do the trade cartels work on Terra, where are the Aska mountains, who is included in the consanguinity, etc. These facts do more to expand the setting and our own army backgrounds than another novel about loyalists and traitors killing each other. Maybe one day we'll get a true heresy era fact book, right after hell freezes.

 

-Archamus and Silonius flashback sequences were some of the best parts of the novel. I wasn't as impressed with Dorn's speech to Aloharius because, while cool in theory, as I was reading it I realized none of it made sense because it was all specific to a battle. It would've been far cooler for Dorn to shred the underlying theories of Alpha Legion martial philosophy instead of say something like 'in 36 hours they would've lost because their communication went down'. It's physically impossible to measure human response to stress and death, even a Primarch can't miracle math it. The Alpha Legion couldn't function in reality because of the afore mentioned over complexity. It would be nice to see an author devote some time to applying reality to the Marvel comics like traits of the legions.

 

-Archamus feeling dirty because he had to hunt down the AL makes zero sense. It's counterinsurgency, there's nothing honorable or dishonorable about it. It's just part of holding the solar system. Sigismund and Rann seem to be the only guys who kind of understand how a chain of command works. Everyone else in the novel has a bad case of 'my opinions and thoughts matter when my boss tells me what to do'.

 

-John shines the most in the final battle and proves why I love him so much. It wasn't quite as realistic as his battle of Phall, but it still worked out well. The Primarch fight required a split attention, so it balanced out. The way Dorn kills Alpharius was perfect and totally flips the BL trope of sword fights with time for conversation. Alpharius egged him on and Dorn shut him up. He also does really well describing the Breachers and their tactics but he falls into the 'five guys can make a difference' trap, but every author does that so it's no big deal.

 

Anyway, the book is easily a 9/10 and required reading for anyone who like the fists or alphas. Johns an amazing author.

 

 

 

 

[b1soul]

Not sure of Marshal is saying what I'm thinking, but . . .

 

 

the IF are quite bland in this book. Archamus is an old guy who comes across as not too bright. Kestros is a simple-minded blunt instrument. The legion feels like 100,000 vanilla marines with yellow paintjobs

 

 

The Alphas completely stole the show IMO

[Roomsky]

 

 

 

-Archamus and Silonius flashback sequences were some of the best parts of the novel. I wasn't as impressed with Dorn's speech to Aloharius because, while cool in theory, as I was reading it I realized none of it made sense because it was all specific to a battle. It would've been far cooler for Dorn to shred the underlying theories of Alpha Legion martial philosophy instead of say something like 'in 36 hours they would've lost because their communication went down'. It's physically impossible to measure human response to stress and death, even a Primarch can't miracle math it. The Alpha Legion couldn't function in reality because of the afore mentioned over complexity. It would be nice to see an author devote some time to applying reality to the Marvel comics like traits of the legions.

 

-Archamus feeling dirty because he had to hunt down the AL makes zero sense. It's counterinsurgency, there's nothing honorable or dishonorable about it. It's just part of holding the solar system. Sigismund and Rann seem to be the only guys who kind of understand how a chain of command works. Everyone else in the novel has a bad case of 'my opinions and thoughts matter when my boss tells me what to do'.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I love it when primarchs are shown to be impossibly good at what they do. I may be in the minority but its why I liked the Curze segments in Unremembered Empire, he's so impossibly effective because we mere mortals cannot comprehend how they function. It's a common trap in fiction to have the oh-so advanced lifeforms think and function in ways we do. Its a weird hubris I'm glad some authors are fending off by using the old can't-see-into-primarch's-heads tactic. Though I can understand why many find it frustrating.

 

As for chain of command, keep in mind that Archamus himself said that the praetorian's job was to keep Dorn from his own hubris. What exactly he means by this can go a few ways, but I take it as offering council as well as the physical reminder. I believe it was also stated that Kestros was chosen so he could offer a blunt viewpoint in contrast to Andromeda's, so he may earn a pass as well.

 

 

[HeritorA]

you'll have some saying the AL are whipping boys getting their butts handed to them, others saying they're mary sues who run rings around the other legions, and both sides convinced they're right.

I can at least understand the accusations of being over-powered

Before PoD...who in their right mind would say they're whipping boys?

Hydra?

In this thread "swimming around" like a shark after blood is the guy that is going to kill my favourite caracther. Am I upset? Hella upset! RAWRRR

But I have come to terms that it is the nature of the fluff.

Just roll with the punches and enjoy the books for what they are.

Works of fiction, meant to entertain and tell stories of dystopian lands and futures.

Well I think the BT fans will have a heart attack if Abaddon beats Siggles like the red-headed step child he is

ADB will be cursed to high heaven for daring to touch the wayward boy-child known as Sigismund.

The complaints about how AL are treated in this book are a joke. The Legion with more plot armour that Tau.

ADB will be the target of a most holy crusade if happens in an unworthy manner.

I'll lead it myself. Sigismund is probably my favourite 40K character ever - at least in terms of his old, mythic lore. The idea of Sigsimund. This is going to hurt me as much as anyone.

Dude, you kill characters in great ways, so I don't have the shadow of a doubt it will be cool.

I can't wait to read about the fall of Sigismund, just like I'll be having a sound moment when I'll read about Lheor passing away in his brother's arms.

You do your thing. I'll be reading.

He will be killed by this hands, lol - that would be a good trolling for a long lost Void Stalker

[HeritorA]

He respects the strong. But im sure Siggles (lol cool nickname) will give him a parting gift. A card, a chocolate or maybe one of those fluffy bears...

One thing is certain for some reason abby had to get the daemon sword and eventually got the marks of the 4 gods of chaos. I like to think it was because Sigismund gave him a run for his money.

On topic tho. The book lacked siggles chooping up alphas.

 

That would be much later on. But anyway what A D-B flaw with Abaddon is - is that after a total disaster at Siege of Terra - a millennia later, in Eye of Terror he is shown as a romantic knight, lol. Guys do you really think - he would be thinking about something so miserable as honor????

 

 

That is very much down to how the AL operate, and what makes them interesting. They can do well enough in regular warfare, they're Space Marines after all - but their specialty is in covert ops and playing the long con. Their goals and methods are far more convoluted than those of other Legions. Most of their activities in the Heresy are trying to influence the course of history to their liking, nudging other forces here and there - that's a different type of victory, I give you that, but its not that they don't win. They win where it counts for their agenda.

And even then, the stuff they pull off in Praetorian of Dorn is incredible, utterly brilliantly coordinated and all in character of the Legion.

 

It seems also kinda ironic for an Alpha Legion fan to complain about their army not winning enough when this is the first real Imperial Fists book in the series, and apart from some stories like The Crimson Fist or Templar, have never been in the thick of it. And even then, The Crimson Fist had them take massive losses and retreat by Dorn's orders. You're somehow complaining that the AL didn't completely trump the stars of the book, who desperately needed some big success of their own.

 

What makes AL interesting is that they are one of top best military forces who achieve their victories through a detailed planning and execution.  What BL authors have failed to show again and again is that they are a military force with tanks, Thunderhaws, APCes, etc.who can come and smash whatever they are fighting against and do it in choreographic and well rehearsed manner with zero or minimal losses.  Instead we read all the time about "sneaky-sneaky" Alpha Legion who are so smart they have a finger dipped everywhere but get their arses kicked when it comes to walk the walk. 

 

This book is no different.  It supposed to be about the Imperial Fists but apparently a major part of it covers "sneaky-sneaky" Alpha Legion who...

get their arses handed to them again at the end and their Primarch killed.

  And yes I do need a victory because frankly I m getting sick and tired of that "sneaky-sneaky" garbage in conjunction with what it usually followed by in every book or story about AL.

 

 

Paramar V was one, and there were some pre-heresy ones from their FW entry. And while not conventional or full battlefield engagements, they seemed to win out in Hunter's Moon, The Face of Treachery, Deliverance Lost, The Harrowing, Liar's Due and on Tallarn.

 

No.  It's my personal opinion and I am entitled to it.

 

Also they won on Cypra Mundi and on Mars.

[HeritorA]

Abaddon doesn't make any pacts with the Chaos Gods though does he. Unless I'm mistaken?

To be honest, I've heard that Sigismund dies by choking on a carrot stick and Abaddon refuses to do the heimlich maneuver.

LOL - FOR THAT WE HAVE http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/323391-the-black-legion/ THREAD!

Well he does have the 4 marks of chaos...

No, at that point he does not!

Instead we read all the time about "sneaky-sneaky" Alpha Legion who are so smart they have a finger dipped everywhere but get their arses kicked when it comes to walk the walk.

When has the AL had their butts kicked?

Like in Praetoria of Dorn? Like in 'Wolf KIng'? Like in 'Scars'?

Heresy needs more Fafnir Rann. IMO he's one of the coolest (if not THE) IF. I enjoy the contrast between him and Sig. Hope they'll get another short story or wathever.

Nope - Fafnir Rann seems more like a space puppy, instead of being an Imperial Fist.

Who was the person in the cell with Kye when he was recruited?

Obviously, Omegon. Setting up his brother many years later.

jk jk!

True! But that was Magnus actually

[HeritorA]

This book gets a thumbs up from me not only because of the great Alpha v Fists action,

But because of the Volkites! If you like Volkites, this book is for you.

Volkite lovers - REJOICE!

I always thought the Alpha Legion gave the Space Wolves a thorough trashing in that space battle from that Novel I can't remember the name of (helpful I know).

Nope - they were trashed instead. Cause if where ever was a Legion with PLOT TERRA DEEP ARMOUR- it's fething space puppies with 'wet leopard growl' - gav gav

Here's my review of Praetorian of Dorn. Spoiler tags for the uninitiated.

Horus Heresy Book 39: The Holy Quotient

Holy , that was one hell of a book. I didn't think it could beat Path of Heaven, but this is a masterpiece.

John has always been a weird author for me. He'd never written anything bad, and hell, The Last Remembrancer was downright amazing. But for some reason i still cannot identify, some kind of warp incursion clouding my judgement most likely, I couldn't get into his stuff. It was fine, don't get me wrong, but not great.

But then, I read this.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/613/1426467217270.jpg

My face, upon completing Praetorian of Dorn

I don't know what he did, but John has ascended, at least in my eyes, and has delivered one of the strongest books the heresy's had in years.

The Good

John French is the only author who writes Dorn as anything other than an angry piece of wood. What's more, he's supremely likeable in his stubbornness, no easy feet. The moment where he schooled Alpharius on strategy was just beautiful. What's more, as John mentioned in the afterword, we get to see more of Dorn's character arc, and his fears about what will be left behind in the battle against Horus.

The Fists are presented well, too. Archamus was a pretty cool d00d, and his backstory made him quite likeable. It was a good story choice to have the one guy who might challenge Regal Door's booming commands at the forefront. I'm a little sad we didn;t get more Siggy, as he was my favourite part of The Crimson Fist, but as many have said, it wasn't his story.

The whole story was a triumph in Alpha Legion writing. We didn't have to wait 350 pages of "Nyo ho ho, soon our nebulous plan will be complete, and all the inane you've bared witness to shall be given purpose." Instead, we got an immediate demonstration of the effects of, like, 10 dudes. This opening salvo of confusion makes their actions for the remainder of the story actually gripping, because you have already seen their effectiveness. What's more, in following them around we get a glimpse into how, while it seems like a series of flawlessly executed plans from the loyalist side, the actual astartes executing these plans encounter frequent stumbling blocks.

But what really sets this book apart for me was the plotting. While I still don;t think John's prose can compete with Aaron's or Chris', his plotting was phenomenal. It was a very well-paced web of character and events that, as any great plot should, weaved flawlessly together by the end. Maybe its just because so many Heresy books are rather straight-forward, even the likes of Legion, who seem straight-forward until a subversion at the end instead of keeping the mystery high throughout. Bravo, John French, you kicked this one out of the park.

And man, that final battle.

http://pre14.deviantart.net/445d/th/pre/i/2014/292/3/5/jontron___majestic__by_mechanicorga-d83g5mx.jpg

The Bad

There wasn't much, TBH.

As many have said, the flashback in the middle went a little too long. I feel what it set out to do could have been done in far less time. I guess we needed to know that Archamus was really good at being a Space Marine, but I think Dorn's trust already implied that well enough.

The space battle before the primarch fight was also a little meh. John is a master of suspense and character, but seeing such straightforward action didn't really play to his strengths. It was nice to see the Alpha's, and later the Fists, just decimate their opponents, but there wasn't any real tension. It was an overwhelming advantage for one side, which lacked tension because none of the important characters were really in harms' way except Siggy, and we know he'll be fine.

But the few negatives do little to tarnish this brilliant book, one which is now number 3 in my top Heresy entries. When your competition is, like, 600 other stories, you know you're a cut above the rest.

Due to a lot of absence of void warfare in 39 HH novels - the one in Praetorian of Dorn is great! By the way Roomsky is the rememberer from 'The Last rememberer' are the one from the flashback whom Archamus did saved?

[HeritorA]

Too much of the Heresy has the same movers and shakers of 40k as the movers and shaker of 30k.

Cut because I was going way off-topic.

Heretek! Kill Abaddon for us - just imagine what a surprise it would be

[Pariah32]

Hello I have a theory on what Alpharius was up to at the end of Praetorian of Dorn and how Alpharius accomplished some pretty major objectives.

 

What does the Alpha legion ask of its legionaries?

 

 

Everything

 

 

What does Alpharius give up at the end?

 

 

 

Everything

 

 

I'm not being purposefully obtuse this is my first post so I want to make sure I'm doing spoiler tags correctly.

[Roomsky]

 

Due to a lot of absence of void warfare in 39 HH novels - the one in Praetorian of Dorn is great! By the way Roomsky is the rememberer from 'The Last rememberer' are the one from the flashback whom Archamus did saved?

 

 

Oh my god it was. And here I thought John's genius couldn't be any greater.

 

Anywho, I'd say Aaron's void stuff in Betrayer was much it's superior, mostly because of the major thing John's was lacking: a meaningful POV (for that scene), and someone we care about in paril. Seeing the void war from Silonius' perspective, instead of as something closer to a battle report, probably would have spiced it up.

 

I suppose we've been a bit short on void stuff, though, and I definitely preferred it to, like, 30 pages of astartes punching each other or something.

[Tymell]

Not sure of Marshal is saying what I'm thinking, but . . .

 

 

the IF are quite bland in this book. Archamus is an old guy who comes across as not too bright. Kestros is a simple-minded blunt instrument. The legion feels like 100,000 vanilla marines with yellow paintjobs

 

 

The Alphas completely stole the show IMO

 

Thinking back on it, I got this feeling too, and I think it's the reason I give this an 8 rather than a 9. The Imperial Fists aren't bad, and admittedly I never expected them to have a legion culture quite as flavoursome as the White Scars or World Eaters, but it didn't leap out as a clear legion identity as much as some. Though this may also be partly because the book is a fairly even split between the Fists and the Alpha Legion, and even when it is focusing on the Imperial Fists it's more of a character piece about Archamus than an examination of the legion as a whole.

[DarKnight]

I'm sorry guys but I'm posting from my iPad and don't know how to post the spoiler brackets, so please if you don't want spoilers ignore this

Maybe I just was reading too fast and misunderstood the finer details of the duel scene between Dorn and Alpharius, but it didn't seem as though Alpharius had the advantage, "perfect thrust" or not. I just find it difficult to believe that Archamus could anticipate the blade work of a primarch and another primarch couldn't.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

okay everybody, Spoilers 101.

 

Type out message. 

Add "spoiler" in [] brackets to start spoiler.

End "/spoiler" in [] to end spoiler

 

 

Please start doing this correctly

 

[DarKnight]

You are a sorcerer

[b1soul]

it is focusing on the Imperial Fists it's more of a character piece about Archamus than an examination of the legion as a whole.

Archamus is boring character though (IMO)...so that is a problem

 

 

 

Maybe I just was reading too fast and misunderstood the finer details of the duel scene between Dorn and Alpharius, but it didn't seem as though Alpharius had the advantage, "perfect thrust" or not. I just find it difficult to believe that Archamus could anticipate the blade work of a primarch and another primarch couldn't.

 

 

Absent Archamus' intervention, who would've won is unclear. It was deliberately written to preserve ambiguity, not to mean that Alpharius would certainly have won minus Archamus. As you imply...Dorn is orders of magnitude smarter than Archamus, who isn't even that bright by SM standards. On top of that, it is debatable whether Archamus is even capable of significantly altering an enemy primarch's blow by sticking in his own weapon like that.

 

[Boldthreat]

 

Not sure of Marshal is saying what I'm thinking, but . . .

 

 

the IF are quite bland in this book. Archamus is an old guy who comes across as not too bright. Kestros is a simple-minded blunt instrument. The legion feels like 100,000 vanilla marines with yellow paintjobs

 

 

The Alphas completely stole the show IMO

 

Thinking back on it, I got this feeling too, and I think it's the reason I give this an 8 rather than a 9. The Imperial Fists aren't bad, and admittedly I never expected them to have a legion culture quite as flavoursome as the White Scars or World Eaters, but it didn't leap out as a clear legion identity as much as some. Though this may also be partly because the book is a fairly even split between the Fists and the Alpha Legion, and even when it is focusing on the Imperial Fists it's more of a character piece about Archamus than an examination of the legion as a whole.

 

 

 

I can understand why some feel this way, but I feel that the book captures the Imperial Fists perfectly.  I feel its rather unique that the Imperial Fists culture is almost completely derived from the legion itself, and not rooted in the greater planetary culture.  I got the understanding that what makes an Imperial Fist on Terra, is the exact same thing that makes an Imperial Fist on Inwit, or Necromunda, or in the Consus Drift, which is this ingrained-inner drive of never backing down or submitting; even if dealing with soul crushing pain or certain death.  The Legion then takes men (children) of that character, and instills 2 things in them as shown in Archamus' training and transformation: the reliance on your brothers (even if you just met them) and always no matter what doing your duty even if second guessing your orders... a lesson both Kye and Yonnad would learn with the death of the original Archamus.  

 

The truth is, with the Imperial Fists... an examination of Archamus is an examination of the legion... for the simple fact that the legion only recruits Archamus's.  I feel like Kye's training is just an extension of Alexis Polux's personal story in The Crimson Fist.  That whole story was about what makes an Imperial Fist what he is.  To Dorn, an by extension his legion, WHY you do anything is more important than doing it.  That is why Sigismund is in the position he is in currently.  It wasn't that he was on Terra, it was WHY he was on Terra that meant everything.  Why did Alexis disengage his forces in the middle of the fight that he was starting to win at Phall?  To do his duty and not second guess his orders (which he contemplated)... no matter what.  

 

That is what is so great about the Imperial Fists.  Their culture is the Great Crusade itself.  Its not Fenris or Caliban or Ultramar or Terra even.  Is it really cookie-cutter or vanilla?  Maybe... but I think that's why I like it so much.  Its when that ideal comes crashing down that I expect to get some really good Imperial Fist stories.  I cannot articulate how badly I want to read about Dorn discovering the bodies of Horus, Sanguinius and the Emperor.  That is when Rogal Dorn will break.  That is when things are going to start to get interesting.  The Scouring... the Iron Cage... the 2nd Founding... I want to read more about those than the actual battle for Terra!  

 

[b1soul]

I dunno...I think a legion should have a bit more behind it than the mantra of "never back down"

 

A lot of legions don't back down. Heck, the XVIth is all about "no backward step". I don't think the XIVth or IVth back down. I don't think the Xth backs down...

[Loesh]

Look forward to the future Imperial Fist books based on never backing down.

 

Never back down

Never back down 2: The back down

Never back down 3: Back down with a vengeance

Never back down 4: Live free or back down

Never back down 5: A good day to back down.

[Boldthreat]

I dunno...I think a legion should have a bit more behind it than the mantra of "never back down"

 

A lot of legions don't back down. Heck, the XVIth is all about "no backward step". I don't think the XIVth or IVth back down. I don't think the Xth backs down...

You are right. The truth is that all 18 legions are genetically enhanced super soldiers ingrained with a martial culture that espouses this idea of victory or death. Each space marine is a paragon or hero of his world, regardless of legion or chapter. I feel they all effectively do the same thing. It's just the minor differences we all personally pick out on why we enjoy one over the other.

 

But the book specifically shows you the kind of person that becomes an Imperial Fist. It's not enough to be the top 1 percent of humanity. You have to be able to endure pain and persevere through it. What was it? How many space marines made it through initiation compared to how many that started? It was a ridiculous turn-over. Isn't it specifically stated in Extermination how difficult and painful the 7th legions geneseed is to implement? It's practically stated that this is why through necessity or tradition the Fists only recruited a certain type of initiate.

 

The Fists aren't "the never back down guys" because they are the baddest guys on the block. That would be boring and lazy. But I do believe the Fists are unique in why they don't back down. And it's not because they endure pain better than the others (all space marines are made to be tough and endure on Super human levels), it's the whole legions mindset in pursuit of the ideals of the Great Crusade. It may be minor, but it's what makes me really enjoy the 7th. Maybe the Fists are truly bland in that regard. There isn't an obvious "thing" to them. Maybe they are just regular space marines and that's it. But that's still a pretty cool thing to be right?

[mc warhammer]

I dunno...I think a legion should have a bit more behind it than the mantra of "never back down"

 

A lot of legions don't back down. Heck, the XVIth is all about "no backward step". I don't think the XIVth or IVth back down. I don't think the Xth backs down...

 

does the IF culture as explored in "space marine" by ian watson still count these days?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I dunno...I think a legion should have a bit more behind it than the mantra of "never back down"

 

A lot of legions don't back down. Heck, the XVIth is all about "no backward step". I don't think the XIVth or IVth back down. I don't think the Xth backs down...

does the IF culture as explored in "space marine" by ian watson still count these days?

God that would be weird

[SpawningDoom4u]

After reading this thread, and mostly the last few responses, I think I have some more clarity on what the may have actually been the purpose behind this specific Alpha legion scheme. I'm not a fantastic analyst or writer so please be patient.

In, "The Serpent Beneath," we see a fairly clear distinction between the twin Primarch's view points. From what I gathered, the legion seems to have been divided at this point between the Primarch's view points. Now I'm not saying they were pro Horus or pro Emperor because this would discount their 3rd paradox, or whatever the hell it's called, which I still have yet to figure out. Regardless, it seems they have two different ideologies. We see this by Omegon sending a team to destroy the station that is interfering with the WS ability to travel/communicate (my memory isn't that fantastic). Simultaneously, We see, who I believe to be Alpharius, launching an all-out assault on the SW in, "Wolf King"

Prior to this point, I believe it is possible that Alpharius knew that Omegon's viewpoint deferred from his own and that this difference in viewpoint divided the Legion, not allowing them to operate at their full potential. This whole scheme may have been an intention for Alpharius to unite the Legion. I was confused when I read the end of the novel because, up to this point, it seemed that Alpharius would be more inclined to oppose "loyalist" Marines, rather than try to help them. I don't have the exact quote, but Alpharius kept trying to tell Dorn that he was there to help Dorn achieve victory.

But wouldn't Alpharius be wise enough to know that after all the actions his legion took against Terra and the IF that Dorn would not even be remotely inclined to listen to him, I believe so. I also believe that Alpharius may have purposely set this plan in motion, expecting his own demise.

But why would he do this? Perhaps because he knew that if Dorn would kill him that it would sway Omegon to Alpharius’ view point. And in the end it seems that Omegon was reluctant and almost surprised, that he was going to move forward in the way that he was.

I must say I love the AL and I was a loyalist until I seen what Dorn did to Alpharius, but I think this novel sent me into full heretic mode. A transformation that I believe was experienced by Omegon as well.

Well that’s my revelation, please feel free to discuss, dispute, curse me out for heresy, whatever you’d like,

[no I'm alpharius]

 

I dunno...I think a legion should have a bit more behind it than the mantra of "never back down"

 

A lot of legions don't back down. Heck, the XVIth is all about "no backward step". I don't think the XIVth or IVth back down. I don't think the Xth backs down...

 

does the IF culture as explored in "space marine" by ian watson still count these days?

 

So I guess I'm best described as a lapsed 40k player and the early 90s were when I first got involved. 

 

And off I went to look that reference up. 

 

"Ah, the scarface space marine" :)