Pariah32 Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 SpawningDoom4u That was so my theory as well. Reveal hidden contents Reveal hidden contents I believe that Alpharius gave up his life to give Dorn a victory that was not really a victory at all but a way of making the Alpha Legion even more dangerous under the new leadership of Omegon as he would seek vengeance for the death of his twin. I don't believe for a second that Alpharius would give his life away for nothing! Also during Wolf King I don't think it was Alpharius as we know from Praetorian of Dorn that he was in stasis on Earth for about a year. Also when Silonious showed up at the edge of the Sol system with the Alpha fleet it was all scorched and shot up which I believe would of been the battle with the Chimera fortress in Wolf King. Coincidentally providing camouflage for the fleet for the upcoming harrowing. Reveal hidden contents Also... Reveal hidden contents What I cant work out was whether during the seventh serpent novella by Graham Mcneil if it was in fact Alpharius? or Omegon? or any one of the Alpha legions head hunters? And to make things more complicated 'Alpharius' did not kill Sharrowkyn because Magnus asked him not to? what the hell was that? Reveal hidden contents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4493936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah32 Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Also as a side note the internal art for this book was really good quality and is the kind of quality that BL should be maintaining throughout the rest of the series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4494166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I finished the book and had some time to think it over, and am still very conflicted with it. I left my full review here but it basically comes down to the Imperial Fists being outshone by the Alpha Legion in terms of presence. Dorn's and Archamus's scenes were excellent, and the Alpha Legion's schemes were as well, but put together something didn't fit well for me. There wasn't enough time for the Fists to show their worth, collectively, as a Legion. I don't need big battles for that, but there are other ways to explore and define a Legion than showing them in action scenes. John's passion for the Alpha Legion is obvious, of course, but at one point it started feeling like too much for me, whereas Dorn and co seemed sidelined. They were reactionary, sure, but in my eyes it went far beyond that, and they suffered as a result. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4494188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Just to add... Loved how Archamus was conscious for a lot of his Reveal hidden contents Astarte's surgery Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4494268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpawningDoom4u Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Pariah32, I think I just need to read every alpha Legion book again to try to figure out the timeline and placement of each Primarch and or "Kel Silonius" & "Ingo Pesh". I for sure missed something because towards the end of this book Reveal hidden contents I definitely lost track of where the hell Silonius went, and where the hell Alpharius came in. I thought that Silonius drank Alpharius' blood, got mind wiped, and then got place on Terra. So when Silonius had the spear, I thought he was just playing the part of Alpharius and that actual Alpharius wasn't there. Anyway I'm probably so lost because I had text to speech read me the book to and from work and it seems I missed some very important stuff. It wasn't till a day later when I said, "oh Crap, was that actually The Dude. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4494803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 It has to be Alpharius. A normal marine couldn't move faster than a Primarc in solo combat. Right? Even with the boost of a Primarch's blood? Seriously, right?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4494876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 On 9/6/2016 at 4:42 PM, Roomsky said: On 9/6/2016 at 8:43 AM, HeritorA said: Due to a lot of absence of void warfare in 39 HH novels - the one in Praetorian of Dorn is great! By the way Roomsky is the rememberer from 'The Last rememberer' are the one from the flashback whom Archamus did saved? Oh my god it was. And here I thought John's genius couldn't be any greater. Anywho, I'd say Aaron's void stuff in Betrayer was much it's superior, mostly because of the major thing John's was lacking: a meaningful POV (for that scene), and someone we care about in paril. Seeing the void war from Silonius' perspective, instead of as something closer to a battle report, probably would have spiced it up. I suppose we've been a bit short on void stuff, though, and I definitely preferred it to, like, 30 pages of astartes punching each other or something. True - that's why, probably, the best novel from that point of view would be a battle for Lunar bases right before the Siege of Terra Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4494975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 On 9/7/2016 at 5:34 AM, mc warhammer said: On 9/7/2016 at 3:54 AM, b1soul said: I dunno...I think a legion should have a bit more behind it than the mantra of "never back down" A lot of legions don't back down. Heck, the XVIth is all about "no backward step". I don't think the XIVth or IVth back down. I don't think the Xth backs down... does the IF culture as explored in "space marine" by ian watson still count these days? It seems like nothing from that book still counts, especially not the bit where the Fists have Dorn's entire skeleton (except the hands) encased in amber and on display. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4496970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 I interviewed John Thursday about this book with no big spoilers, but afterwards we talked for a bit about some first impressions of the book. The first flashback I thought for a moment might be baby Dorn and the golden armor was open (until the plume is described) but that, yay! we finally get back to primarch flashbacks in HH books again. Well, that was wrong, but just curious what you all read into that first flashback since I missed the subtlety--racing for the big surprise ending as I was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4497311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Just reread Last Remembrancer after this and it was sad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4498720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 On 9/12/2016 at 3:52 AM, Kilofix said: Just reread Last Remembrancer after this and it was sad. Exactly - to see the full glory of Golden Age and Great Crusade and to fall so deep. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4498869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 On 9/12/2016 at 9:08 AM, HeritorA said: On 9/12/2016 at 3:52 AM, Kilofix said: Just reread Last Remembrancer after this and it was sad. Exactly - to see the full glory of Golden Age and Great Crusade and to fall so deep. 1. I have to figure out how JF travelled to the future to write PoD then back to the past to write TLR 2. Horus and Alpharius were right Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4499102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 How do you think the Last Remembrancer and PoD tie together chronologically? Does LR come before and by how much? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4499203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 On 9/12/2016 at 3:48 PM, Sviox said: How do you think the Last Remembrancer and PoD tie together chronologically? Does LR come before and by how much? Indications are Praetorian of Dorn is a couple of years after the Last Remembrancer. We know The Last Remembrancer takes place at the same time as Vengeful Spirit, which is in 31,009 (see Forge World's Book VI: Retribution, also fits with other events such as the end of the Thramas Crusade), and Praetorian of Dorn seems to be in 31,011 (Dorn put his defence protocols in place 6 years earlier, which would be when he returned there with Garro after Isstvan III in 005, and Sigismund has been fighting out on the fringes for 5 years after confessing to Dorn, which was in 006. Also fits with Path of Heaven and the Scars returning). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4499311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 On 9/12/2016 at 5:23 PM, Tymell said: On 9/12/2016 at 3:48 PM, Sviox said: How do you think the Last Remembrancer and PoD tie together chronologically? Does LR come before and by how much? Indications are Praetorian of Dorn is a couple of years after the Last Remembrancer. We know The Last Remembrancer takes place at the same time as Vengeful Spirit, which is in 31,009 (see Forge World's Book VI: Retribution, also fits with other events such as the end of the Thramas Crusade), and Praetorian of Dorn seems to be in 31,011 (Dorn put his defence protocols in place 6 years earlier, which would be when he returned there with Garro after Isstvan III in 005, and Sigismund has been fighting out on the fringes for 5 years after confessing to Dorn, which was in 006. Also fits with Path of Heaven and the Scars returning). Agreed, and with PoD after Vengeful Spirit so Cruze is "away." :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4499430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 On 9/12/2016 at 5:23 PM, Tymell said: On 9/12/2016 at 3:48 PM, Sviox said: How do you think the Last Remembrancer and PoD tie together chronologically? Does LR come before and by how much? Indications are Praetorian of Dorn is a couple of years after the Last Remembrancer. We know The Last Remembrancer takes place at the same time as Vengeful Spirit, which is in 31,009 (see Forge World's Book VI: Retribution, also fits with other events such as the end of the Thramas Crusade), and Praetorian of Dorn seems to be in 31,011 (Dorn put his defence protocols in place 6 years earlier, which would be when he returned there with Garro after Isstvan III in 005, and Sigismund has been fighting out on the fringes for 5 years after confessing to Dorn, which was in 006. Also fits with Path of Heaven and the Scars returning). Very precise estimate - thanks man Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4500418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 This book made me like Dorn more, which I thought could never happen, and even crazier since it happens in the same book where Reveal hidden contents he kills the Primarch of my primary Legion . It was nice seeing Voss again, however briefly. It made the Last Remembrancer more poignant in retrospect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4501301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soldier of Dorn Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 9/14/2016 at 4:25 AM, Terminus said: This book made me like Dorn more That is amazing. I mean, I knew it was a good book (Source: I read the damn thing,) but if it can convince you to like Dorn (I've seen your posts regarding my favorite primarch before, and though I can't say I agree with your view, I know what it is) it must be good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4501367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 9/10/2016 at 5:47 AM, Daddywarcrimes said: It seems like nothing from that book still counts, especially not the bit where the Fists have Dorn's entire skeleton (except the hands) encased in amber and on display.I don't know; am I the only one that saw the three Fist Neophytes going through their initiation trials together as a nod to Watson's trio in Space Marine? On 9/8/2016 at 2:09 PM, Mellow said: It has to be Alpharius. A normal marine couldn't move faster than a Primarc in solo combat. Right? Even with the boost of a Primarch's blood? Seriously, right?! Reveal hidden contents It was Alpharius. The twist is that Alpharius used his Librarians to take Silonius's memories and personality so that no one on Terra or in the greater Sol system could realize who he was. His agents had scattered the pieces of his spear throughout the Imperial Palace and amongst other agents. Those items and various conditions were meant to restore his memory and personality so he could carry out his mission. Silonius is later revealed to be aboard the Alpha, masquerading as Alpharius in the primarch's absence. Ingo Pesch and Mathias Herzog recognize him as such, as well. Finally, after Alpharius's death, we see Omegon and his reaction certainly points to him realizing his twin brother/shared soul is dead. The real question is what exactly it was that ... Reveal hidden contents ... Alpharius said to Dorn. Perhaps something along the lines of sharing with him the Acuity's vision? Anyways, my personal favorite part of the book was the foreshadowing offered by the Compliance that Dorn achieved alongside his brother: Reveal hidden contents He saw through his subterfuge, read to him a laundry list of how he could have carried out his subterfuge and sabotage operations better, and then dropped the mike. I had already been suspecting that Dorn took his fleet and left to lure Alpharius in, but at that point I was convinced the Praetorian was turning the tables on the Hydra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4501391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 9/14/2016 at 4:25 AM, Terminus said: This book made me like Dorn more, which I thought could never happen, and even crazier since it happens in the same book where Reveal hidden contents he kills the Primarch of my primary Legion . It was nice seeing Voss again, however briefly. It made the Last Remembrancer more poignant in retrospect. Exactly. And all the dialog with Dorn in the Last Remembrancer even more prosaic. On 9/14/2016 at 7:40 AM, Phoebus said: On 9/10/2016 at 5:47 AM, Daddywarcrimes said: It seems like nothing from that book still counts, especially not the bit where the Fists have Dorn's entire skeleton (except the hands) encased in amber and on display.I don't know; am I the only one that saw the three Fist Neophytes going through their initiation trials together as a nod to Watson's trio in Space Marine? On 9/8/2016 at 2:09 PM, Mellow said: It has to be Alpharius. A normal marine couldn't move faster than a Primarc in solo combat. Right? Even with the boost of a Primarch's blood? Seriously, right?! Reveal hidden contents It was Alpharius. The twist is that Alpharius used his Librarians to take Silonius's memories and personality so that no one on Terra or in the greater Sol system could realize who he was. His agents had scattered the pieces of his spear throughout the Imperial Palace and amongst other agents. Those items and various conditions were meant to restore his memory and personality so he could carry out his mission. Silonius is later revealed to be aboard the Alpha, masquerading as Alpharius in the primarch's absence. Ingo Pesch and Mathias Herzog recognize him as such, as well. Finally, after Alpharius's death, we see Omegon and his reaction certainly points to him realizing his twin brother/shared soul is dead. The real question is what exactly it was that ... Reveal hidden contents ... Alpharius said to Dorn. Perhaps something along the lines of sharing with him the Acuity's vision? Anyways, my personal favorite part of the book was the foreshadowing offered by the Compliance that Dorn achieved alongside his brother: Reveal hidden contents He saw through his subterfuge, read to him a laundry list of how he could have carried out his subterfuge and sabotage operations better, and then dropped the mike. I had already been suspecting that Dorn took his fleet and left to lure Alpharius in, but at that point I was convinced the Praetorian was turning the tables on the Hydra. Yes - but the words to Dorn is the most interesting stuff here. Cause Dorn (as a person responsible for Terra defense and safety) should have listen then someone is telling you - 'I KNOW THE WAY TO VICTORY, HOW TO SAVE YOUR FATHER, HOW TO SAVE THE DREAM'. The problem of IF as a Legion and their Primarch - that they are too blank, too straightforward and synced to pain to listen to anything somebody tells them. And that is the problem and flaw of both the Dorn and his Legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4501534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 In no way was Dorn wrong. Think about this objectively. Alpharius came to Sol, sabotaged Imperial installations, and ordered uprisings causing a horrific amount of damage. Subsequently, his invasion fleet dozens of VII Legion warships, the principal defenses of Pluto, and one of the main sensor/communications nodes of Sol, and killed hundreds - if not thousands - of Imperial Fists. His Legion's bywords are trickery, deception, and contingencies. In what world does it make sense to let Alpharius live? Why, so he can lie, manipulate, and misdirect before he pulls his latest ace out of his sleeve to disappear? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4501942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Alpharius had a very interesting definition of victory. I still can't believe the most secretive and scheming of the Primarchs took the Cabal's story at face value and acted on it. What a fool. I think ADB earlier in this thread commented that he doesn't like Alpha Legion because they are supposed to be a Legion, not 100,000 James Bonds. Except they aren't James Bonds, they are more like James Bond villains, with incredibly elaborate master plans that never amount to anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4502454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Alpharius and Omegon did not take the Cabal's story at face value. They were subjected to a psychic vision. Even if you argue that the vision was a fake, it would have to be of such power as to overcome a primarch's considerable mental defenses. The second we start ignoring that, we may as well roll our eyes and trash the entire premise of the series because "that fool Horus" believed the people in his dreams who alluded to the Emperor stealing his glory. I know I'm going to come off as Captain Negative now, but I wasn't really affected by the depiction of the Alpha Legion as Space Spy Marines because... Well, because I honestly thought that most of the legions were not handled in that great a manner to begin with. This is purely my opinion, but it wasn't until The First Heretic that I found myself thinking, "Hold on, now, these guys read like they have a culture, set of beliefs, and mentality that is all their own." Since then, honestly, only the Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Ultramarines, and World Eaters received a treatment that truly impressed me. Had The Path of Heaven been longer, I would have given Wraight the nod for his vision of the White Scars and the Emperor's Children. As it stands, though, while the other factions I listed feel less like, e.g., "Space Vikings" or "Space Spartan Romans" and more like their own thing, the White Scars still feel more like "Space Mongols" than anything else. That's a very long qualifier for me to say that I appreciate what Alan Bligh and John French did to give the Alpha Legion a culture and mentality that went beyond them just being conveniently omnipotent. The master stroke, however, came from French's handling of Rogal Dorn. Dorn, perhaps speaking to us the readers as much as to Alpharius, tells the primarch of the XX Legion that ... Reveal hidden contents ... the primarchs (or at least most of them) are what they are because of choice. Dorn isn't incapable of the Alpha Legion's subtle, nuanced machinations; he chooses to not employ them out of moral (or perhaps philosophical) considerations. He doesn't even stop there; he shows Alpharius up by spelling out for him precisely how much better he could have executed his favored sort of operation. In that one scene, French reminded us that the Alpha Legion are neither perfect nor omnipotent. They are highly skilled, expertly organized, and given to supreme planning and forethought. They are, however, led by perhaps the youngest of the primarchs and are almost certainly plagued by pride and overconfidence. Their successes thus far - and this is something the Heresy Team* should have spelled out better in earlier stories - are largely contingent on the fact that no one had a reason to distrust them prior to the Heresy** and that so many of the other legions were operating wrong-footed following the Isstvan V Dropsite Massacres. It's like, congratulations - you fooled the Iron Hands, whose leadership structure was decapitated, and the Raven Guard after they were almost exterminated. With all that in mind, the only real complaint I had from Praetorian was that we didn't really see Dorn after he departed. Had French maintained the same level of mystery with Dorn's intentions*** as he did with Alpharius's deliciously concocted scheme, the book would have come as close to a 10 as I can imagine. * Yes, even Rob Sanders, whose story in The Primarchs I loved! ** Not to the extent where they would deny them access to Sol, Terra, etc. *** Reveal hidden contents That is, keeping you guessing as to whether or not he had figured out the enemy's intentions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4502635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 right here we go. Reveal hidden contents i'm pretty shocked at the death of Alpharius........and not in a good way. but i think there are a few ways it can be fixed later. my feelings are it seems a bit odd for Legion to drop a bomb like the twins and then for someone else to come and undo that. so... its a little unclear as to whether Alpharius had silonius's memory's dumped on top of his or they did a full captain Ginu body swap. if they did swap its possible that Alpharius mind could somehow find its way back to his body. by itself or through a bunch of libbys plucking his soul from the warp. or if it was all Alpharius that was killed ( as people keep insisting ) its possible that two more Alphari ( ? ) could be created. when Silonius tasted the blood and got a flash of memory, he had a vision of being hit by a bolt shell, the feeling of being ripped in two, blinding light then death/rebirth. what if the reason there are twins is that when Alpharius gets killed he splits and his soul is reborn into two more bodies....a bit like a Hydra ( funny that ). the first time being the raid on horus's ship when they first met creating omegon, and this time creating 2 more Alphari. all in all a decent book though......apart from the end.........for me anyway............well at least we have a spare i guess. and now i hate Dorn, so there's that. and if all that fails i really hope its Omegon that cuts off that big golden tools hands like someone else mentioned Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4503774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 On 9/16/2016 at 12:56 AM, Ageis said: right here we go. Reveal hidden contents i'm pretty shocked at the death of Alpharius........and not in a good way. but i think there are a few ways it can be fixed later. my feelings are it seems a bit odd for Legion to drop a bomb like the twins and then for someone else to come and undo that. so... its a little unclear as to whether Alpharius had silonius's memory's dumped on top of his or they did a full captain Ginu body swap. if they did swap its possible that Alpharius mind could somehow find its way back to his body. by itself or through a bunch of libbys plucking his soul from the warp. or if it was all Alpharius that was killed ( as people keep insisting ) its possible that two more Alphari ( ? ) could be created. when Silonius tasted the blood and got a flash of memory, he had a vision of being hit by a bolt shell, the feeling of being ripped in two, blinding light then death/rebirth. what if the reason there are twins is that when Alpharius gets killed he splits and his soul is reborn into two more bodies....a bit like a Hydra ( funny that ). the first time being the raid on horus's ship when they first met creating omegon, and this time creating 2 more Alphari. all in all a decent book though......apart from the end.........for me anyway.......:(.....well at least we have a spare i guess. and now i hate Dorn, so there's that. and if all that fails i really hope its Omegon that cuts of that big golden tools hands like someone else mentioned You are entitled to dream Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/14/#findComment-4503811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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