Praetorian of Dorn

[Terminus]

^Many Legions used modern tactics, with Ultramarines probably an even better example. Both also took the time to fortify the planets they conquered.

Anyway, I think after 15 pages we can dispense with the spoiler tags.

Regarding Alpharius/Silonius. Dorn was able to identify his brother out of the three earlier on in the novel, but the scene was Alpharius practicing his masquerades. While Dorn said Alpharius did not make any mistakes, it's within the realm of possibility that Alpharius improved his craft and was indeed able to conceal himself better by the time he met Dorn again. In Wolf King, Russ was not able to immediately identify Alpharius out of his pack of Lerneans, and Russ has far more acute senses than Dorn. Also, Silonius was supposed to be the one to undergo psychic reconstruction, not Alpharius himself, and I was left wondering why Alpharius would bother overwriting himself with a Legionnaire's identity. As to how a marine could match a Primarch, they do have the complete records on the Emperor's primarch project they lifted from Corax. Make a super-Marine, pump him full of Primarch blood, psychically imprint another personality and go. The background for psychic reconstruction states it was used to "imprint the soul of an assassin into someone close and intimate with the target", so the puppet-Alpharius theory seems solid ... at least until you read the epilogue with Omegon. The latter seems pretty definitive. Regardless, the main point take-away point should be that the Legion continued operating undiminished by this loss, much like they were unfazed at Eskrador so many years later when they allegedly lost another gene-sire.

A more interesting discussion is what Alpharius was attempting to accomplish. If he was trying to "help" Dorn as his comments implied, then he did so by pointing out weaknesses in the defenses and forcing Dorn to improve on his defenses. It would make sense for the suspected mastermind behind Istvaan to be a proponent of Istvaanism. Or if it was just an assassination attempt (something Horus said Alpharius has been wanting to do for a while, prove himself superior to his biggest critic Dorn), then that was a spectacular failure. Well done Arachmus!

Regarding Dorn "telling Alpharius how to do his job better", Rogal's idea was foolish and just the kind of gibberish an amateur would try to come up with on the spot. He had no knowledge of the communication networks of the planet they were invading, yet somehow he could predict that at 37 hours they would start having trouble with communications, and then somehow that would translate to psychological instability he could control with pinpoint accuracy... all while still pursuing his default strategy of block by block shield-wall grindfest of a siege. He thought that on a planet where all enemy forces are controlled by a super arrogant family that refuses to capitulate under any circumstances, it is smarter to grind through hundreds of thousands of citizens and soldiers to finally somehow force these 410 family members to all agree to capitulate (so no one of them will ever decide to "fight to the death"), and then immediately hand control over the local administration back to them because apparently as soon as you bow to the Emperor you're automatically besties? As opposed to preserving the local infrastructure and safeguarding the population, and saving yourself the time and resources you would have expended on weeks of siegecraft, by killing all of these pricks in one hour. How childishly naive, no wonder Alpharius didn't even bother responding.

Still, I have a new understanding about Dorn. He's basically every lawful good paladin character my friends tried to play in the campaigns we ran in high school. They all ended up being driven mad by the hard choices forced upon them (sometimes with assistance from my universally neutral evil or chaotic neutral characters ), and either going full evil, or killing themselves.

Also, apparently the only weakness the Alpha Legion have in void warfare is surprise battle stations! In both Wolf King and Praetorian, their tactics were cleaning up until basically a deathstar shows up out of nowhere to blast them all to smithereens.

[DarkChaplain]

I'd agree that Alpharius would have been able to improve his masquerade plenty in the meantime, if "Brothers of War", where Dorn tells Alpharius off, wasn't set a MERE 6 YEARS before Isstvan III. After centuries of potential practice, with the events of Legion yet to occur, I can't see that making a difference.

[Terminus]

Centuries? Alpharius was discovered nearly towards the end of the Great Crusade, which itself was only 2-3 centuries depending on whether you lump Unification into it, so like ~50 years tops before it all went belly up.

[DarKnight]

I think the basis of Dorn's strategy was for the enemy to fight their absolute hardest then realize it was all for naught and there was no possible way their armies could defeat their crusade. Depending on the planets culture if there was no pitched battle they could completely be routed in, resistance might endure. Who knows, the Alpha's should be able to do everything the IF do if necessary, and with infiltrators be able to deal with a planet in the way that would ensure loyalty afterward but with the way they get portrayed as mustache twirlers why fight when you can plot and plot and plot?

[Terminus]

The conflict in question involved a royal family that had absolute control of the planet and the attitude of it being "theirs and theirs alone". Capitulation was not an option for them, and it was just a slow and steady grindfest. The Alpha Legion just decapitated the enemy, ending the conflict immediately and sparing everything else.  Dorn's idea and approach was far less efficient, and his choice to grind down the local population no less callous than Perturabo's approach.

[Phoebus]

In Wolf King, Russ was not able to immediately identify Alpharius out of his pack of Lerneans, and Russ has far more acute senses than Dorn.

Don't fall in the trap of assuming that John French and Chris Wraight were writing their respective books with full knowledge of the other's plot. That having been said, Russ would have probably been relying on his senses, whereas Dorn made a deduction.

 

Also, Silonius was supposed to be the one to undergo psychic reconstruction, not Alpharius himself, ...

I think keeping the reader in the dark was kind of the point! ;)

 

... and I was left wondering why Alpharius would bother overwriting himself with a Legionnaire's identity.

He explains as much; so that his true identity - and mission - would not be accidentally compromised.

 

A more interesting discussion is what Alpharius was attempting to accomplish. If he was trying to "help" Dorn as his comments implied, then he did so by pointing out weaknesses in the defenses and forcing Dorn to improve on his defenses. It would make sense for the suspected mastermind behind Istvaan to be a proponent of Istvaanism. Or if it was just an assassination attempt (something Horus said Alpharius has been wanting to do for a while, prove himself superior to his biggest critic Dorn), then that was a spectacular failure. Well done Arachmus!

I don't think Alpharius was trying to help Dorn at all. I think his objective, from the get-go, was to perform a Harrowing, as advertised. He only (apparently) made a revelation to Dorn after having his arms hacked off, being gutted, and finally being run through with his own spear - which appears to have been a mortal blow. My thought is that, facing his death, Alpharius felt the need to let Dorn know the truth about the Acuity and the Primordial Annihilator. After all, the idea is that Alpharius is still ostensibly loyal to the Emperor, and wants his Praetorian to know what is driving his treasonous actions.

 

Regarding Dorn "telling Alpharius how to do his job better", Rogal's idea was foolish and just the kind of gibberish an amateur would try to come up with on the spot.

With respect, you're offering your opinion on what a super-genius warlord with a century and change of galactic-level warfare could or could not surmise. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that Dorn had no knowledge of what he spoke of; we, as readers, certainly don't, but there's no evidence that he was opining out of ignorance.

 

Also, apparently the only weakness the Alpha Legion have in void warfare is surprise battle stations! In both Wolf King and Praetorian, their tactics were cleaning up until basically a deathstar shows up out of nowhere to blast them all to smithereens.

It's an unfortunate coincidence, but I think the real lesson is that the Alpha Legion are very good at planning and very good at being flexible when they have the advantage... but perhaps not as good at adapting when caught very wrong-footed.

[Phoebus]

The conflict in question involved a royal family that had absolute control of the planet and the attitude of it being "theirs and theirs alone". Capitulation was not an option for them, and it was just a slow and steady grindfest. The Alpha Legion just decapitated the enemy, ending the conflict immediately and sparing everything else.  Dorn's idea and approach was far less efficient, and his choice to grind down the local population no less callous than Perturabo's approach.

By that logic, though, no absolute monarchy would ever have suffered a coup, etc.

 

The fact of the matter is that said royal family will have relied on others to lead their armies. Not necessarily an overall commander, per se, but they will have had generals, colonels, etc. The same goes for the administration of their cities and industry. That's what Dorn is speaking to.

[Terminus]

Okay, so now the plan is to kill the populace until they are tired of dying for someone else's orders, and rebel against their overlords... and then you put those overlords back in charge after the dust settles?

 

 

 

Phoebus, on 17 Sept 2016 - 8:38 PM, said:

    With respect, you're offering your opinion on what a super-genius warlord with a century and change of galactic-level warfare could or could not surmise. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that Dorn had no knowledge of what he spoke of; we, as readers, certainly don't, but there's no evidence that he was opining out of ignorance.

    

It's a mode of warfare he has never experienced and actively makes the choice to deride and not to engage in. The logistics of what he suggests are ludicrous. That is enough to reach the conclusion.

[Phoebus]

The logistics of what he suggests are not even made known to you or I (as readers), so I'm still curious as to how you arrived at them being ludicrous. Our knowledge of the matter boils down to the handful of paragraphs John French has provided us as background and context. As readers, we can presume that Rogal Dorn is just offering ideas to Alpharius with no basis other than his imagination; or that he offered an objective conclusion arrived at following a careful consideration of all the available data from that conflict.

 

So no, respectfully speaking, it's not enough for you to reach a conclusion. We're talking about beings who popped out of incubation capsules and proceeded to master whatever sciences their adopted homeworlds had knowledge by the time you and I would be figuring out how to do decent finger paintings and write semi-legibly. We are quite literally talking about beings who are qualified as having superhuman intellects.

[Legatus]

He thought that on a planet where all enemy forces are controlled by a super arrogant family that refuses to capitulate under any circumstances, it is smarter to grind through hundreds of thousands of citizens and soldiers to finally somehow force these 410 family members to all agree to capitulate (so no one of them will ever decide to "fight to the death"), and then immediately hand control over the local administration back to them because apparently as soon as you bow to the Emperor you're automatically besties?  As opposed to preserving the local infrastructure and safeguarding the population, and saving yourself the time and resources you would have expended on weeks of siegecraft, by killing all of these pricks in one hour.  How childishly naive, no wonder Alpharius didn't even bother responding.

 

Was that the plan of the Alpha Legion? To just kill the leadership and be done with it? Because in the descriptions of the Alpha Legion's MO they usually do not stop with the decapitating strike. They just use that to cause confusion among the armed forces, only to then tear them all apart anyway. They were known for causing excessive and often unnecessary collateral damage in their campaigns, usually to test themselves or to demonstrate what they were capable of. They were widely criticised as wasteful and cruel in their methods, where more conventional warfare would have been more expedient.

 

But then I have not read this book. Maybe in this instance they really did plan to get it done quickly and painlessly.

[Augustus]

Unfortunately that kind of lore isn't really demonstrated in the Horus Heresy books. They're just the really James Bond-esque characters. It would have been nice to see that.

Like they assassinate all the leaders only to have rogue elements in the country start to turn on one another thereby destroying innocent lives and what not. They justify it because it saved Astartes' lives and and it frees them to proceed on rapidly nevermind someone has to spend the time to rake up the mess.

[Marshal Rohr]

This is why I didn't like the way they handled Dorn *destroying* the alpha legion's strategy (to you click baity news parlance). It wasn't at the right level and too case specific to be beyond argument. If it had been written as a philosophical refutation no one could argue Dorn was right.

[Phoebus]

But that's the thing. The conversation between Dorn and Alpharius starts with the philosophical disagreement. Dorn states Alpharius didn't need to kill the world's entire leadership. Alpharius asks if it would have been better had they ground through their warriors, instead, and if death is more acceptable if it's in open battle instead of assassination. Dorn clearly feels that way, on both a moral and practical level. Alpharius then brings up the familiar "we are as our father made us" defense. Dorn clearly disagrees with that notion, as well, and opines that they (the primarchs) are responsible for overcoming their own flaws.

 

Dorn subsequently "destroys" (and yeah, I hate that clickbait parlance, too) Alpharius on two levels. On a more obvious level, he points out to him how he could have waged his own campaign better. That's not a refutation of an entire principle or mode of war by pointing out the flaws in one example, though. Rather, it's a way of making a more a more subtle point. What Dorn is saying to Alpharius essentially boils down to: "What you do is a choice, not your birthright. I could do this, if I wanted to. I don't."

[Terminus]

The logistics of what he suggests are not even made known to you or I (as readers), so I'm still curious as to how you arrived at them being ludicrous. Our knowledge of the matter boils down to the handful of paragraphs John French has provided us as background and context. As readers, we can presume that Rogal Dorn is just offering ideas to Alpharius with no basis other than his imagination; or that he offered an objective conclusion arrived at following a careful consideration of all the available data from that conflict.

 

So no, respectfully speaking, it's not enough for you to reach a conclusion. We're talking about beings who popped out of incubation capsules and proceeded to master whatever sciences their adopted homeworlds had knowledge by the time you and I would be figuring out how to do decent finger paintings and write semi-legibly. We are quite literally talking about beings who are qualified as having superhuman intellects.

Dorn's "intellect" is demonstrated many a time throughout the Heresy and after, and he essentially amounts to an emotional idealist with a talent for architecture. His approach in this particular theater of war clearly showed his folly.  It would have been better to kill hundreds of thousands on "honorable" open battle, rather than kill 410 of 411 rebel leaders and have the last one surrender.

 

Anyway, regarding Alpharius' objective, after re-reading those passages again, I am of the mind that Alpharius was just trying to assassinate Dorn, what with all the "I have come for you, brother!" dialogue.  That same earlier scene where Dorn berates Alpharius for his tactics, Alpharius seems to be convinced that guile and misdirection were the purpose for which the Emperor created him, and those methods are how he could best serve Him.  Alpharius did talk about bringing "victory" to Dorn, but if we assume he's operating based on parameters set up in Legion, his idea of victory is the destruction of all mankind.  It would be an incredibly heavy blow to the Imperium if the first wave of attacks took out their forward observation center, gutted the entire first line of defense, and killed the Praetorian himself.  The war would basically be over then and there.  Ambitious.  Full points for effort.

[Roomsky]

I sort of figured Apharius had something of a flow-chart plan in which personal failure was never considered.

 

1: Send forces ahead to destabilise Sol system for Alpha Legion invasion, while giving Dorn a decoy to move the Phalanx away.

Does Dorn return? Yes: go to 2. No: Victory

 

2: Lure Dorn into direct combat. Do you have the upper hand?

Yes: Victory. No: Convince him you fight for the universe's best interests using your stunning good looks and unmatched charisma, victory.

 

I don't think Alpharius ever really believed Dorn would be able to kill him, he shot himself in the foot with his own hubris.

[Phoebus]

Dorn's "intellect" is demonstrated many a time throughout the Heresy and after, and he essentially amounts to an emotional idealist with a talent for architecture.

Welcome to a fictional universe that is shared by several authors, each of whom varies in terms of individual ability to convey a concept and in how they view any given character.

 

That having been said, idealism dictates what actions you will undertake. It doesn't necessarily preclude your powers of observation.

 

His approach in this particular theater of war clearly showed his folly.  It would have been better to kill hundreds of thousands on "honorable" open battle, rather than kill 410 of 411 rebel leaders and have the last one surrender.

With respect, I think you're missing the point. This isn't about passing judgment or assigning value to Dorn's choices. Dorn feels Compliance via overwhelming victory at conventional warfare is morally more acceptable than subterfuge, sabotage, and assassination? Fine. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that his way is right. The point is that, despite these beliefs, Dorn remains a warlord of superhuman genius with more than a century of experience at interstellar warfare, and wholly capable of waging "more nuanced" warfare. Previous authors may have failed to convey this concept. Fair enough. That doesn't change the fact that this is what Dorn is, and we shouldn't hold it against authors who do try to show it.

 

Regarding what Alpharius was trying to achieve, I'm not sure assassination was in the cards. Alpharius was heading to specific locations, and none of those specifically involved bringing him within striking distance of Rogal Dorn. His Harrowing appears to have been aimed at causing widespread destabilization, but was primarily aimed at destroying the defenses, communications systems, and forces associated with the First Sphere.

[Terminus]

My assertions are as follows, whatever mythical abilities you want to ascribe to Dorn. Russ has better senses than Dorn. Alpharius is better at being sneaky than Dorn. Even if you discard all the actual written examples of Dorn's relative buffoonery, the previous two sentences are about as absolute as it gets. Regardless, the discussion of the Primarchs' individual value systems and skillsets is somewhat off-topic, or at least not the most interesting subject.

 

Regarding Alpharius' motives, simply destroying all of those things doesn't mean anything if the Imperium is aware of their destruction, as they would just repair and shore up any defenses (which is what ended up happening). Since the astropaths were the first to be silenced, Alpharius intended to take over the first sphere of defense without anyone knowing.  As he said to Arachmus, "Within two hours Pluto and all of its moons will be ours, and no one will know."  It would be the typical Alpha Legion psychological attack, "oh no, Horus's forces are coming... what?! the entire first line of defense just turned against us?!", where you are betrayed at a moment of crisis by those supposedly closest to you.

 

Of course, that's stupid because he started the whole mission by letting Dorn know that he was there... so of course they would know, and the destruction of all of those assets would be meaningless.  And I think that's where the whole arrogance of the Alpha Legion is played up, and why I think Alpharius was trying to assassinate Dorn as well. After all, in typical Bond villain style, you can reveal your plans to the protagonist if you intend to kill him afterward *insert eye roll here*.

 

The whole thing started with Alpharius blowing up all of the statues of the Primarchs except his own and that of Dorn. That is not a provocation for a duel? Then when instead of Dorn it was Arachmus that showed up on Hydra Station (badump tish), Alpharius said "Poor Archamus. I wondered which bait my brother would take, but it seems that he has left you to die in his place." Remember Dorn initially wanted to rush off himself, but after a stern talking-to from Malcador about not letting himself fall into Alpharius's rhythm, he assigns the job to Arachmus instead. But then when Dorn did show up, Alpharius' dialogue goes as follows:

 

I came here for you, Rogal. This is about victory. True victory. Look at this. Look at what I have done here. This is not a war you can win your way. But you are blind to what you are fighting. We are both fighting for the future, Rogal. I did this so that you would understand. So that you would see that you cannot win. I am not here to kill you, brother. I am not here for Horus. I am here to give you victory. I know the enemy, I know your weakness, and theirs. I know the truth. I can give you victory, brother.

 

He is of course trying to kill Dorn this whole time, with Arachmus deflecting the last perfect thrust that "was ruin and death and silence without end". If Alpharius wasn't trying to assassinate him, then he was trying to convert him, which is even dumber than telling James Bond your master plan and walking out of the room before the deathtrap does its job.

[b1soul]

Did John French write Dorn as a buffoon? If not, you might want to discard any assumption of character consistency among different authours tackling the same character

 

Regarding the last "perfect" (in Archamus’ opinion) thrust...I find it hard to believe that Dorn would be oblivious to something Archamus saw coming

[Terminus]

There were elements of buffoonery, sure.  The only other interpretation is to read him as this super perfect awesome tactician of awesomeness that is better at everything, which is even worse than a buffoon.  You can see a lot more from a 3rd person perspective than in the narrow confines of combat.  Alpharius struck three times, the first Dorn was able to parry, the second carved him open, and the third was poised to finish the job before Arachmus interfered.

[Phoebus]

My assertions are as follows, whatever mythical abilities you want to ascribe to Dorn. Russ has better senses than Dorn. Alpharius is better at being sneaky than Dorn. Even if you discard all the actual written examples of Dorn's relative buffoonery, the previous two sentences are about as absolute as it gets. Regardless, the discussion of the Primarchs' individual value systems and skillsets is somewhat off-topic, or at least not the most interesting subject.

Respectfully, I'm not worried about individual value systems, either. I was just pointing out that it was apples and oranges. It's not like Dorn outsniffed Russ; he admitted to Alpharius that it was a deduction that led him to recognize his brother.

 

Beyond that, you keep going on about buffoonery, and I'm just not sure how it helps the discussion.

 

Regarding Alpharius' motives, simply destroying all of those things doesn't mean anything if the Imperium is aware of their destruction, as they would just repair and shore up any defenses (which is what ended up happening). Since the astropaths were the first to be silenced, Alpharius intended to take over the first sphere of defense without anyone knowing.  As he said to Arachmus, "Within two hours Pluto and all of its moons will be ours, and no one will know."  It would be the typical Alpha Legion psychological attack, "oh no, Horus's forces are coming... what?! the entire first line of defense just turned against us?!", where you are betrayed at a moment of crisis by those supposedly closest to you.

I'm not so sure about all that.

 

Reading those last chapters again, one thing seems obvious to me: Alpharius is intent on eliminating the defenses of the First Sphere. That much is a given. It also seems plausible that, as part of that scheme, Alpharius may have also set up a trap for Rogal Dorn. I say he may have done so because the teleport trap Alpharius set up could have really been set up as a contingency against any reinforcements coming to the rescue of Hydra. Now, Alpharius may have done so kill Dorn; to somehow turn his brother with knowledge he gained from the Acuity; or to kill him should he not be able to turn him. I'm of the mind that Alpharius was aiming for the third of the three. I don't think Alpharius was ever counting on Dorn arriving alone, so a large-scale fight must always have been in the cards, and there's no way he could have controlled all the variables. Nonetheless, it seems like Alpharius is very intent on getting Dorn to listen to him. The sequence after he spears his brother through the shoulder is telling: rather than press his advantage, Alpharius keeps talking.

 

As for no one in the Imperium knowing the First Sphere fell? I don't know, I think that's a stretch. Alpharius made sure that people knew the Alpha Legion was involved. Even if Dorn actively sought to suppress knowledge of the initial efforts, too much pointing to the XXth Legion was unleashed in the last few chapters for such a subterfuge to hold. I think it's far more likely Alpharius was looking to destroy the outer defenses, and possibly to remove a primarch from the playing board. Given that, at the time, two thirds of a single legion was guarding Sol (albeit with the White Scars' imminent arrival unknown to any involved), a victory would have essentially meant Horus and his allies would be one third of the way to Terra, with minimum losses.

 

Of course, that's stupid because he started the whole mission by letting Dorn know that he was there... so of course they would know, and the destruction of all of those assets would be meaningless.  And I think that's where the whole arrogance of the Alpha Legion is played up, and why I think Alpharius was trying to assassinate Dorn as well. After all, in typical Bond villain style, you can reveal your plans to the protagonist if you intend to kill him afterward *insert eye roll here*.

 

If Alpharius wasn't trying to assassinate him, then he was trying to convert him, which is even dumber than telling James Bond your master plan and walking out of the room before the deathtrap does its job.

Not really; no information was actually conveyed, any information Alpharius did reveal to Dorn could hardly hinder his or Horus's cause. How does revealing that Horus has to win to prevent the rest of the Galaxy from suffering ten millennia of slow death somehow hurt the Traitors' strategy? The sum of Alpharius's appearances in this series appear to portray a primarch who, despite his ruthless machinations, was genuinely loyal to the Emperor and his dream. He probably sincerely believed that he was made to be what he was. With that in mind, it's not impossible that Alpharius possessed a degree of unreciprocated respect toward some of his brothers, and that he may have desired to let them know what the truth was.

 

There were elements of buffoonery, sure.  The only other interpretation is to read him as this super perfect awesome tactician of awesomeness that is better at everything, which is even worse than a buffoon.

Or, you know, it could be neither of the above, and that hyperbole misses the mark in either case. Rogal Dorn is no buffoon, nor is he "better at everything." He, like all other primarchs (minus the most damaged ones, I'd argue) is, however, a warlord who possesses a superhuman intellect and close to two centuries of experience waging war against countless cultures and species. It seems you're frustrated that previous depictions of him (of most primarchs, really) have been underwhelming, but I don't see why we should hold it against French for trying to show how miraculous such genius would appear.

 

You can see a lot more from a 3rd person perspective than in the narrow confines of combat.  Alpharius struck three times, the first Dorn was able to parry, the second carved him open, and the third was poised to finish the job before Arachmus interfered.

Can you elaborate on your point here?

[HeritorA]

^Many Legions used modern tactics, with Ultramarines probably an even better example. Both also took the time to fortify the planets they conquered.

Anyway, I think after 15 pages we can dispense with the spoiler tags.

Regarding Alpharius/Silonius. Dorn was able to identify his brother out of the three earlier on in the novel, but the scene was Alpharius practicing his masquerades. While Dorn said Alpharius did not make any mistakes, it's within the realm of possibility that Alpharius improved his craft and was indeed able to conceal himself better by the time he met Dorn again. In Wolf King, Russ was not able to immediately identify Alpharius out of his pack of Lerneans, and Russ has far more acute senses than Dorn. Also, Silonius was supposed to be the one to undergo psychic reconstruction, not Alpharius himself, and I was left wondering why Alpharius would bother overwriting himself with a Legionnaire's identity. As to how a marine could match a Primarch, they do have the complete records on the Emperor's primarch project they lifted from Corax. Make a super-Marine, pump him full of Primarch blood, psychically imprint another personality and go. The background for psychic reconstruction states it was used to "imprint the soul of an assassin into someone close and intimate with the target", so the puppet-Alpharius theory seems solid ... at least until you read the epilogue with Omegon. The latter seems pretty definitive. Regardless, the main point take-away point should be that the Legion continued operating undiminished by this loss, much like they were unfazed at Eskrador so many years later when they allegedly lost another gene-sire.

A more interesting discussion is what Alpharius was attempting to accomplish. If he was trying to "help" Dorn as his comments implied, then he did so by pointing out weaknesses in the defenses and forcing Dorn to improve on his defenses. It would make sense for the suspected mastermind behind Istvaan to be a proponent of Istvaanism. Or if it was just an assassination attempt (something Horus said Alpharius has been wanting to do for a while, prove himself superior to his biggest critic Dorn), then that was a spectacular failure. Well done Arachmus!

Regarding Dorn "telling Alpharius how to do his job better", Rogal's idea was foolish and just the kind of gibberish an amateur would try to come up with on the spot. He had no knowledge of the communication networks of the planet they were invading, yet somehow he could predict that at 37 hours they would start having trouble with communications, and then somehow that would translate to psychological instability he could control with pinpoint accuracy... all while still pursuing his default strategy of block by block shield-wall grindfest of a siege. He thought that on a planet where all enemy forces are controlled by a super arrogant family that refuses to capitulate under any circumstances, it is smarter to grind through hundreds of thousands of citizens and soldiers to finally somehow force these 410 family members to all agree to capitulate (so no one of them will ever decide to "fight to the death"), and then immediately hand control over the local administration back to them because apparently as soon as you bow to the Emperor you're automatically besties? As opposed to preserving the local infrastructure and safeguarding the population, and saving yourself the time and resources you would have expended on weeks of siegecraft, by killing all of these pricks in one hour. How childishly naive, no wonder Alpharius didn't even bother responding.

Still, I have a new understanding about Dorn. He's basically every lawful good paladin character my friends tried to play in the campaigns we ran in high school. They all ended up being driven mad by the hard choices forced upon them (sometimes with assistance from my universally neutral evil or chaotic neutral characters ), and either going full evil, or killing themselves.

Also, apparently the only weakness the Alpha Legion have in void warfare is surprise battle stations! In both Wolf King and Praetorian, their tactics were cleaning up until basically a deathstar shows up out of nowhere to blast them all to smithereens.

That's awesome man

But that's the thing. The conversation between Dorn and Alpharius starts with the philosophical disagreement. Dorn states Alpharius didn't need to kill the world's entire leadership. Alpharius asks if it would have been better had they ground through their warriors, instead, and if death is more acceptable if it's in open battle instead of assassination. Dorn clearly feels that way, on both a moral and practical level. Alpharius then brings up the familiar "we are as our father made us" defense. Dorn clearly disagrees with that notion, as well, and opines that they (the primarchs) are responsible for overcoming their own flaws.

Dorn subsequently "destroys" (and yeah, I hate that clickbait parlance, too) Alpharius on two levels. On a more obvious level, he points out to him how he could have waged his own campaign better. That's not a refutation of an entire principle or mode of war by pointing out the flaws in one example, though. Rather, it's a way of making a more a more subtle point. What Dorn is saying to Alpharius essentially boils down to: "What you do is a choice, not your birthright. I could do this, if I wanted to. I don't."

Dorn thinks he did - but let be honest - what PoD verify: is that IF and their Primarch are incapable of strategical thinking outside the scope of strategium and lines. Morale, choices, crossroads and several scopes of definition of done is not for them. And sadly that was cemented by the Siege of Terra, because

There were elements of buffoonery, sure. The only other interpretation is to read him as this super perfect awesome tactician of awesomeness that is better at everything, which is even worse than a buffoon. You can see a lot more from a 3rd person perspective than in the narrow confines of combat. Alpharius struck three times, the first Dorn was able to parry, the second carved him open, and the third was poised to finish the job before Arachmus interfered.

Exactly

[Perrin]

Had a thought about Alpharius:

 

 

What if the Alpharius that died was a clone made using the tech stolen from the RG, and the real Alpharius used his Librarians to transfer his soul link with Omegon to the clone?

 

Using the RG gene tech accounts for him being stronger than the IF marines, and being able to briefly go toe-to-toe with Dorn.

 

Reading about Eskrador made me think about the soul bond switch. If an Alpha Legion civil war was on the cards then having Omegon think he was dead would give Alpharius a huge advantage. It is also similar to what they probably did with the Eskrador battle report.

 

 

This might be wishful thinking, as I really liked the thought of an AL civil war. Also felt that "Alpharius" went down way too easily for a Primarch, even if he was gloating like a bond villain.

 

[TheAlephNull]

Had a thought about Alpharius:

 

 

What if the Alpharius that died was a clone made using the tech stolen from the RG, and the real Alpharius used his Librarians to transfer his soul link with Omegon to the clone?

 

Using the RG gene tech accounts for him being stronger than the IF marines, and being able to briefly go toe-to-toe with Dorn.

 

Reading about Eskrador made me think about the soul bond switch. If an Alpha Legion civil war was on the cards then having Omegon think he was dead would give Alpharius a huge advantage. It is also similar to what they probably did with the Eskrador battle report.

 

 

This might be wishful thinking, as I really liked the thought of an AL civil war. Also felt that "Alpharius" went down way too easily for a Primarch, even if he was gloating like a bond villain.

 

Agreed, I looked forward to a Legion war with both sides pursuing the same end, much like the XX Society from WWII that I can only assume the XX Legion is based upon. As awesome as this book is, it seems like a waste to simply write that away.

[DarkChaplain]

Had a thought about Alpharius:

 

 

What if the Alpharius that died was a clone made using the tech stolen from the RG, and the real Alpharius used his Librarians to transfer his soul link with Omegon to the clone?

 

Using the RG gene tech accounts for him being stronger than the IF marines, and being able to briefly go toe-to-toe with Dorn.

 

Reading about Eskrador made me think about the soul bond switch. If an Alpha Legion civil war was on the cards then having Omegon think he was dead would give Alpharius a huge advantage. It is also similar to what they probably did with the Eskrador battle report.

 

 

This might be wishful thinking, as I really liked the thought of an AL civil war. Also felt that "Alpharius" went down way too easily for a Primarch, even if he was gloating like a bond villain.

 

 

Eskrador was never clearly explained. There was always an element of doubt in there on whether it really was Alpharius or not.

[Terminus]

@Perrin - I've had the same thought. Make a super Astartes from Corax's formula (their eventual genetic instability is meaningless if they are disposable), give it a transfusion of Primarch blood, and psychically imprint Alpharius' soul underneath another persona (specifically the original purpose of the psychic reconstruction technique), and boom, you have an assassin who could stand toe-to-toe with a Primarch.  If he dies, Omegon feels the separation and thinks himself alone, and now Alpharius has concealed himself from the brother most dangerous to him (Omegon at this point already acted several times against Alpharius/Cabal interests).  The fact that Alpharius literally had no exit strategy even if he succeeded killing Dorn lends some credence to this theory.

 

@Phoebus, I specifically quoted where Alpharius states "in a few hours Pluto and its moons will be ours and no one will know".  He had pretty much destroyed the first sphere by that point.  All the personnel were gassed to insanity and had killed each other, the astropaths were silenced, the orbital weapons platforms destroyed or taken over, the local fleet assets in a position to be destroyed by a "200% numerical superiority" Alpha fleet... And all of that is meaningless if the Imperium is aware of his presence and there is no back-up from the rest of the Traitors, because it's child's play to destroy an isolated enemy in your territory and then just build the defenses stronger than before (i.e. exactly what happened).  Again, if the Imperium knows he is there, and the Traitors are not right around the corner, then all of his efforts are meaningless.  Converting/killing Dorn is the only route that is a net positive for the operation

 

Assuming we're taking their turn in Legion at face value (a book I personally hated, but one apparently beloved by John French based on his interviews), Alpharius' dialogue doesn't come across as an attempt to discuss, but rather deranged ravings. The "true victory" he is talking about is the destruction of all humanity.  "Loyalty" is a real flimsy reason to assume the Emperor doesn't know anything about the warp or its machinations, and that you know better than him how to accomplish his goal (and that "better" is species suicide).  The Emperor's ideal was very clearly "humanity first, survival at all costs".  The only avenues that seem plausible is that either Alpharius was psychically overwhelmed by the vision (which I think you or someone else suggested before, which seems unlikely given we're still dealing with a Primarch), or he saw the mess of the future and decided that humanity was better off dead.  Regardless, it was a really dumb plot-line and I'm glad it's dead along with Alpharius.  We still have a spare who seems more reasonable.